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devilhand

 

Posts: 845
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

Neck dive on flamenco guitars 

I wonder if neck dive on flamenco guitars can be problematic for guitarists. I think flamenco guitars are heavy on the headstock and light on the body. Can a luthier do something against it?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 13 2020 13:06:51
 
RobF

Posts: 947
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: Neck dive on flamenco guitars (in reply to devilhand

quote:

I think flamenco guitars are heavy on the headstock and light on the body.


I think the premise is incorrect. Perhaps the size of the data-set should be increased before drawing such a sweeping conclusion?

But, if you have a guitar with this problem, one solution could be to replace the tuning machines with a lighter set. Alternatively, a 5 lb. weight can be attached to the tail end with duck tape. Either solution will do the trick.

But seriously, not all flamenco guitars are neck heavy. If a guitar is way out of balance there might not be much can be done beyond seeking out a new guitar that has a lighter neck.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 13 2020 14:37:43
 
Escribano

Posts: 6142
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Neck dive on flamenco guitars (in reply to devilhand

My Bernal and my old Anders do not suffer from this problem so not all flamenco guitars are as you describe. Maybe you have some heavy duty tuners? Which guitar is it?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 13 2020 18:19:36
 
kitarist

Posts: 1177
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: Neck dive on flamenco guitars (in reply to devilhand

Just nail the strap in a new place on the guitar and keep going until you find a balanced position.

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Konstantin
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 13 2020 19:08:01
 
ernandez R

Posts: 351
Joined: Mar. 25 2019
From: Alaska USA

RE: Neck dive on flamenco guitars (in reply to kitarist

Nails are so... 17th century, all the cool kids have been using a battery drill and sheet rock screws for years, tru hipsters Suguru, and the proles duct tape.


HR - slowly and painfully weening himself of the pain pills

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I prefer my flamenco guitar spicy,
doesn't have to be fast,
should have some meat on the bones,
can be raw or well done,
as long as it doesn't sound like it's turning green on an elevator floor.

www.instagram.com/threeriversguitars
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 13 2020 19:23:40
 
ernandez R

Posts: 351
Joined: Mar. 25 2019
From: Alaska USA

RE: Neck dive on flamenco guitars (in reply to devilhand

So many variables with guitar mass.
Guessing as you become more familiar you will pick a more balance instrument next time
If you want a lighter neck then it’s pegs.

HR
quote:

ORIGINAL: devilhand

I wonder if neck dive on flamenco guitars can be problematic for guitarists. I think flamenco guitars are heavy on the headstock and light on the body. Can a luthier do something against it?


_____________________________

I prefer my flamenco guitar spicy,
doesn't have to be fast,
should have some meat on the bones,
can be raw or well done,
as long as it doesn't sound like it's turning green on an elevator floor.

www.instagram.com/threeriversguitars
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 13 2020 19:26:10
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 845
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: Neck dive on flamenco guitars (in reply to Escribano

quote:

ORIGINAL: Escribano

My Bernal and my old Anders do not suffer from this problem so not all flamenco guitars are as you describe. Maybe you have some heavy duty tuners? Which guitar is it?

Fortunately, I'm not affected by a neck dive flamenco guitar because I still have to get my first flamenco guitar. My current guitar is a classical one. Feels like it's a balanced instrument. The question in my first post is more future oriented. What to look at when I get a flamenco guitar. Also I wanted to know what both players and luthiers have to say about it. After reading a few posts my conclusion is neck dive is not a problem for a flamenco guitar. But the tuning machines and pegs may cause a problem.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 13 2020 20:20:46
 
Stu

Posts: 1843
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England

RE: Neck dive on flamenco guitars (in reply to devilhand

quote:

I think flamenco guitars are heavy on the headstock and light on the body.


If you've yet to own a flamenco guitar how can you have such thoughts!?
I've played guitar for a decent while and never even heard of neck dive let alone have an opinion on it

is it a big issue for classical players?

quote:

Just nail the strap in a new place on the guitar and keep going until you find a balanced position.

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 13 2020 21:25:10
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 845
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: Neck dive on flamenco guitars (in reply to Stu

quote:

is it a big issue for classical players?

Neck dive can be a problem for e-guitar and bass guitar players. Not a big issue for classical players. As you know they hold their guitar at a 45 degree angle.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 13 2020 22:33:19
 
Stu

Posts: 1843
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England

RE: Neck dive on flamenco guitars (in reply to devilhand

Ok. So what is neck dive??
A neck/head stock that's too heavy and means you're fighting against the weight of it whilst playing?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 14 2020 0:24:51
 
yourwhathurts69

 

Posts: 96
Joined: Sep. 16 2009
 

RE: Neck dive on flamenco guitars (in reply to devilhand

Try changing your fulcrum.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 14 2020 6:16:56
 
kitarist

Posts: 1177
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: Neck dive on flamenco guitars (in reply to Stu

quote:

Ok. So what is neck dive??


Example:



Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (1)

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Konstantin
Foro cante accompaniment practice tracks (zip file)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 14 2020 6:56:09
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 845
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: Neck dive on flamenco guitars (in reply to Stu

quote:

So what is neck dive??


At 0:00-0:50 Neck dive in standing position
At 0:50-1:00 Neck dive in sitting position



or



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 14 2020 11:21:17
 
gerundino63

Posts: 1569
Joined: Jul. 11 2003
From: The Netherlands

RE: Neck dive on flamenco guitars (in reply to devilhand

Flamenco guitarist sit down while playing.

Adapt your sitting position, use arm or legg support, or a cloth on your legg, a foot stool......but adapting a guitar for this.......

If you have a problem, make sure, really sure, it is not yourself that makes the problem. Than look another time very careful. Wait for a day. Look again another time very careful.
And if you have done this, than maybe, maybe, see if you have to adapt anything or anyone else.

You may, if you want, use this tip anytime you like.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 14 2020 11:48:01
 
Escribano

Posts: 6142
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Neck dive on flamenco guitars (in reply to devilhand

That's not a real Tele and mine didn't "dive". Neither does my Westone bass.

Most often, quality electric guitars have dense wooden bodies, heavier than the neck e.g. mahogany, like my Les Paul.

And, as Peter points out, you sit with a flamenco guitar, supporting it with your knee. Not free floating on a strap.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 14 2020 13:42:33
 
Stu

Posts: 1843
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England

RE: Neck dive on flamenco guitars (in reply to gerundino63

quote:

You may, if you want, use this tip anytime you like.

this is great!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 14 2020 15:35:28
 
JasonM

Posts: 1565
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Neck dive on flamenco guitars (in reply to Stu

I had a set of tuners made from solid Iridium with enriched Uranium rollers that glowed in the dark. Looked cool but neck dive was a problem. I gave them away to some kid
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 14 2020 17:05:22
 
kitarist

Posts: 1177
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: Neck dive on flamenco guitars (in reply to gerundino63

quote:

but adapting a guitar for this.......


..and people thought I was kidding with my 'nail the strap to a new place' advice

Also make sure there are no giant magnets to your left beneath the tuners.

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Konstantin
Foro cante accompaniment practice tracks (zip file)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 14 2020 18:18:33
 
flyeogh

Posts: 729
Joined: Oct. 13 2004
 

RE: Neck dive on flamenco guitars (in reply to kitarist

quote:

..and people thought I was kidding with my 'nail the strap to a new place' advice


helium balloons possibly?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 14 2020 20:43:36
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 845
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: Neck dive on flamenco guitars (in reply to devilhand

Could any luthier here tell me how flamenco guitar weight is distributed? For example how much does the body weigh? The neck and headstock without tuning machines? The fretboard?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 14 2020 21:09:29
 
Echi

 

Posts: 826
Joined: Jan. 11 2013
 

RE: Neck dive on flamenco guitars (in reply to devilhand

It’s usually lighter than a modern classic guitar but the same weight of an old Torres or Santos guitar.
A cypress guitar (blanca) is usually within the 1000 -1400 grams range while a negra is more or less the same weight of a classical.
I used to have a very good Sanchis Carpio weighting 1700 grams.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 15 2020 8:15:46
 
Stu

Posts: 1843
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England

RE: Neck dive on flamenco guitars (in reply to JasonM

quote:

I had a set of tuners made from solid Iridium with enriched Uranium rollers that glowed in the dark. Looked cool but neck dive was a problem. I gave them away to some kid


Hahaha. I missed this before.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 15 2020 9:19:24
 
RobF

Posts: 947
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: Neck dive on flamenco guitars (in reply to gerundino63

quote:

Flamenco guitarist sit down while playing.

Notice how Mr. Wooten still employs a strap, even while playing when sitting. Perhaps this video can be used as a starting point to suggest locations to nail the strap. On second thought, hammering nails does seem rather brutish, drywall screws really are far more refined. The beauty of drywall screws is they can be reused to fill the holes left behind as the strap is moved around the guitar while looking for the perfect balance point. Hat tips to HR and Konstantin.




quote:

Could any luthier here tell me how flamenco guitar weight is distributed? For example how much does the body weigh? The neck and headstock without tuning machines? The fretboard?

In regards to the request for the component weights of a guitar, all guitars are slightly different. If using a strap doesn’t appeal, may I suggest selecting a guitar with a sound port. The port can be used as an entry point for a nice silk necktie (Paisley never goes out of style) with the sound hole being the exit point. The tie can then be worn around the neck, as usual. The benefit is it will hold the guitar in a comfortable playing position REGARDLESS of whether one is sitting or standing. The other advantage is the player puts forward a snappy and natty appearance to the audience. Visual impressions count, if you wanna be a pro. Let us never forget this.

P.S. I am still conflicted on the optimal knot to use for the necktie; Full Windsor, Half Windsor, Four-in -Hand, Pratt...the possibilities seem endless. Perhaps this should be left to each individual’s discretion.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 15 2020 14:40:10
 
Escribano

Posts: 6142
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Neck dive on flamenco guitars (in reply to devilhand

From all the replies here, this seems to be a total non-issue. You haven't got a flamenco guitar anyway, so really what is the point of this question?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 15 2020 15:47:15
 
RobF

Posts: 947
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: Neck dive on flamenco guitars (in reply to devilhand

Just so as not to be too flippant about identifying the component weights of a guitar, it’s not so easy to answer this when the Spanish method of building is used. This is because so many components are shaped while attached to the other components. It’s not like the North American/Northern European method of building the body and neck separately, and then attaching the neck with a joint like a dovetail or whatever. So, braces are shaped after being attached to the top and back; once this is done there isn’t much point in weighing the completed element, the builder tends to work with stiffness and/or tones during the shaping process. The body is boxed with the neck attached, prior to carving the neck. The fingerboard is attached to the guitar prior to tapering and fretting. And so on, the whole thing comes together as a unit, not an amalgam of separate elements.

There really isn’t any practical way to answer your question.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 15 2020 17:17:43
 
Ricardo

Posts: 12668
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Neck dive on flamenco guitars (in reply to devilhand

quote:

I'm not affected by a neck dive flamenco guitar because I still have to get my first flamenco guitar.


This explains SOOOO much.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 15 2020 17:59:22
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 3144
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Neck dive on flamenco guitars (in reply to RobF

quote:

If using a strap doesn’t appeal, may I suggest selecting a guitar with a sound port. The port can be used as an entry point for a nice silk necktie (Paisley never goes out of style) with the sound hole being the exit point. The tie can then be worn around the neck, as usual. The benefit is it will hold the guitar in a comfortable playing position REGARDLESS of whether one is sitting or standing. The other advantage is the player puts forward a snappy and natty appearance to the audience. Visual impressions count, if you wanna be a pro. Let us never forget this.

P.S. I am still conflicted on the optimal knot to use for the necktie; Full Windsor, Half Windsor, Four-in -Hand, Pratt...the possibilities seem endless. Perhaps this should be left to each individual’s discretion.


A capital idea, Rob. While paisley never goes out of style, as one who considers himself a classic conservative, might I suggest a regimental rep tie? In the original British regimental rep tie, the stripes were angled from left to right, or from “heart to sword,” as the young subalterns said in a nod to their fighting roots. Brooks Brothers created the American version, with the stripes angled from right to left, no doubt to maintain sartorial distance from our former colonizers. Either one would do for playing guitar while sitting or standing.

Bill

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And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 15 2020 18:23:40
 
Piwin

Posts: 3162
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: Neck dive on flamenco guitars (in reply to devilhand

quote:

At 0:50-1:00 Neck dive in sitting position


I mean yeah, if you take both arms off, your guitar is going to fall, whether you're sitting cross-legged or traditional. That's normal. The solution is: don't take both arms off

The guitar is held in place by your leg, chest, and right arm. If for some reason your right arm is completely clear of the guitar, then you probably make up for that by letting the neck rest in the curve between your left hand thumb and index. That could potentially happen with certain ways of playing picado when you get to the bass strings, but that's it. I don't really play electric, but I'd imagine this neck dive business is an issue just because the standard position is different (because the instrument is so thin?), and so they don't rest their right arm on top of the guitar to keep it in place? Dunno. But yeah, I honestly don't think this is anything to worry about.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 15 2020 19:09:49
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 845
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: Neck dive on flamenco guitars (in reply to Escribano

quote:

so really what is the point of this question?

I'm asking this out of curiosity. Have you asked yourself how many people live where you live now? How many men and women and the age structure? I like flamenco. So I want to know more about the instrument. Nothing to do with neck dive anymore because it's not an issue as the posts in this thread suggest.

@RobF
I like your detailed answer.

quote:

The solution is: don't take both arms off

That is THE solution.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 15 2020 21:54:59
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3012
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Neck dive on flamenco guitars (in reply to BarkellWH

quote:

ORIGINAL: BarkellWH

A capital idea, Rob. While paisley never goes out of style, as one who considers himself a classic conservative, might I suggest a regimental rep tie? In the original British regimental rep tie, the stripes were angled from left to right, or from “heart to sword,” as the young subalterns said in a nod to their fighting roots. Brooks Brothers created the American version, with the stripes angled from right to left, no doubt to maintain sartorial distance from our former colonizers. Either one would do for playing guitar while sitting or standing.

Bill


Since very few people in the USA have any idea which British school or regiment a pattern might belong to, or which way the stripes ought to slant, it's perfectly safe to wear striped ties here.

For fifteen years I had a fair amount of business in England. A company I worked for had contracts with the UK government, and I consulted for them after I went out on my own.

My briefing for people I took with me for the first time included, "Don't wear a striped tie. Some of the most popular patterns in the USA belong to British schools or regiments. You would risk giving offense."

Here's a Royal Army Ordnance Corps tie available from Amazon--one you would likely have run into on the contracts I worked in England.

https://tinyurl.com/yc4qqh74

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 15 2020 23:58:49
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