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Pontecorvo

 

Posts: 30
Joined: Jul. 18 2021
 

Is this an authentic Conde? 

Hi everybody,

I’m from Europe and I’m new on this forum.

Last week I purchased a Conde guitar on Reverb from a German seller (a guitar store), it’s a 2002 model.
I have been playing a studio model Conde for years now, but it has always been my dream to own a good Media Luna model.

The bad part about purchasing an instrument this way is of course the fact that you can’t play it, or see it in person.
The good part is that it was on 20% sale for a short period of time.
So I took the gamble.
I think it was a good price, I also think that if I am not happy with the guitar I can sell it for at least about the same price I payed, it’s a Conde and I know that name will sell.

I am about to pay for the guitar, so then it’s definitive.
Maybe it’s kind of stupid because I did some research on the seller and no negative things can’t be found (it’s a guitar store that is completely into Spanish guitars), but it’s been said that there are fake Conde’s among us, and it’s still a lot of money that I pay.

I would really like your opinions about this guitar, and would like to know if there is any sign that this can be not a real Conde.

I have uploaded some pictures of the guitar.

Thanks for now!









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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 18 2021 15:57:20
 
RobF

Posts: 1318
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: Is this an authentic Conde? (in reply to Pontecorvo

Hi Pontecorvo,

It looks like a Conde that’s had it’s high-end Fustero tuners swapped out for cheap-ass replacements. This swap is often done by the European stores and I don’t know why the consumer tolerates it. It means the guitar is no longer original and is worth about €500 less than one that hasn’t been messed with.

That being said, there is also no such a thing as 20% off, or any amount of discount for that matter, on a used instrument. How can there be?

If you haven’t paid for it yet, I’d walk away from this one. It might be a nice guitar, and it does look authentic, but what with the swapped tuners and the 20% off BS I personally wouldn’t buy from this shop.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 18 2021 16:26:03
 
Pontecorvo

 

Posts: 30
Joined: Jul. 18 2021
 

RE: Is this an authentic Conde? (in reply to Pontecorvo

Some more pictures









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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 18 2021 16:36:26
 
Pontecorvo

 

Posts: 30
Joined: Jul. 18 2021
 

RE: Is this an authentic Conde? (in reply to Pontecorvo

Headstock



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 18 2021 16:38:36
 
Pontecorvo

 

Posts: 30
Joined: Jul. 18 2021
 

RE: Is this an authentic Conde? (in reply to RobF

Thanks.

I did a lot of comparisons online, and these tuners are on these guitars everywhere, so I wonder if they’re not original.
But I’m no expert at all when it comes to tuners.
To me they look as very fine tuners, a lot better than the ones on my studio model for sure.

I do think 20% off for a while is possible, why shouldn’t it be?
Sometimes stores do these kind of things.
I had an electric guitar store myself for years, we too did this, as for instance some kind of weekend deal or in holidays.

I really appreciate your reaction but I wonder if you’re right, and if this can be seen from above (I only posted a picture from above before your reaction).
Maybe you are, I would really like to hear some more opinions on this and I will surely try to get some more info myself.

But even when these are not the original tuners that came on the guitar in 2002, is that a reason to pass?
I also never mentioned what I must pay for the instrument, you don’t know.
So I think the ‘passing’ part is a bit too much to say at this moment.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 18 2021 16:55:46
 
Echi

 

Posts: 980
Joined: Jan. 11 2013
 

RE: Is this an authentic Conde? (in reply to Pontecorvo

quote:

means the guitar is no longer original and is worth about €500 less than one that hasn’t been messed with.

I don’t agree with that. To have the tuners replaced doesn’t mean the guitar is messed up or no longer original.
Btw Conde often used cheap Fustero tuners and you make just a favour to yourself to upgrade them… Fustero are still for sale in case you want to come back to the original.
Where I agree with Rob is that usually you don’t replace the tuners of an expensive guitar with cheap chinese branded tuners as in this case.

In this case my gut feeling suggest me not to buy that guitar
I have the feeling that Conde can be not original even though I cannot prove it without taking a look at the bracing: that rosette is a typical Ramirez rosette I have never seen on a Conde.
Take a look at this website (or Solera flamenca) and compare the details:
https://www.flamenco-guitar.net/museum/hermanos-conde/

That blue stamp on the counter heel reminds me a series of fake Condes (usually dated 2011-2012) which appeared on the bay in the last year. The media luna shape doesn’t look right to me either. In those years the Gravina Conde headstock used to have different shape. The red label is common for 2012 but not coherent for 2002 (even though the signature of Juliana Conde seems correct).
Again: mine are just speculations without inspecting the guitar but this is my gut feeling.
The German shop may be unaware about this but if you ask me, I wouldn’t buy it.
Good luck.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 18 2021 18:43:03
 
Pontecorvo

 

Posts: 30
Joined: Jul. 18 2021
 

RE: Is this an authentic Conde? (in reply to Echi

Only thing I know for sure is that I have a friend that owns a Conde with exactly the same rosette.
He bought that guitar straight from Conde in early 2000’s.

As being said the shop is specialized in Spanish guitars, they do a lot of import.
I had contact with the manager and he said he personally picked this guitar up in Spain, it comes out of a private collection.
He had three, I could choose, I liked this rosette the most.

He has two more online on Reverb, about the same price, one with the rosette Paco de Lucia used, as we speak.

I compared the headstock to online headstocks from that same period, and I don’t notice any difference though.

Since I bought my studio model straight from Conde, I think they will remember me.
I just did sent them the pictures and my questions.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 18 2021 19:03:54
 
Echi

 

Posts: 980
Joined: Jan. 11 2013
 

RE: Is this an authentic Conde? (in reply to Pontecorvo

https://www.flamenco-guitar.net/museum/hermanos-conde/rosettes/
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 18 2021 19:31:51
 
Pontecorvo

 

Posts: 30
Joined: Jul. 18 2021
 

RE: Is this an authentic Conde? (in reply to Echi

Thanks.

But are these ‘all’ the rosettes?
It just says ‘rosettes from all areas’.

As I said I know someone who has this rosette on a 100% original Conde Media Luna.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 18 2021 19:38:34
 
RobF

Posts: 1318
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: Is this an authentic Conde? (in reply to Echi

quote:

I don’t agree with that. To have the tuners replaced doesn’t mean the guitar is messed up or no longer original.


I’m sorry Echi, but replacing the tuners on a guitar absolutely does mean that it is no longer original. Doesn’t even matter if it’s high-end, hand-engraved, genuine gold-plated tuners being replaced with garbage or if the replacements are of equal quality and value. If the tuners are not original then the guitar is not original.

Whether that matters to people or not is another question, altogether.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 18 2021 19:39:38
 
Pontecorvo

 

Posts: 30
Joined: Jul. 18 2021
 

RE: Is this an authentic Conde? (in reply to RobF

I think you are both right/wrong.
It is just how you see things.

I am asking if the guitar is authentic. By that I mean the guitar.
Wether the tuners are upgraded or downgraded doesn’t mean that much to me in this case.

I want to know if this is a real Conde guitar or not.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 18 2021 20:02:44
 
Echi

 

Posts: 980
Joined: Jan. 11 2013
 

RE: Is this an authentic Conde? (in reply to Pontecorvo

Rob, I respect your idea, but I don’t agree and frankly I know no dealer who would cut the price of a guitar for a matter of tuners.
I saw this happening just in case of expensive tuners, like Bouchet handcrafted tuners or Rodgers but really never with Fustero.
Ordinary Fustero tuners used to be a cheap standard for any guitar made in Spain except for few premium models (the silver plated model used by Arcangel, the Fleta model and no else).
Tuners used in 2002 by Conde of Calle Gravina often were standard Fustero in the cheap side; being Fustero still in the market whoever can buy a pair of tuners and the guitar would be back to his “original” state.

I agree with you the actual tuners are crap, which means you may add the price for better tuners (100-200 euro).

Re the rosette: it’s a cheap version of a motif used by Ramirez in the ‘70 and in recent years.
It’s possible Conde used it, I just don’t remember to have ever seen it.
I once spotted a Conde with a wrong rosette (with the Bellido motif) and eventually the guitar turned out to be a Sanchis 2AF with a fake Conde label and a modified headstock.
Of course it’s possible in this case the guitar is not a fake and I’m getting fooled: if you ask me, just by the pictures you posted, I have some doubts it’s an original Conde and I’m sharing them just for your own sake.
It’s not just about the rosette: it’s about the rosette, the headstock, the label and the stamp: nothing is completely wrong but all of them are unusual details and common with some fake 2011 Conde which recently appeared on the bay.


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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 18 2021 20:03:12
 
RobF

Posts: 1318
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: Is this an authentic Conde? (in reply to Pontecorvo

quote:

I really appreciate your reaction but I wonder if you’re right, and if this can be seen from above (I only posted a picture from above before your reaction).
Maybe you are, I would really like to hear some more opinions on this and I will surely try to get some more info myself.

Well, you joined the Foro seeking free advice and opinions and have received some. You can decide what to do with it and members can also decide if helping you is worth their effort.

I think sometimes common sense has to apply. To my eye, which, when it comes to guitars, is quite likely better than your eye, the guitar looks like a Conde of that era. They are very nicely made. They had nice Fustero tuners. I owned one of that vintage. It was beautifully crafted. It had nice Fustero tuners. It was also the second worst sounding guitar I’ve ever owned, the worst being another high end Madrid guitar made by a different famous person in the same time frame, also beautifully crafted, and also with nice Fustero tuners. Maybe swapping out the nice Fustero tuners and putting in garbage piece of crap tuners is the secret solution to making these beautifully crafted terrible sounding guitars work better? I don’t know, what do I know?

This thread reminds me of something Oscar Wilde once said about gardening.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 18 2021 20:07:02
 
Pontecorvo

 

Posts: 30
Joined: Jul. 18 2021
 

RE: Is this an authentic Conde? (in reply to Echi

I appreciate your help, really.
But like you said yourself: you don’t know for sure.
Let’s wait what Conde himself says.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 18 2021 20:11:58
 
Pontecorvo

 

Posts: 30
Joined: Jul. 18 2021
 

RE: Is this an authentic Conde? (in reply to RobF

You kinda make me laugh, Rob. And I don’t mean that negative.
You’re absolutely right.
But your ears aren’t mine, and that Conde of yours is not this one.
So yeah, what do we know.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 18 2021 20:14:57
 
RobF

Posts: 1318
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: Is this an authentic Conde? (in reply to Echi

quote:

Rob, I respect your idea, but I don’t agree and frankly I know no dealer who would cut the price of a guitar for a matter of tuners.

I don’t want to get into an argument about this, especially in this thread, but any dealer who says there is no difference in value between tuners from original is simply being unethical and dishonest.

The hand engraved gold plated Fusteros were affordable at maker prices back then, I know this because I bought from them and I know what I paid, but the current value today is significantly higher, maybe ten times higher now. It’s funny how as the street value of the last of the hand engraved Fusteros increased they started disappearing off of the guitars in shops, only to be replaced by tuners of lesser value. So, when a dealer says it makes no difference, who cares, they are liars, that’s all.

Just like believing in discounts on used items. What’s happened to common sense?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 18 2021 20:15:28
 
Pontecorvo

 

Posts: 30
Joined: Jul. 18 2021
 

RE: Is this an authentic Conde? (in reply to RobF

Of course there is a difference in value, original components is what value is about.

In this case it’s not that important to me (I said this before), although I’d like to know if these were originally on the guitar in 2002.

What matters to me is if this is a Conde guitar or not.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 18 2021 20:25:17
 
Echi

 

Posts: 980
Joined: Jan. 11 2013
 

RE: Is this an authentic Conde? (in reply to Pontecorvo

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/184755710221
Here above a current auction of a 2012 Conde guitar identical to your 2002 but the rosette.
Both are quite unusual Condes as I explained above and it is extremely unusual to find 2 Condes like that for sale at the same time.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 18 2021 20:37:21
 
RobF

Posts: 1318
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: Is this an authentic Conde? (in reply to Pontecorvo

quote:

What matters to me is if this is a Conde guitar or not.

It’s not a bad idea to wait for a response from Conde, but it might not be fast enough to help you. In this case, I would say if Echi has concerns about the authenticity of the instrument then so should you. The prudent path would to be to cancel the sale and await more information.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 18 2021 20:39:40
 
RobJe

 

Posts: 730
Joined: Dec. 16 2006
From: UK

RE: Is this an authentic Conde? (in reply to Pontecorvo

quote:

I would really like your opinions about this guitar, and would like to know if there is any sign that this can be not a real Conde


It would be difficult to find an answer.

The tuners are red herrings!

When Faustino Conde died his widow Julia carried on the business. She had already been signing the labels before he died – I have no idea why. As far as I know Julia did not make guitars. Guitars with the Conde name and Gravina address appeared sporadically until the shop closed.

We could speculate. The guitars might have been made by one or more faithful retainers who had worked with Faustino. She might have employed someone else to make them; she might have got a factory to make them; she might have asked lots of luthiers to make a few each for her. If the guitars were made by a a lot of different people, were some better than others? Does anyone know really know what was going on?

Rob
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 18 2021 21:37:06
 
Pontecorvo

 

Posts: 30
Joined: Jul. 18 2021
 

RE: Is this an authentic Conde? (in reply to RobJe

I am chatting with Maria Conde on instagram as we speak.
Information will follow.p ;)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 18 2021 21:55:48
 
JasonM

Posts: 1848
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Is this an authentic Conde? (in reply to Pontecorvo

quote:

I am chatting with Maria Conde on instagram as we speak.
Information will follow.p ;)


Hey! that’s my woman you are talking to

Anyway, back in the early 2000’s in remember seeing lots of Gravinas on eBay and in certain shops, where the sellers were always advertising PdL played a Gravina negra. But everyone knew that Felipe V were the Conde’s to be had, not Gravina
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 18 2021 22:05:21
 
Pontecorvo

 

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Joined: Jul. 18 2021
 

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 18 2021 22:53:37
 
Pontecorvo

 

Posts: 30
Joined: Jul. 18 2021
 

RE: Is this an authentic Conde? (in reply to Pontecorvo

Okay, I just had a chat conversation with Maria Conde.
She also talked with her father about this, so it was quiet a long talk, but nice.

Of course there is always the fact that a lot has happened within the Conde family history, but what can we believe?
Maybe they are a little negative about some things concerning each other, maybe they only want to sell us their currently made new instruments, maybe they are 100% fair about everything?
I don’t know…

Anyway, this is what she tells me about this guitar:

- The guitar is definitely a Conde. Well… made under the Conde name. But ‘factory’ made.

- Made in the shop that was owned by the widow of Faustino. She used lower quality woods etc.
No professional quality compared to materials being used today (Maria describes this shop as a factory, instruments being made there were not fully handcrafted).

- Tuners are the original ones that came on the guitar when it left that shop, but it is ‘low’ quality material.

- The rosette is not from any traditional Conde model or from ‘their’ workshop.

——————-


Well, I think that my main question has been answered; it’s a Conde.
It also has the original tuners.
That’s what I wanted to know.

But… they’re not really positive about this guitar (this period in their history) for sure.

Does that mean that this guitar is bad?
There are a lot of people who payed much money for a guitar from this area, and I’m sure for many of them it is their pride and joy.

I don’t know if I will buy it, let me sleep on it.
Maybe I do, maybe I’ll pass.

It’s a bug’s life.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 18 2021 22:54:56
 
ernandez R

Posts: 573
Joined: Mar. 25 2019
From: Alaska USA

RE: Is this an authentic Conde? (in reply to Pontecorvo

I've found this discussion informative as I have zero experience with these guitars.

Two things though:
-an honest honorable dealer will have a generous return policy
-one shouldn't buy or pay for a guitar without first playing it unless... see above.

HR

_____________________________

I prefer my flamenco guitar spicy,
doesn't have to be fast,
should have some meat on the bones,
can be raw or well done,
as long as it doesn't sound like it's turning green on an elevator floor.

www.instagram.com/threeriversguitars
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 18 2021 23:35:20
 
Pontecorvo

 

Posts: 30
Joined: Jul. 18 2021
 

RE: Is this an authentic Conde? (in reply to Echi

Same seller. Same year and rosette as ‘mine’. Only a Blanca.

https://www.la-guitarra-flamenca.com/shop/Cejillas-Capos/Flamenco-Gitarren-c54171090/Legendär-Flamenco-Gitarre-Hermanos-Conde-Media-Luna-Jahr-2002-p350289696

Link doesn’t work quiet right, maybe because the guitar is sold.
But you can still find the guitar in the flamenco guitar menu.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 18 2021 23:38:15
 
Pontecorvo

 

Posts: 30
Joined: Jul. 18 2021
 

RE: Is this an authentic Conde? (in reply to ernandez R

1. There is a return policy on the guitar, you only pay the shipping yourself.
That’s the case with most shops

2. In my life I bought a lot of guitars without playing or hearing it.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 18 2021 23:43:37
 
RobF

Posts: 1318
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: Is this an authentic Conde? (in reply to Pontecorvo

quote:

Same seller. Same year and rosette as ‘mine’. Only a Blanca.

Same stupid tuners, too.

As far as the Negra goes - apart from the heel and center strip of the back not aligning, the finish spray not catching all of the soundhole edges, the soundhole not being perfectly centered in the rosette, and the CHEAP-ASS tuners, it looks like a nice guitar.

If you don’t mind eating the shipping costs and are happy with the discounted price, then it might be worth a try. If the price aligns with the Blanca’s and has a 20% discount on top of that, then they’re asking for less than a third of what they’re asking for a new one, so that has to be taken into account. If it sounds good and plays good, then the rest is no big deal. You could always upgrade the tuners later, as Echi suggested, but if they function well enough, why bother?

It was very nice of the Conde family to talk to you about it on a Sunday evening. From what I’ve experienced in the past with the father and Philipe Jr. it doesn’t surprise me that much, they’re pretty decent people.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 19 2021 0:07:36
 
Piwin

Posts: 3451
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: Is this an authentic Conde? (in reply to Pontecorvo

quote:

Link doesn’t work quiet right, maybe because the guitar is sold.


I'm not a computer guy so I don't know why exactly this happens, but it has something to do with the diacritics. In this case, it's the "ä" in "Legendär". Spell it "Legendaer" instead and the link seems to work.

https://www.la-guitarra-flamenca.com/shop/Cejillas-Capos/Flamenco-Gitarren-c54171090/Legendaer-Flamenco-Gitarre-Hermanos-Conde-Media-Luna-Jahr-2002-p350289696

If you leave the diacritics in, the link will still work if you ctrl C + ctrl V it, but it won't work as a clickable link. See how on yours the green clickable part stops right at the "ä".

_____________________________

"Anything you do can be fixed. What you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page. What you cannot fix is that pristine, unsullied whiteness of a screen or a page with nothing on it—because there’s nothing there to fix."
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 19 2021 0:11:37
 
Pontecorvo

 

Posts: 30
Joined: Jul. 18 2021
 

RE: Is this an authentic Conde? (in reply to RobF

quote:

ORIGINAL: RobF

quote:

Same seller. Same year and rosette as ‘mine’. Only a Blanca.

Same stupid tuners, too.

As far as the Negra goes - apart from the heel and center strip of the back not aligning, the finish spray not catching all of the soundhole edges, the soundhole not being perfectly centered in the rosette, and the CHEAP-ASS tuners, it looks like a nice guitar.

If you don’t mind eating the shipping costs and are happy with the discounted price, then it might be worth a try. If the price aligns with the Blanca’s and has a 20% discount on top of that, then they’re asking for less than a third of what they’re asking for a new one, so that has to be taken into account. If it sounds good and plays good, then the rest is no big deal. You could always upgrade the tuners later, as Echi suggested, but if they function well enough, why bother?

It was very nice of the Conde family to talk to you about it on a Sunday evening. From what I’ve experienced in the past with the father and Philipe Jr. it doesn’t surprise me that much, they’re pretty decent people.


Well, I remember Felipe Conde himself once wrote me in an email that his guitars are never 100% perfect, only because they’re totally handmade.

I mean; if I want a perfectly centered rosette then I’ll buy a factory made Alhambra.

The price of this guitar is indeed about the same as the Blanca in the link, + 20% off.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 19 2021 0:43:04
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