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Posts: 3496
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
RE: Is this an authentic Conde? (in reply to estebanana)
quote:
Well I don’t know about you guys, but I’m using my Fred Flintstone signature model computer. It stores data on thin pieces of slate and I have to manually feed them into a big slit on the front.
The way to tell if it's an authentic Flintstone computer is if it prints in cuneiform. If it doesn't print in cuneiform it's probably a cheap Chinese knockoff.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
RE: Is this an authentic Conde? (in reply to BarkellWH)
quote:
he way to tell if it's an authentic Flintstone computer is if it prints in cuneiform. If it doesn't print in cuneiform it's probably a cheap Chinese knockoff.
Bill
Well this thread began as a sh¥t show of limp buyers fright boredom, but it’s gotten a whole lot better.
He also gave me a 1920s Hamilton pocket watch with a gold case and chain, which I wore with a three-piece suit in the 1960s and 70s when such were fashionable.
The thing about a classic three-piece suit is it is never unfashionable. It may not be "fashionable" at any given period, such as today, but it always connotes a certain elegance regardless of the era in which it is worn. As I mentioned in my post above, I occasionally wear a three-piece suit today, with my father's (and his father's) Omega pocket watch and fob in the vest, and have received comments from people who have said they wish they could pull off such a sartorial stance. Of course, one has to take into account today's level of dress, where it is not unusual to see someone wearing a suit or blazer with a tee-shirt.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
RE: Is this an authentic Conde? (in reply to BarkellWH)
quote:
Well I don’t know about you guys, but I’m using my Fred Flintstone signature model computer. It stores data on thin pieces of slate and I have to manually feed them into a big slit on the front.
quote:
The way to tell if it's an authentic Flintstone computer is if it prints in cuneiform. If it doesn't print in cuneiform it's probably a cheap Chinese knockoff.
If we’re talking about the Bedrock Special FF2500BC that I sent Stephen for Christmas last year....it’s a freaking toaster oven, not a bloody computer! You’re supposed to feed BREAD into the big slit in the front and the toast flies out the bottom.
Bananadude, just how many pieces of slate have you crammed into the thing? You do realize you might have voided the 3 month, limited money back, warranty?
Posts: 3496
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
RE: Is this an authentic Conde? (in reply to estebanana)
quote:
Richard Jerngan: Watches make great souvenirs, don't they?
Well-made watches and clocks are things of beauty. The mechanical clock is one of Western Civilization's greatest gifts to the world. The Chinese had water clocks that were powered by the flow or drip of water, but they clogged up quickly and were virtually useless. It was the mechanical clock, invented in the West, that made it possible to divide the 24-hour day precisely and enhanced man's activities from agriculture to early industrialization and a hundred other endeavors.
When Western mechanical clocks were introduced to the Chinese, the emperors considered them fascinating "toys" and they were kept within the court. They were not dispersed among the population, and they were not used in any utilitarian way as they were in the West. That, in part, explains how the West pulled ahead of the rest of the world beginning in the late 15th century.
By the way, a very interesting book about the solution to the problem of longitude is Dava Sobel's book about the quest in the 18th century to solve the problem, and the discovery and development of the marine chronometer by John Harrison. The book is entitled "Longitude." It is a fascinating story, and Harrison's invention, the marine chronometer that won the prize, is today housed in the Royal Observatory at Greenwich. I had the good fortune to visit the Royal Observatory many years ago on a visit to London, and it was a thrill to see the original marine chronometer that made measurement of longitude possible.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
Posts: 15707
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Is this an authentic Conde? (in reply to RobF)
quote:
Maybe instead of spending the time on a pictorial or listing hints, let’s just look at the tuners on the OP’s guitar. I would say that in quality they probably sit somewhere between that of the Gotoh 35G620s and the 35G3600s. That points to the 35G1800 series. I would prefer the 35G1800s to them, except they don’t look very Spanish aesthetically speaking, although that’s what I think was put on Paco’s guitar. They are serviceable tuners, but not great. There can be slop in the gearing and also problems with how well the buttons seat in the shafts. I still have a few sets of the 1800s left that I will find use for, but I probably won’t buy any more.
Looking at the OP’s first photo of the tuners you can see the plates are covered with a cheap baubly overly shiny gold coloured metallic plating. The plates themselves are stamped and the edges haven’t been cleaned up. The screws are not counter-sunk and sit on top of the plates. The tabs that hold the tuner shafts are bent metal which is then pushed through the plates, which are likely of base metal and not brass. Base metal degrades, and when it does those tabs will let go. Looking at the side picture, which I had yet to see before declaring the tuners as being cheap, one can see the design on the plates has either been stamped into them, although if they are base metal it is more than likely they are just cast (poured). I’m not a machinist so I shouldn’t stick my neck out too far about processes. Better tuners are engraved, either by machine or hand, and the base material of the plates will at least be of brass (although you won’t necessarily be able to tell that from a picture). A cast base metal plate can often have a “lumpy” or undefined appearance to the “engravings”. The fancy-pants hand engraved Fusteros pictured in that Orfeo article are little works of art, right up there with what can be found on Rodgers machines.
Thanks, that is what I was looking for. I’ll keep an eye out for those details.
RE: Is this an authentic Conde? (in reply to BarkellWH)
The first tuners are Alessi: in this case the plate is not brass: the tuners are hand engraved with the same motif used by Festero for the model used in the guitars of Fleta; buttons are mother of pearl, teflon washers here and there, ball bearings and a special joint gear-barrel to minimise unwanted movements.
Second tuners are Scheller: basically the advantage here is they mount micro ball bearings instead of the teflon washers: this model has been designed with Matthias Dammann. Buttons here are black horn.
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RE: Is this an authentic Conde? (in reply to BarkellWH)
These are entry level Alessi instead: You pay them as a premium Gotoh or Perona here in Europe: plate is plain, buttons are ebony and no special barrel/gear.
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Posts: 3486
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
RE: Is this an authentic Conde? (in reply to Echi)
I've bought jewelry for women more than once, but only one time for a guitar, when Abel Garcia told me using Brazilian rosewood for a classical was like putting jewelry on it.
A few months ago I called the dealer I bought the Romanillos from 21 years ago and asked him how much he thought I should insure it for now. The answer shocked me. I guess I'd better start saving up for some fancier tuners.
But I kind of like the look of the Landstorfers Romanillos put on it.
Posts: 3486
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
RE: Is this an authentic Conde? (in reply to BarkellWH)
quote:
ORIGINAL: BarkellWH
By the way, a very interesting book about the solution to the problem of longitude is Dava Sobel's book about the quest in the 18th century to solve the problem, and the discovery and development of the marine chronometer by John Harrison.
Bill
I join you in recommending "Latitude."
Sobel is also the author of another very interesting book, "Galileo's Daughter."
His daughter was a cloistered nun, with whom Galileo corresponded regularly. Galileo's letters to his daughter have not survived. Sobel speculates that upon the daughter's death the convent may have destroyed them, for fear of being accused of harboring heresy.
The daughter's replies have survived. Sobel analyzes them, trying to ascertain what Galileo may have had to say in his letters.
RE: Is this an authentic Conde? (in reply to BarkellWH)
If i may,I would like to post pictures of my two Condes' tuners. the first from my 1983 media luna and the 2nd from my 2000 Conde Hermanos Felipe V . Any comments helping to educate me regarding their pedigree and worthwhile attributes would be most welcome.
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RE: Is this an authentic Conde? (in reply to BarkellWH)
The first set looks like Fusteros, but you better have Rob F bless them with a paper of authenticity. The second set looks like Gotoh, the ones I call the Aztec gold treasure style. I like the second set, but it’s already known I have no taste or sophistication and am a proletariat anti jewelry zealot.
RE: Is this an authentic Conde? (in reply to Jonnycake)
quote:
Any comments helping to educate me regarding their pedigree and worthwhile attributes would be most welcome.
The first are low-grade Fusteros that were seen on a number of the Condes from that era. My old Conde Blanca also has them, and apparently Echi’s did, as well. The set on the newer guitar from the Felipe V shop sure look like Gotoh to me.
Here’s a link to the current Gotoh series. The ones on your guitar appear to be from an earlier variant (matte plates and blued gears). I don’t know enough about the history the Gotoh product line to comment further.
This is really conflicting me. I am beginning to wonder if the Felipe V shop was using Gotoh tuners at some point, as well as the Fusteros. My 2001 Felipe V A26, that I briefly owned, definitely had the high end Fusteros. Now here are all these guitars popping up with these Gotohs on them.
So now I don’t know what to think...maybe when Paco had Gotohs put on his, people jumped on the bandwagon and swapped over to the Gotohs? I really don’t know. One way to tell if they are original to your guitar would be to remove one and see if there are any plugged screw holes underneath that would have matched the holes for Fusteros.
Keep the Lannies on your Romanillos, for gods sake something he put on must be sacrosanct.
I gave Galileo’s Daughter to my buddy and sometime mentor lute maker in San Francisco as a gift for some help he gave me when I was starting out in guitar making.
Melvyn Bragg the octogenarian BBC presenter has a podcast called In Our Time ( I guess it’s a radio show) and I listen frequently. Six weeks ago he had an hour program on how latitude and longitude were established. Longitude took up 55 minutes of the show. He featured guests who explained the life and work of the watchmaker who made the marine chronometers that made sea voyages possible.
And although I agree with Bill that China was backwards land bound country under emperor rule, the Ancient Micronesians were quite clever long distance sailors who did it without time pieces. The Chinese are now trying to make up for it and are building their navy up twice as fast as the US ( US still could crush Shanghai via the sea in 28 hours and they couldn’t stop it) - it’s a time in history you’d think that China would take stock and recognize that imperialism ultimately leads to the fall of empire, but what the hell, if we’re going to kill the planet may as well go out on top.
RE: Is this an authentic Conde? (in reply to estebanana)
quote:
Keep the Lannies on your Romanillos, for gods sake something he out in must be sacrosanct.
100% agree.
quote:
The first set looks like Fusteros, but you better have Rob F bless them with a paper of authenticity.
What? Is there only a limited subset of members here who are allowed to know anything?? I’ll say it again, I am not a tuner expert...I’m sorry I got involved...
Geez...only another fellow Canadian named Rob could better express how I feel right now...I’m just so sorry...
...at least I don’t go around telling everyone that my toaster oven is a stone-age computer....
RE: Is this an authentic Conde? (in reply to RobF)
quote:
quote:
Keep the Lannies on your Romanillos, for gods sake something he out in must be sacrosanct.
100% agree.
Well of course you agree because you and I both recognize that even putting $2000 Graf tuners would render his guitar a worthless hulk bereft of the tuners the master builder intended.
RE: Is this an authentic Conde? (in reply to estebanana)
quote:
Well of course you agree because you and I both recognize that even putting $2000 Graf tuners would render his guitar a worthless hulk bereft of the tuners the master builder intended.
Yes, that, and my whole stance throughout this thread has been to promote the preservation of originality, whenever possible.
RE: Is this an authentic Conde? (in reply to BarkellWH)
"The first are low-grade Fusteros that were seen on a number of the Condes from that era. My Conde Blanca also has them, and apparently Echi’s did, as well. The set on the newer guitar from the Felipe V shop sure look like Gotoh to me."
Very interesting regarding the comments involving tuner weight/ tonal characteristics. I find the Felipe V to be heavier and possessing a very sharp almost metallic sound which I put down to its relatively short playing time and ' grand piano' approach to construction if I can describe it that way.
My '83 however seems perfectly balanced,lighter and as mentioned has a beautiful well rounded voice that I feel only comes with time and much playing.( According to my teacher,this guitar accompanied some of Spain's great singers)
I can't see the Felipe V having swapped tuners as the previous owner kind of stuffed it away under a bed for many years and I doubt would have done any alterations like that in any case.
Curious to hear what it would sound like with lighter tuners, as perhaps that might soften in a good way its already prodigious sound, a sound I sometimes have a hard time with when compared to that older '83.
RE: Is this an authentic Conde? (in reply to Jonnycake)
quote:
I can't see the Felipe V having swapped tuners as the previous owner kind of stuffed it away under a bed for many years and I doubt would have done any alterations like that in any case.
Popping off the tuners from one side and looking for extra screw holes would be the way to investigate this. It’s highly unlikely the holes for Fusteros and Gotohs would line up.
RE: Is this an authentic Conde? (in reply to Jonnycake)
quote:
Curious to hear what it would sound like with lighter tuners, as perhaps that might soften in a good way its already prodigious sound, a sound I sometimes have a hard time with when compared to that older '83.
Tuners don’t really change the sound, least not in a way you could hear it unless you had dog level hearing for high partials. The balance issue refers to the guitar being headstock heavy 50 grams is a lot of weight and if you can cut 160 grams down to 110 grams it can make a difference in how the instrument balances on your leg.
RE: Is this an authentic Conde? (in reply to BarkellWH)
I agree with the assessment: cheap Fusteros and Gotoh high grade. Both should do their job properly so I see no reason to replace them even though the Fustero are really cheap quality and used to be sold for the equivalent of 30 euro at the time. Paco himself had Johannes of Mundo Flamenco replacing his Fuatero tuners with a set of Gotoh as those you have in the Conde Felipe V. If they were good for the Conde of Paco are good also for yours. Again, my take is that those Gotoh are perfectly coherent even though probably not original “at the time”. Nowadays Felipe Conde uses Gotoh, Alessi and Fustero. Regarding the Lansorfer-Reischl in use on the a Romanillos, (I still have a set of them somewhere), they are a piece of history but I wouldn’t use them in a Spanish guitar: my set is quite heavy and stiff and you have to modify your headstock to use them as they have some brass things underneath the plate. They are quality stuff and used to be the German handmade equivalent of Fustero for 80 years, but nowadays even Gotoh work smoothly. Currently Rubner and Scheller are the best alternative for a Reischl - Lansdorrer. Romanillos used them because they were the favourite tuners of Bream, who was a fan of Hauser.
RE: Is this an authentic Conde? (in reply to BarkellWH)
Fascinating stuff..I always learn a lot when I venture on to this forum,including how to spell a name properly!
And so the repository of Conde mythology grows..
I will of course keep both guitars in their original shape as I find that patina on those cheap Fusteros only contributes to the charm of this '83 and why mess with whatever Conde deems appropriate for the newer models?
I do wonder if replacing the frets might be something to look at should I end up keeping the '83.They have seen a lot of use over the years and maybe would make a nice guitar feel even better in my hands.
The Felipe V should stay as it is as only a lot more playing time on it is needed imo.
RE: Is this an authentic Conde? (in reply to Jonnycake)
quote:
...and why mess with whatever Conde deems appropriate for the newer models?
Jonnycakes, you are contributing to the mythology if you decide to imply the tuners on your Felipe V are original without at least doing the necessary due diligence by checking underneath.
The entire gist of this discussion has been an attempt to bring some measure of clarity to the matter, not to contribute to mythology or further obscure.
RE: Is this an authentic Conde? (in reply to BarkellWH)
Myths have short life in the time of capillary informations and this is something good. Beside myths, good guitars keep being good and bad guitars, bad. Btw, does it really matter what specific tuners used to be used in the shop Felipe V? Or in recent Ramirez, Contreras or whatever?
RE: Is this an authentic Conde? (in reply to Echi)
quote:
Btw, does it really matter what specific tuners used to be used in the shop Felipe V? Or in recent Ramirez, Contreras or whatever?
Of course it matters. You seem to be stuck on this point that it doesn’t, but of course it does.
Be it good Gotoh tuners on one guitar or the cheapest of them on others, if this is an example of the quality control practiced by the Conde firms in the first decade of this century, then no wonder their reputation took the giant dump that it did. It appears to be well earned.
Same with originality. It matters. Just not to you.
I’m willing to take it on the chin in the service of clarity and accurate information. If I say something that is subsequently proven wrong then I’ll realign based on the new information. If, after everything that has been said and done in a discussion like this, people just retreat into their respective corners and obstinately hold to their original positions, we’re wasting our time. Maybe the non-makers on here can indulge themselves in a pile of fanboy claptrap and innuendo, but the makers should hold themselves to higher standards. At least, that’s my opinion, man. Otherwise, what’s the point?
I guess this thread will continue to upset me more than it should. In truth, I don’t give a flying f**k about the OP’s or Jonnycake’s guitars, or about glowing descriptions that mean absolutely nothing, or about the crap that the Conde family has brought down upon themselves. I do care about accuracy, but fighting for it on here is just not worth the aggravation, it seems.
RE: Is this an authentic Conde? (in reply to BarkellWH)
Well Rob, as I told you here above, I respect your opinion, but I just don’t agree with your point. I consider myself quite fussy actually, but I have a wider view on this.
RE: Is this an authentic Conde? (in reply to Echi)
Well, I don’t know how feeling originality or quality has no bearing on value constitutes a wider view, but I also recognize there is nothing to be gained by continuing the discussion. I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree.
RE: Is this an authentic Conde? (in reply to BarkellWH)
quote:
I don’t know how feeling originality or quality has no bearing on value constitutes a wider view
Originality is not necessarily a synonym of quality. Everything has to be taken with a grain of salt. The cheap Fustero of this 3D are original but they are not quality tuners. Let me make a distinction: 1. some Madrid makers made a point in using top of the range tuners, and namely handgraved Fustero in all their guitars. Some makers (Fleta or Arcangel) even used a specific model of Fustero tuners. Arcangel was even famous to have inspired a certain Fustero design, with mother of Pearl buttons and silver plate with waves engraving. Fustero is a Spanish brand and made a very reasonable price to the local makers (100 to 150 actual euro). Well, in the cases above I see an evident value in keeping the original tuners. The more valuable the guitar, the more important is the originality. Even in this case, if the original tuners have to be replaced (as tuners mainly have to be effectively functional) I see no problems in replacing with Fustero or even with tuners of a superior category like Rodgers, Alessi and Scheller. 2. In the case of the 80 Condes, they just happened to use crappy tuners for their 1st class cypress models, basically for mere commercial reasons. Faustino for many years used much better Fustero on his top model and crappy Fustero just for the Pozuelo line. These tuners instead are industrially made in Valencia, printed from a metal sheet, with plastic buttons and often with backlash problems: the fact they are made by Fustero is just a coincidence. In this specific case I have no regrets in upgrading them with high grade Fustero without fear to infringe the integrity of the maker’s design because the latter is clearly driven by mere economical profit purposes. The choice of better Fustero is coherent with the brand and better tuners offer better functionality. If then I would decide to replace the crappy Fustero with hand made sterling silver Alessi under handgraved Fustero design, it’s because in my reckoning the value added by the improvement is far superior to the value of preserving the integrity. Market definitely follows the same principle when it comes to consider instruments like those we are speaking about. If we were speaking of Hauser or valuable historical guitars it would be a different matter.
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