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Felipe Coelho on picado   You are logged in as Guest
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Piwin

Posts: 3350
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

Felipe Coelho on picado 



Personally that's not exactly the kind of picado sound I'm going for, but the basic tips seem good and there are quite a few interesting ideas in there to possibly explore.

Any thoughts on what he does at 4:30? I always practiced staccato, placing the other finger directly on the string, but he suggests to prep the finger but leave it above the string.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 1 2020 14:01:48
 
Stu

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From: London (the South of it), England

RE: Felipe Coelho on picado (in reply to Piwin

Thanks for posting.

at 4:30 he doesn't seem to be talking about playing staccato therefore he's just prepping his fingers above the string no?

But yeah for that flamenco staccato picado then that's right isn't it. Play finger one, finger two moves onto the string. muting and prepared for its own note.

Btw I'm not sure if this is relevant...but he's not a flamenco player is he?
I'm not saying he has no place to offer us any picado advice. Just that maybe don't think you're doing it wrong cos he says do it a certain way..

Ps I haven't watched the whole video
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 1 2020 14:59:01
 
JasonM

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From: Baltimore

RE: Felipe Coelho on picado (in reply to Piwin

At 4:30, I agree with Stu. He’s obviously not planting and thus muting, but just moving the next finger out In the air , which is kind of misleading because it’s not really efficient if you don’t plant. And it sounds like he’s playing staccato moving forward.

Yeah,He lacks a bit of flamenco punch in his picado , like it’s a tad light or something. He’s better than me though that’s for sure.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 1 2020 16:26:58
 
kitarist

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RE: Felipe Coelho on picado (in reply to Piwin

quote:

Any thoughts on what he does at 4:30? I always practiced staccato, placing the other finger directly on the string, but he suggests to prep the finger but leave it above the string.


Yeah it is confusing of him to leave out any mention of the staccato practice which is very well known in classical (i.e. non-flamenco) context as well.

I don't know how he meant it, but I wouldn't take this as alternative to staccato slow practice.

I saw this a couple of days ago and I think the usefulness would be the focus on simultaneity of the active and prep movements.

Let's say the prep movement ends on the string (so staccato practice). I'd take his point as emphasizing that the next finger lands on the string (finishing its prep) at the very same moment the active finger lands on the string "above" (finishing its rest stroke).

As for the walking analogy, it might work intuitively better as a running analogy as moving the leg back while running feels more active than with walking.

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Konstantin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 1 2020 18:56:42
 
Ricardo

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From: Washington DC

RE: Felipe Coelho on picado (in reply to Piwin

The secrets of How to play fast and sloppy 101
Or, do as I say, not as I do?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 1 2020 20:49:47
 
Piwin

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RE: Felipe Coelho on picado (in reply to Stu

@Stu
quote:

but he's not a flamenco player is he?


I don't know. I hadn't heard of him before this video showed up in my recommendations. Just looking at his channel it seems to be a rather eclectic mix. He has some flamenco compositions played on 7-string, and those compositions suggest that he has more than just a passing acquaintance with the genre.

quote:

therefore he's just prepping his fingers above the string no?


Exactly. I had just never heard of doing that as an exercise, so I was just wondering whether there were any benefits to doing that compared to staccato.

@JasonM
quote:

He lacks a bit of flamenco punch in his picado

My impression as well. Just not the sound I'm going for.

@kitarist Would you see any point though in letting the prep finger "hover" instead of doing staccato for that exercise of focusing on simultaneity of movements?

@ Ricardo

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 2 2020 12:31:24
 
kitarist

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RE: Felipe Coelho on picado (in reply to Piwin

quote:

@kitarist Would you see any point though in letting the prep finger "hover" instead of doing staccato for that exercise of focusing on simultaneity of movements?


I can't quite see the point of it for SLOW practice. At (fast) speeds, this IS what happens - the 'prep' is over the string rather than touching it and we are not playing staccato anymore. But the general practice for that is the staccato slow practice.

I am also not sure about his advice (or rather the way he justifies it) to keep the fingers hovering as close as possible. Just thinking aloud here. I think it is OK in the context of a correction to excessive flailing about, but not sure beyond that - as a forced distance minimization to be practiced slow, for itself. He says physics, something, most efficient that way.

But is 'efficiency' the biggest issue? I think he is talking about being able to go faster rate if smaller movements. But I also care about the sound generation - the finger has to have enough momentum for that sudden release and punchier sound therefore.

So isn't it more important to develop explosive acceleration, basically impulse-like force generation; twitching? And only then work on reducing excessive flailing if present, but without artificially/forcefully limiting finger excursion, i.e. without tripping the natural movement which is the result of a good impulse/twitch? In other words, reduce flailing as a natural consequence of developing a better impulse control for the stroke and reset - i.e. not more than needed force and at exactly the right times.

So what if the fingers as a result reset somewhat farther from the string - (1) maybe they need the little extra head start before touching the string for the explosive punchy stroke at very fast scale speeds, and (2) it may be where they end up naturally as you execute twitching/impulse-forces.

BTW, the required forces are so small when done properly in time and duration, and we have plenty of excess capacity and time for reset when alternating (even more so for the ami picado that he talks a lot about in the video).

I guess I have doubts about the general approach of focusing on certain movement/distances rather than focusing on what is behind it that makes the distances and movement more refined as a consequence.

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Konstantin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 2 2020 18:28:07
 
devilhand

 

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RE: Felipe Coelho on picado (in reply to Piwin

AMI picado. How common is it in flamenco?



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 2 2020 20:37:38
 
Ricardo

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From: Washington DC

RE: Felipe Coelho on picado (in reply to devilhand

quote:

ORIGINAL: devilhand

AMI picado. How common is it in flamenco?




Very rare. As demonstrated it sounds horrible. Paco and Gerardo use a 3 finger PICADO that sounds better, but is tirando, so more like a tremolo with no bass notes. No different than sequential ami arp technique... only you use it for scales.

5:04. It’s quite aggressive, bangs the open B string

Hard finding good angle view. 2:38

1:20, 2:36, 3:14 etc


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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 2 2020 22:41:21
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 3 2020 9:32:38
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13240
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From: Washington DC

RE: Felipe Coelho on picado (in reply to Guest

quote:

or just terrible generally?


Yes this. You are correct in theory it CAN sound good potentially, but have not heard it done yet. It might be the effort involved? I tried it as a cheat for a long time, but abandoned it as all I saw was improvement of basic I and m which in the end was just as fast and sounded better.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 3 2020 17:46:10
 
mark indigo

 

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RE: Felipe Coelho on picado (in reply to Piwin

I haven't watched the whole vid again, but i did watch it a while ago and from what i remember he also tells you to drag fingers across strings when descending, i don't think anyone has mentioned, but that is also a no-no.

I think (from hearsay) that Serranito used ami apoyando picado.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 3 2020 18:22:56
 
Piwin

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RE: Felipe Coelho on picado (in reply to mark indigo

quote:

but that is also a no-no


Not in my book. Depends on the situation but I have no hard rule against it.

For me what he's proposing is interesting, but it has to take into account the articulation of the phrase. I can imagine a situation where his technique works perfectly, but yeah, I'm not sure it would come up all that often. I certainly wouldn't see it as "it's physically more economical to do it this way, therefore I must do it all the time".

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"Anything you do can be fixed. What you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page. What you cannot fix is that pristine, unsullied whiteness of a screen or a page with nothing on it—because there’s nothing there to fix."
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 3 2020 19:01:13
 
mark indigo

 

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RE: Felipe Coelho on picado (in reply to Piwin

quote:

Not in my book.

i understand alternation of i and m as a general principle. The only acceptable exception i am aware of is where there is a slur between the repeated strokes, so eg. i, m, i, pull-off to open string, repeat i on lower string, continue m, i etc. I have never come across a flamenco teaching dragging the way FC does it (with 2 fingers or 3), and have often been encountered the advice to always alternate (with or without the exception already mentioned).

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 3 2020 19:42:36
 
Piwin

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RE: Felipe Coelho on picado (in reply to mark indigo

Yeah I don't know anyone who's dragging quite as much as what Coelho is proposing. I think they avoid teaching dragging because it's much more important to get the strict alternation down first, and dragging techniques can be added later. Personally, I think 99% of it is just like you said: I'll repeat sometimes if there's a slur involved (sometimes also if there's a break). That said, someone like Rafael Cortez drags pretty often, and not only when there are slurs involved.

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"Anything you do can be fixed. What you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page. What you cannot fix is that pristine, unsullied whiteness of a screen or a page with nothing on it—because there’s nothing there to fix."
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 3 2020 20:05:02
 
Ricardo

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From: Washington DC

RE: Felipe Coelho on picado (in reply to mark indigo

quote:

I think (from hearsay) that Serranito used ami apoyando picado.


Correct. Again, it’s not easy to coordinate so most people end up with sloppy tone like here at 3:15 and 4:00



About dragging, it can be a useful coordination however it can NOT be done on ascending lines, so developing strict alternation is essential or you will have a speed discrepancy in one direction vs the other and less uniform tone as well.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 3 2020 23:03:02
 
mt1007

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RE: Felipe Coelho on picado (in reply to Piwin

sorry late to party, i think this cat has one of the best 3 finger picados:

https://www.instagram.com/p/B_sqtx1g8Ks/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

https://www.instagram.com/p/B_vm1KqABHc/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

https://www.instagram.com/karaiguedes/

is there a way to embed instagram vids?

hasta pronto brochachos
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 4 2020 0:14:35
 
chester

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RE: Felipe Coelho on picado (in reply to mt1007

quote:

ORIGINAL: mt1007

sorry late to party, i think this cat has one of the best 3 finger picados:

https://www.instagram.com/p/B_sqtx1g8Ks/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

https://www.instagram.com/p/B_vm1KqABHc/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

https://www.instagram.com/karaiguedes/

is there a way to embed instagram vids?

hasta pronto brochachos


f-ing WOW dude... that's some guitar playing!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 4 2020 4:26:12
 
mt1007

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RE: Felipe Coelho on picado (in reply to Piwin

he is one bad mofo for sure...
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 4 2020 6:06:05
 
rombsix

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From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: Felipe Coelho on picado (in reply to mt1007

quote:

sorry late to party, i think this cat has one of the best 3 finger picados:


Fantastic!

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Ramzi

http://www.youtube.com/rombsix
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 4 2020 17:19:27
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13240
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Felipe Coelho on picado (in reply to mt1007

quote:

ORIGINAL: mt1007

sorry late to party, i think this cat has one of the best 3 finger picados:

https://www.instagram.com/p/B_sqtx1g8Ks/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

https://www.instagram.com/p/B_vm1KqABHc/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

https://www.instagram.com/karaiguedes/

is there a way to embed instagram vids?

hasta pronto brochachos


He has certainly put in the effort. If he filed nails flat it would improve the tone a lot. It’s not quite where I would want it to be if I could do it that fast myself. Meaning I still wouldn’t want to replace my i-m stuff with what he’s doing. But he’s real close to making me jealous 😂

Here I was working on it slow with the correct tone I’m after, but the faster I go the sloppier it gets....this in response to Rafael Cortes PICADO that turned out to be i drag, not a finger...please note that Jesus Del Rosario responded to my video saying it was dangerous to try this and basically don’t do it. Like I said I worked on it for a while and noticed i-m getting better anyway so I gave up.


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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 4 2020 21:01:54
 
tri7/5

 

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Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Jun. 4 2020 21:56:37
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 4 2020 21:56:12
 
tri7/5

 

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Joined: May 5 2012
 

RE: Felipe Coelho on picado (in reply to mt1007

quote:

ORIGINAL: mt1007

sorry late to party, i think this cat has one of the best 3 finger picados:

https://www.instagram.com/p/B_sqtx1g8Ks/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

https://www.instagram.com/p/B_vm1KqABHc/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

https://www.instagram.com/karaiguedes/

is there a way to embed instagram vids?

hasta pronto brochachos


Finally a rival for Willy Nelsons guitar "Trigger" in the age and play wear department.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 4 2020 21:58:28
 
mt1007

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RE: Felipe Coelho on picado (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

quote:

ORIGINAL: mt1007

sorry late to party, i think this cat has one of the best 3 finger picados:

https://www.instagram.com/p/B_sqtx1g8Ks/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

https://www.instagram.com/p/B_vm1KqABHc/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

https://www.instagram.com/karaiguedes/

is there a way to embed instagram vids?

hasta pronto brochachos


He has certainly put in the effort. If he filed nails flat it would improve the tone a lot. It’s not quite where I would want it to be if I could do it that fast myself. Meaning I still wouldn’t want to replace my i-m stuff with what he’s doing. But he’s real close to making me jealous 😂

Here I was working on it slow with the correct tone I’m after, but the faster I go the sloppier it gets....this in response to Rafael Cortes PICADO that turned out to be i drag, not a finger...please note that Jesus Del Rosario responded to my video saying it was dangerous to try this and basically don’t do it. Like I said I worked on it for a while and noticed i-m getting better anyway so I gave up.




Yo man, I'm jealous of his playing hahahaha I've tried the three finger picado myself, the allure of being able to picar fast without much work is seductive. The sound it produces is just not there for me. I'm sticking with the 2 finger picado too.

Jesus has a really nice Cano Roto sounding picado. When I was hanging in Cano Roto, you can hear peeps practicing picado all day. They all strive to have the perfect picado, all of them. Gunslingers man...
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 5 2020 1:27:01
 
mark indigo

 

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RE: Felipe Coelho on picado (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

please note that Jesus Del Rosario responded to my video saying it was dangerous to try this and basically don’t do it.

was he saying it makes other technique get worse? why would that be? i looked at his channel and it has no content... bit strange.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 5 2020 8:19:15
 
Ricardo

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From: Washington DC

RE: Felipe Coelho on picado (in reply to mark indigo

quote:

ORIGINAL: mark indigo

quote:

please note that Jesus Del Rosario responded to my video saying it was dangerous to try this and basically don’t do it.

was he saying it makes other technique get worse? why would that be? i looked at his channel and it has no content... bit strange.


Yes...because we all know it’s a cheat, and when you become reliant on it, well you don’t need to keep working on the basic I-m stuff. I assume he has experimented as well and come to similar conclusions as rest of us... it’s not a good substitute, or rather, not worth all the effort.

I will admit what paco and Gerardo (no longer can do it), were doing was super cool sounding, the tirando version. Forgot also this one:

Many spots starting 3:41 but repeating at 5:35...live versions he would improvise with it on one string. Had I not seen video I always thought that stuff was done apoyando.


As an aside, the other day a student noted when I was doing some fast PICADO on Skype, my thumb was pushing the 6th string clear down to touch the 5th string. I quickly became self conscious wondering if I put too much tension unknowingly on the thumb. Then I saw paco here at 4:25 doing exactly the same thing I was doing.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 5 2020 15:55:31
 
kitarist

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RE: Felipe Coelho on picado (in reply to rombsix

quote:

ORIGINAL: rombsix

quote:

sorry late to party, i think this cat has one of the best 3 finger picados:


Fantastic!


Eh.. an extra finger, and extra string.. too much cheating

OK, seriously, it sounds the best I've heard of ami picados(*). But how does he do when the scale run does not line up nicely at 3-per-string and/or it is not in triplets per pulse?

EDIT: Here' something that may be of interest - I noticed that he does anchoring with the 'a' finger during the run - Once it's played, the 'a' finger stays on the string it just rested on "waiting" for the 'm' and 'i' to finish their strokes and rest on the same string, and only then it's reset. Not much of an 'a' reset too - hardly lifts it, more of a dragging stroke to the next string up (I've only seen descending scales)

I tried that (not with the 'a' drag; just the hold) and it feels initially quite awkward as it interrupts the temporal symmetry in finger 'cycling' through their phases - I want to reset 'a' as soon as 'm' does its stroke.

So it feels awkward and rhythm-interrupting, but I wonder if it is that 'anchoring' and dragging which allows him, for runs that line up nicely as 3-per-string, to achieve that 'flow'. As in just feeling 'a's: A m i A m i A m i

EDIT2: So in terms of learning it, I'd imagine something like this: start with the flamenco descending arpeggio 'a' finger drag - but a bit more slowly than usual, and after each string is sounded with the dragging 'a', insert 'm i' strokes.

(*) Upon closer inspection, I'd say this is actually a dragging picado technique not unlike Rafael Cortes's "m i-i m [i m i m] i-i" except here 'a' holds and drags instead of 'i'. Or is this a distinction without a significant difference with regular picado? I thought it is different, but now doubting myself after I wrote this.

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Konstantin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 5 2020 18:01:59
 
Auda

 

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RE: Felipe Coelho on picado (in reply to kitarist

quote:

But how does he do when the scale run does not line up nicely at 3-per-string


I have yet to understand the need to keep it 3 per when playing ami. Seems to me to be a lot of extra work for the the left hand.

Cheers
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 5 2020 22:13:16
 
Ricardo

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Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Felipe Coelho on picado (in reply to kitarist

quote:

Here' something that may be of interest - I noticed that he does anchoring with the 'a' finger during the run - Once it's played, the 'a' finger stays on the string it just rested on "waiting" for the 'm' and 'i' to finish their strokes and rest on the same string, and only then it's reset. Not much of an 'a' reset too - hardly lifts it, more of a dragging stroke to the next string up (I've only seen descending scales)


Right, more cheating. So he can only do THAT, with 3 note groups on a single string, or only descending. Ascending will be a different feeling. Maybe he’s got that down too, I didn’t notice, but it will be different.

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www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 6 2020 1:53:21
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13240
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Felipe Coelho on picado (in reply to Auda

quote:

ORIGINAL: Auda

quote:

But how does he do when the scale run does not line up nicely at 3-per-string


I have yet to understand the need to keep it 3 per when playing ami. Seems to me to be a lot of extra work for the the left hand.

Cheers


3 note per string, or any repeating note pattern per string, reduces the complexity of the right hand sequence, so it aids in speed. Most of the time you have a hiccup in a fast line, it’s Right where you have a break in the right hand pattern.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 6 2020 1:56:55
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