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Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3193
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Cultural appropriation (in reply to RobJe

quote:

ORIGINAL: RobJe

Ida y Vuelta

Milonga … Guajiras … Colombianas . Vidalita … Rumba

Clearly imperialist cultural appropriation … or perhaps look more closely?

Rob


...and the earliest and most widely spread of the pre-flamenco forms, fandangos, imported either from Africa or the Americas by the early 16th century.

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 21 2020 0:29:46
 
RobF

Posts: 1169
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: Cultural appropriation (in reply to Paul Magnussen

I have a story to relate that falls within the boundaries of this topic as I’ve recently been involved in some discussions regarding appropriation with a Gitano player in Granada for whom I’m building a guitar. Due to some aspects of the build, we’ve had to give the issue some thought. The story is a little long though, so apologies in advance.

When we first started discussing the guitar at the conceptual stage he had a number of ideas for personalization, all which related to his heritage. Because of this, the concept of cultural appropriation came forward, I think I was the one who brought it up, and we discussed the implications. We ultimately agreed that any gypsy symbolism I might incorporate into the guitar could be considered acceptable because he was Gitano and the items were placed there at his request. We also agreed that I held the final say on the aesthetics of one of my instruments, and that I had the prerogative to over-ride or alter any request as I felt fit.

One of his requests was to write a phrase in Romani on the label. I wasn’t against the idea, but after I showed him a sample of my handwriting we agreed it might be better if I discretely wrote it on the inside of the top, a hidden message, so to speak. This was done, although one would need a mirror to see it.

Next he wanted the star and moon of Camarón inlayed into the headstock. I said no, in part because I didn’t want to be accused of copying from one of Andy’s recent builds. I said I’d consider inlaying it on the heel cap, but wasn’t sure. We finally agreed to discard the idea, as he could tell I didn’t really want to do it.

Then he hoped I could somehow inlay the Bandera de los Gitanos somewhere on the guitar. I liked that idea quite a bit and could visualize a couple of ways to do it. First, I had really liked the way John Ray had done the border for the rosette of a flamenco guitar he recently built and posted here on the Foro, so I thought I’d try my hand at using his technique in the border of the rosette for this guitar. I spent quite a few days working on it and finally had a purfling strip containing multiple miniature flags alternating with black squares bordered in white, all side grain, basically done in the style of John’s border. It was a great learning experience but, problem was, when I inlayed it into a mock-up rosette it reminded me too much of a string of flags not unlike what can be seen dangling from the bleachers in stadiums during games of fútbol. So, we had a conference call and I explained it was a no go, but I had an idea for the rosette that abstracted the flag throughout its design that I wanted to try.

So, now that the flag was going to be abstracted into the rosette, I thought that it might look nice if a truer representation was inlayed into the bone of the bridge tie block. I can still picture this in my mind, and it still looks great inside there, lol, but in practice after making a mock-up, I thought it was a little too blatant. So...another conference call, where I explained I would still include the Bandera in the tie block, but it would also be an abstraction.

Here’s the result. The bridge might look a little rough as it’s in the grain fill phase of French Polishing. I haven’t started polishing the guitar yet. When I showed this to the recipient he was happy, he saw what I was getting at right away, said it was “Muy Gitano”, and the matter was closed. The story continues after the picture intermission...



Now, this is where it gets interesting, at least to me.

A lot of this guitar borrows heavily from a 1934 Santos. The head design is one of my own, however, and the original intent and drawings I did for this particular head incorporated a ribbon hole, as seen on many old flamenco guitars, where a ribbon could be threaded through the hole so the guitar could be hung on the wall when not in use.

The abstracted rueda in the tie block is made of red jasper, which has a bunch of symbolism that the owner and I discussed. I thought inlaying a jasper dot where I was originally going to drill the ribbon hole could be a cool idea, and would balance with the wheel on the bridge. The thing was, on the day I attached the back to the guitar we had a little ceremony via video call where I placed my phone inside the guitar so he could say a few words to welcome his new instrument into the world. I noticed that during the blessing, he was holding a Hindu icon in one of his hands.

So, after mulling this over, another call, this time to discuss my concern that the inlayed red jasper dot in the head could also be interpreted to represent a Bindi, and was he comfortable with that? He has voyaged to India a number of times in the past, in part due the ancestral connection he feels exists between India and gitanos. We had a fairly involved discussion about this and still haven’t settled the matter. My original conception was more a nod to the history of the flamenco guitar rather than to any connection with India, so in many ways I think it’s a non-issue. His idea was to compromise by putting it on the back of the headstock, but I’m not sure I like the aesthetics of that. I’ll probably do a mock-up with it on the front and run it by him again before making any final decision. If we can’t come to something we both feel comfortable with, I just won’t do it, it’s kind of non-standard anyways.

I don’t really have much of an opinion concerning all this, beyond that my intent is to always try do the right thing, and even if I don’t always hit the mark dead on, at least try to follow my heart which, as we all know, is pure, and thus provides me with the strength of ten (I wish). The rosette and tie block are so abstracted that I don’t think it would occur to anyone, save possibly another gitano, that they represent gypsy iconography. Because of the abstraction, I don’t think it’s out of the question to use it on a guitar not intended for a gitano, but I’m still not sure I’d do so. One thing is certain, the decision wouldn’t be motivated by money, I simply don’t work that way. Probably, I’ll just end up doing what feels right to me. I’m kind of proud of the rosette and tie block, so I wouldn’t mind using the concept again. He has no problem with me doing that either, in fact, he suggested it.

What I’ve found interesting about this whole exercise is being able to have had sincere and involved discussions about appropriation with a member of a group that is often considered to be the victim of it, in particular the part of having to consider that the implication of representing a bindi on the guitar suggested the issue wasn’t necessarily a one way street.

The project is ongoing and I can hardly wait until this crisis is over so I can return. We’re planning to have a huge fiesta, lots of good food and cold cerveza, and for certain some great music, too. Some of the dancers in their social circle are originally from Mexico, so maybe we can convince them to contribute some recipes from there, too, as part of the feast. Cheers!

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 21 2020 3:38:46
 
estebanana

Posts: 8324
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Cultural appropriation (in reply to Richard Jernigan

Wow



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Attachment (1)

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 21 2020 9:30:34
 
Deniz

Posts: 91
Joined: Feb. 16 2020
 

RE: Cultural appropriation (in reply to Richard Jernigan

quote:

...and the earliest and most widely spread of the pre-flamenco forms, fandangos, imported either from Africa or the Americas by the early 16th century.


Isn't Flamenco said to have evolved from many cultural influences anyways?
I've read it came from the mix of Spanish, Indian, Arabian and even Jewish people in Andalucia!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 21 2020 10:13:42
 
RobF

Posts: 1169
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: Cultural appropriation (in reply to Paul Magnussen

At any rate, the point of my post about the guitar was to try to show that awareness of the issue exists across cultural boundaries, and people are sensitive to the implications. People don’t like being typecast, regardless of their background, and the effects of members of one culture cherry-picking certain aspects of another culture and turning them into what amounts to be fashion statements does do real harm. It serves to dilute and is also insulting. And it isn’t just a colonial concept, IMO, things can go both ways.

I don’t know a huge amount of Gitano flamenco people, but the one’s I do know are modern Europeans who understand their culture and know their sh*t. If one of them wants to have discussions about appropriation with me, I tend to pay attention and try to learn. I don’t sit there classifying and defining the origins of flamenco to them as they already know that stuff, there’s plenty of people in their own ranks examining the roots of flamenco academically, and if it comes up in conversation I tend to listen and appreciate the opportunity being afforded me to understand how something can be seen from a perspective other than my own. But, I also express my thoughts, otherwise there’s not a lot of point to it. I’m not a complete effing idiot, so I’m also bringing something to the table, and that does tend to be recognized.

I think I’ll remove my post and maybe move it to the Lutherie section. Maybe it was too personal to be put here. I don’t want to be attacked for something I do with sincerity and love.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 21 2020 13:30:41
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 3289
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Cultural appropriation (in reply to RobF

Rob, great story. Will you return to Granada with the guitar in hand to personally deliver it to your Gitano friend or do you plan to ship it to him?

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 21 2020 13:42:00
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 3289
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Cultural appropriation (in reply to RobF

quote:

I think I’ll remove my post and maybe move it to the Lutherie section. Maybe it was too personal to be posted here. I don’t want to be attacked for something I do with sincerity and love.


Rob, please leave your post in this "Cultural Appropriation" thread as is. As I mentioned in my post above, I think it is great. Only a knave or a fool would attack it for any reason. (Not that there aren't knaves and fools lurking among the membership, but to hell with them.)

Cheers,

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 21 2020 13:46:31
 
RobF

Posts: 1169
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: Cultural appropriation (in reply to BarkellWH

quote:

Will you return to Granada with the guitar in hand...?

I’d like to do it that way, in part because things like the Fiesta we have planned are great places to meet more players and it’s easier to do that if they associate my face with guitar making. And the more I get to talk shop with the players there, the better, as what I learn tends to make it back into what I build.

COVID has really thrown a wrench in the works, however, this guitar is one of two that I’m completing for players there, so it might end up being necessary to ship it. It will partially depend on how impatient people get. I’d rather deliver it in person, but I can’t see that happening until next year.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 21 2020 14:50:40
 
chester

Posts: 841
Joined: Oct. 29 2010
 

RE: Cultural appropriation (in reply to BarkellWH

quote:

ORIGINAL: BarkellWH

quote:

I think I’ll remove my post and maybe move it to the Lutherie section. Maybe it was too personal to be posted here. I don’t want to be attacked for something I do with sincerity and love.


Rob, please leave your post in this "Cultural Appropriation" thread as is. As I mentioned in my post above, I think it is great. Only a knave or a fool would attack it for any reason. (Not that there aren't knaves and fools lurking among the membership, but to hell with them.)

Cheers,

Bill


Funny Bill, since RobF's post disproved your point about "cultural appropriation originating in college campuses".

As a knave AND a fool I say -- get back to ironing your mustache.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 21 2020 16:53:16
 
JasonM

Posts: 1770
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Cultural appropriation (in reply to RobF

Rob, it’s pretty awesome that you know Gitanos, who want you to build their guitars, and come to party in Spain. Sounds like you’ve got the mind of a real artist - and the rosette looks beautiful. I really like the ‘purpling’ and the hint of aqua blue lines in there.


Didnt we hit a lot of these cultural appropriation arguments in the Rosalia thread if I remember right.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 21 2020 17:24:40
 
RobF

Posts: 1169
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: Cultural appropriation (in reply to JasonM

quote:

Didnt we hit a lot of these cultural appropriation arguments in the Rosalia thread if I remember right.

Man, I wish I never would have started that thread, lol.

When the thread was in its active state I messaged a friend of mine who plays guitar with a number of cantaoras of her generation who have a lot of stylistic similarities in how they dress, etc.. I asked him what they thought of her, he replied he wasn’t a fan, she wasn’t flamenco. I said yeah, but what do the singers think? Next time I went there it was apparent to me she had become almost a taboo topic. Any mention of her and people would look uncomfortable and skirt the subject, so I didn’t pursue it.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 21 2020 17:38:40
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 3289
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Cultural appropriation (in reply to chester

quote:

Funny Bill, since RobF's post disproved your point about "cultural appropriation originating in college campuses".

As a knave AND a fool I say -- get back to ironing your mustache.


Three points, Chester.

Rob's post describes how he and his Gitano friend worked together to determine how best to incorporate certain Gitano symbols, as well as whether or not the bindi found among Hindu women qualifies, into the design of the guitar, with an appreciation for Gitano culture. It is a contemporary work in progress. The phenomenon of "cultural appropriation" that gets some elements of US society wrapped around the axle has been around for several years, and, like "trigger-warnings," "safe spaces," and "micro-agressions," originated on college campuses and continues to flourish in academia, although its appeal appears to have widened beyond academia.

You may consider yourself a knave and a fool, although I have never considered you such. I have always appreciated your thoughts and ideas on flamenco and other topics. My reference to "knaves and fools" was in response to what I perceived Rob anticipated when he wrote: "I think I’ll remove my post and maybe move it to the Lutherie section. Maybe it was too personal to be put here. I don’t want to be attacked for something I do with sincerity and love." Yes, I think only a knave and a fool would attack Rob for expressing his genuine attempt to work with his Gitano friend to create something valuable, and from which each received satisfaction. And I think we have seen a few (very few, thankfully) Foro members mount ad hominem attacks and misrepresentations against those with whom they disagree.

Finally, I have both a mustache and a goatee, but as far as I am aware, only Agatha Christie's Hercule Poirot irons his mustache.

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 21 2020 18:54:17
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3193
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Cultural appropriation (in reply to RobF

RobF--

Thanks for a wonderful account of thoughtful artistic collaboration. I think, leave it here. It speaks eloquently to the topic of the thread.

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 21 2020 19:01:04
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13229
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Cultural appropriation (in reply to Richard Jernigan

quote:

ORIGINAL: Richard Jernigan

quote:

ORIGINAL: RobJe

Ida y Vuelta

Milonga … Guajiras … Colombianas . Vidalita … Rumba

Clearly imperialist cultural appropriation … or perhaps look more closely?

Rob


...and the earliest and most widely spread of the pre-flamenco forms, fandangos, imported either from Africa or the Americas by the early 16th century.

RNJ


So we read about. In this case the “dance” called fandango, whatever in the heck that could be. However, I have yet to see evidence in any form of what we know is “fandango” today, meaning the rigid harmonic structure and phrasing, existing before the first recordings of Malagueñas and such on the first wax cylinders. The baroque music that claims to be related, even by name, is not related at all by any important musical specific. The Scarlatti fandango has a bit of a solea falseta in it.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 21 2020 19:51:21
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 1096
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: Cultural appropriation (in reply to Deniz

quote:

I've read it came from the mix of Spanish, Indian, Arabian and even Jewish people in Andalucia!

Indian is a wrong choice of word. Gypsy is the correct word. Don't forget Moors.

_____________________________

Say No to Fuera de Compás!!!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 21 2020 20:18:22
 
Piwin

Posts: 3339
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: Cultural appropriation (in reply to RobF

quote:

my concern that the inlayed red jasper dot in the head could also be interpreted to represent a Bindi


The first thing it made me think of is the "eye" of a Cylon centurion. Then again, I'm a nerd.

Nice guitar BTW!

_____________________________

"Anything you do can be fixed. What you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page. What you cannot fix is that pristine, unsullied whiteness of a screen or a page with nothing on it—because there’s nothing there to fix."
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 21 2020 22:20:13
 
tf10music

 

Posts: 104
Joined: Jan. 3 2017
 

RE: Cultural appropriation (in reply to JasonM

quote:

Didnt we hit a lot of these cultural appropriation arguments in the Rosalia thread if I remember right.

Yes we did, and we ended up at exactly the same impasse (some people believed that power disparities mattered when it came to exchanges of cultural materials, and others didn't). Probably not worth rehashing the whole thing.

One person's straw man is another person's truth, and vice versa.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 21 2020 23:06:23
 
tf10music

 

Posts: 104
Joined: Jan. 3 2017
 

RE: Cultural appropriation (in reply to devilhand

quote:

Gypsy is the correct word.


Uh...no, it's not. Not in English, anyway -- it's considered offensive by a lot of people. Roma/Romani is the accepted terminology. But in Spanish it's different, because the Gitanos of Andalucía have a different history than Romani communities elsewhere (due to centuries of forced sedentarization), and so "Gitano" is fine and even preferred. There are scholars who study 'gitanidad' in Andalucía, etc. The issue is that "Gitano" translates directly to "Gypsy," which is considered a slur in English. I usually just say "Gitano" when I'm referring to the Roma of Andalucía, because the Spanish term is permissible in both languages and it seems like it's more accurate than any of the others.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 21 2020 23:13:44
 
Mark2

Posts: 1688
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: Cultural appropriation (in reply to chester

I'm not sure I agree. Jesse Cook doesn't generally play flamenco so how could he be appropriating it's culture? Or is anyone with a flamenco guitar ripping off flamencos? I personally have zero issue with people like him. Plenty of people prefer that music to flamenco. But as a person who has spent a lot of time listening to flamenco, I know what I prefer. That doesn't make me a cop.


quote:

ORIGINAL: chester




Come on Bill, surely you can see this isn't a black and white issue.

There is a version of this "cultural appropriation police" right here on the foro.
Just post a Jesse Cook video, or mention a harmonica, and see who rears their head and starts lecturing about "authenticity".
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 22 2020 0:13:37
 
Mark2

Posts: 1688
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: Cultural appropriation (in reply to tf10music

I know plenty of American gypsies and they call themselves gypsies. The word is not offensive to them.


quote:

ORIGINAL: tf10music

quote:

Gypsy is the correct word.


Uh...no, it's not. Not in English, anyway -- it's considered offensive by a lot of people. Roma/Romani is the accepted terminology. But in Spanish it's different, because the Gitanos of Andalucía have a different history than Romani communities elsewhere (due to centuries of forced sedentarization), and so "Gitano" is fine and even preferred. There are scholars who study 'gitanidad' in Andalucía, etc. The issue is that "Gitano" translates directly to "Gypsy," which is considered a slur in English. I usually just say "Gitano" when I'm referring to the Roma of Andalucía, because the Spanish term is permissible in both languages and it seems like it's more accurate than any of the others.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 22 2020 0:16:25
 
tf10music

 

Posts: 104
Joined: Jan. 3 2017
 

RE: Cultural appropriation (in reply to Mark2

quote:

I know plenty of American gypsies and they call themselves gypsies. The word is not offensive to them.


Yeah, I've had the same experience, but enough Roma find it offensive that it's been classed as a pejorative in many dictionaries. In situations like that, I find that it's better to simply use language that won't make my interlocutor feel unnecessarily uncomfortable, since it doesn't cost me anything to simply use the other available words and I don't know if the person I'm talking to will be sensitive about my word choice or not.

Also, it's worth considering that when a person uses a given term to refer to their own ethnicity, it is coded differently than when someone from a different group uses that same term. This is, of course, a pretty uncontroversial idea -- there are quite a few famous examples in North American cultural discourse alone.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 22 2020 2:10:35
 
Andy Culpepper

Posts: 2955
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: Cultural appropriation (in reply to RobF

Rob, that guitar looks really gorgeous. I love the fine detail.
When I made my most recent flamenca with the star and crescent sound port, I also thought about the fact that it might come off as a minor cultural appropriation. That’s why I’m careful to describe it with the term “inspired by” the story of the Roma migration from India, through the Middle East into Europe, rather than “telling” the story of that, because I don't feel that it's my story to tell. That said, I’ve been in love with flamenco and Gitano culture for half my life now, and I hope that guitar is seen as a sincere love letter to flamenco and Gitanos, because that’s what it is to me. It’s my “fan art” if you will.

_____________________________

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http://www.andyculpepper.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 22 2020 2:47:25
 
chester

Posts: 841
Joined: Oct. 29 2010
 

RE: Cultural appropriation (in reply to Mark2

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark2

I'm not sure I agree. Jesse Cook doesn't generally play flamenco so how could he be appropriating it's culture? Or is anyone with a flamenco guitar ripping off flamencos? I personally have zero issue with people like him. Plenty of people prefer that music to flamenco. But as a person who has spent a lot of time listening to flamenco, I know what I prefer. That doesn't make me a cop.

I wasn't saying Jesse Cook is "culturally appropriating" flamenco.
I made a parallel to the "gatekeeping" bill was referring to when he said:
quote:


ORIGINAL: BarkellWH

Those who level the charge of "cultural appropriation" mean that you have no business playing music, dancing, or engaging in other activity originating with a particular ethnic group or nationality if you are not a member of said ethnic group or nationality.

I've seen plenty of posts here over the years mocking a musician for not having perfect compas even though they put "flamenco" in the video title, or decrying well-known flamenco artists for being too polished and not what "my idea of flamenco is", or that some "maestro" of another would be rolling in their grave if they knew where flamenco has been going these days.

So this
quote:

ORIGINAL: BarkellWH

culture of "grievance" and "victimization" that seems to be gripping many who have nothing better to do.

is not a new phenomenon and even some of us who are *not* in a "college campus" might also be guilty of getting offended in the name of authenticity.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark2
I know plenty of American gypsies and they call themselves gypsies. The word is not offensive to them.

Would these be flamenco gypsies? Where being a gypsy gives you more credibility? Or are we talking about a CPA who goes by "The Gypsy Accountant"?

Personally I don't put too much thought into "cultural appropriation" since many things that some cultures hold sacred were actually forced upon them by a more powerful conquering culture (cough cough religion), but I'd like to posit a question to the readers here -- how do you feel about american white-boys who assume a spanish-y moniker and play "foreign sounding" music (to various degrees of authenticity)?

Is Esteban culturally appropriating?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 22 2020 4:05:53
 
Piwin

Posts: 3339
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: Cultural appropriation (in reply to tf10music

In French it's pretty hazy. Sometimes "Roma" is used as an umbrella term encompassing groups like Sinti and Calo. Sometimes it refers specifically to the Roma in Eastern Europe. In everyday usage, I know from experience that some Sinti take exception to being called Roma. If memory serves, part of the dislike is the association with certain Eastern European groups (really just an expression of the common xenophobia towards Eastern Europeans in Western Europe), and another is a rejection of certain political projects. After all, when you group them all under "Roma", you're never far from calling them "one nation without a country" or something like that. And you give them a flag, and symbols that not all of them recognize and some of them in fact hate.

Since Robf was talking about Granada, I know (or rather, I knew) a few places there where Roma (Eastern European) live. They're a good ways off from any of the Gitano neighborhoods. Based on what I've heard Gitanos say about them, I don't get the sense that they have any feeling of mutual belonging or shared "fate" with the Roma. Really, they just reinforced impression that Roma, as in Eastern European Roma, is the absolute lowest rung in the social ladder in Western Europe. You can get in trouble for being racist towards any other group. All bets are off when it comes to the Roma. For Gitanos, I think the whole story of migrating from India matters as "mythology", but there's no (or very little) sense of real kinship with other groups related to that mythology, other than in some vague imaginary sense. Perhaps not dissimilar to the role Africa plays for some African-Americans, or really the role of any "country of origin" for any group in the US other than First Peoples.

_____________________________

"Anything you do can be fixed. What you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page. What you cannot fix is that pristine, unsullied whiteness of a screen or a page with nothing on it—because there’s nothing there to fix."
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 22 2020 6:26:50
 
orsonw

Posts: 1497
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: Cultural appropriation (in reply to RobF

Hi RobF
Your guitar looks beautiful. Hope you post more pictures when it's finished.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 22 2020 9:10:57
 
Deniz

Posts: 91
Joined: Feb. 16 2020
 

RE: Cultural appropriation (in reply to Richard Jernigan

As a person of both german and turkish kin I was always torn regarding this question..

.. my german heritage doesn't hold any music culture.. we have "Schlager" and "Volksmusik".. nothing that even remotly caught my interest. Most people are completly americanized regarding their music taste (and with many also regarding the rest of their lifestyle). Being born and raised in Cologne I could become a Carnival-musician..hooray..which is basically Schlager.

..my turkish heritage has some interesting traditional turkish music.. but these days kids love the "Turkish Pop" and - just as anywhere in the world - are mostly into the US and UK Pop, Rock and Hip Hop/Rap.

I dabbled and still am dabbling with the idea of "staying authentic" .. but what would be appropriate and authentic for me to do?

Become a Schlager """"musician"""" ?
Or a classical composer like Bach and Beethoven?

Make turkish music - albeit I don't even speak turkish nor know anything about that music?

Neither would be any authentic, because I don't have any connection to this music, besides it being the music of "my" culture(s).

Follow the flock and start a band to play the recently fashionable form of rock music? (I guess it's Metal these days, which I absolutely do not like)
Or become a fancy-face-tattooed Rapper, sipping purple cough-syrup, babbling about "money and hoes"?

I do f.e. love the psychedelic and progressive music of the 60s and 70s.. should I make a band like that.. raggling in nostalgia? Would I be any authentic playing the music of my fathers generation - which my father didn't even listen to?

So.. what's "my" musical culture/background?

Furthermore.. I don't really feel particularly kin to the german nor the turkish culture. I experienced not being accepted by the turkish for not speaking the language (I heard "you're not a turkish" more than once in my life from turkish people) and neither being part of german culture.

Nope.. first of all I'm neither german nor turkish, I'm human (or so they say ). The world is my home and the music played around the world is played by "my people". And I mean it as I say it.. I feel kin to all people that are open-hearted and trying to be good people. I feel kin to any music that strikes my heart.

Right now I'm trying to learn something from my Andalucian brothers, who play wonderful music! Before I was soaking up the classical-influenced music of UK Progressive Rock. And before that I had a period where I fell in love with some of the US's Country music. And before that it was Folk music from around the world...and before that I was into UK Indie bands.. and before that..and before that..

Reminds me of Paco de Lucia quoting some composer whose name I can't remember right now, but it goes something like:
"All musician influence one another.. and we 'geniuses'.. we simply steal" and Paco goes on saying "and that's what you have to to.. listen to everything and make it yours!"

..and hopefully you will come up with music that spawns from your heart directly. What could be more authenthic than that?
I don't see it that much as "stealing" or "appropriating", but moreso as being open-minded and open-eared, trying to learn any new (musical-)language I can, so the (music of the) world will become my home one day.

I could never come up with the same kind of toque an andalucian born would - how could I ever?! But I'll come up with a toque that's influenced by my life and my personal musical influenced I gathered and hopefully one day I can see myself as a "good musician" - regardless of any genre!

..but what do I know, after all I'm just young and naive I suppose
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 22 2020 9:57:00
 
El Burdo

 

Posts: 598
Joined: Sep. 8 2011
 

RE: Cultural appropriation (in reply to BarkellWH

Hello 'Bill'. This is my defence, then I'm gone.

You're just piqued because you don't like what I say. I believe in cultural rights and I suspect you believe in the right to bear arms. You don't like what I say. Ditto. In the British satirical magazine Private Eye they have a ludicrous character called Sir Bufton Tufton who is there to to describe pompous and reactionary attitudes such as those expressed in your posts. I don't know who would be appropriate in US culture. You seem to be well read and with experience but that won't hide what you think, which on social matters I find generally tiresome and repellent.

You say I mount ad hominem attacks? I think apart from calling another person out for making what I saw as dangerous remarks I have only ever reacted to you by making what I always hope are humorous and mocking parodies of what you say. Hence, 'Great Whites of America', my observation of your 'fulminating' and you being a 'curmugeonly conservative'. My reference to ironing your moustache is of the same cloth, though I did toy with 'uniform' and 'cummerbund', both items that I was so sure you would find defamatory, I went for something more humourous.

You on the other hand, don't call me a 'fool' as that would be ad hominem. So, you imply it in combination with what I say. IOW, you are underhand and duplicitous. Is that ad hominem? I'd say it was evidence based. You connect me to an imagined slight to someone you 'perceive' as possibly anticipating something you have no knowledge of happening by repeating terms you use to attack me. I liked Rob's post and it raised issues in a way I would not attack, despite what you might imply.

Your calm and analytical surgery on other author's comments displays intolerance and unconscious prejudice like a waft of decay from old clothes. You refer regularly to 'ignorami who complain about cultural appropriation', ignorant snowflakes, ludicrous examples of the shallow, solipsistic, self-absorbed attitude found among the ignorami' blah blah, mocking "trigger warnings" and "safe spaces." What a charmer.

'Not that there aren't knaves and fools lurking among the membership, but to hell with them.' To hell with them? Well, it's not ad hominem but it's everything else aggressive and underhand.

'And I think we have seen a few (very few, thankfully) Foro members mount ad hominem attacks and misrepresentations against those with whom they disagree.' Me again, old chap?

You have a bee in your bonnet, and therefore ignore my assertion that Cultural Appropriation is real where it involves exploitation choosing instead to mock the idea. You associate me as likely to accuse someone of CA. You wish me to hell.

I don't need to insult you or make personal attacks. As far as I am concerned you're doing a better job yourself, than I could or would want to.

You come across as a resentful and didactic old curmudgeon who is no longer the mover and shaker he presumably once was. I don't deny you your right to your outdated beliefs but as far as I am concerned, they stink.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 22 2020 10:11:36
 
Piwin

 

Posts: 3339
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

[Deleted] 

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Jul. 22 2020 12:50:24
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 22 2020 10:25:39
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 3289
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Cultural appropriation (in reply to El Burdo

El Burdo, don't flatter yourself by thinking you were the sole example I was thinking of when commenting in this thread. Over the years, up to the present time, there have been three or four examples. As I wrote, there have been few (very few, thankfully) such members on the Foro. And your ad hominem attacks not only have been against me. Take a look at some of your posts where you personally attacked others with whom you disagreed.

Your post above has so many errors and misrepresentations of my positions on various issues that they are too numerous to name here. Just two examples will suffice, as they exemplify much of your post. One, I, too, believe in "cultural rights," which is a very different thing than mounting a charge of "cultural appropriation": and I have never owned a gun in my life. Two, I did not have you in mind at all in responding to Rob's post about working with his Gitano friend on the guitar. I suggested that anyone mocking Rob for his post was a knave and a fool, but that you think I was referring to you demonstrates something in your own psyche.

Again, You would do well by challenging opinions and ideas with your own opinions and ideas instead of mounting personal attacks against those with whom you disagree.

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 22 2020 14:10:09
 
Mark2

Posts: 1688
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: Cultural appropriation (in reply to tf10music

I don't think that is the case IME. These guys often refer to themselves as gypsies when they call me " Hey it's Johnny, one of the gypsy boys. Can you give me that installer who does the gypsy work's number?" I'm familiar with black folks who refer to their friends as "my Nword". This is not that.




quote:

ORIGINAL: tf10music

quote:

I know plenty of American gypsies and they call themselves gypsies. The word is not offensive to them.


Yeah, I've had the same experience, but enough Roma find it offensive that it's been classed as a pejorative in many dictionaries. In situations like that, I find that it's better to simply use language that won't make my interlocutor feel unnecessarily uncomfortable, since it doesn't cost me anything to simply use the other available words and I don't know if the person I'm talking to will be sensitive about my word choice or not.

Also, it's worth considering that when a person uses a given term to refer to their own ethnicity, it is coded differently than when someone from a different group uses that same term. This is, of course, a pretty uncontroversial idea -- there are quite a few famous examples in North American cultural discourse alone.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 22 2020 16:53:39
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