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RE: new build for 68' Conde style flamenco   You are logged in as Guest
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Ricardo

Posts: 12210
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: new build for 68' Conde style fl... (in reply to Tom Blackshear

quote:

I've noticed that sometimes Paco Lucia would change out his third string with a black string to help blend the treble strings together, perhaps to make things flow more evenly.


Actually he only did that with this guitar, and the exact opposite...he used black or red 1st and 2nd string, and clear one on the third. I suspect he was mixing Savarez with la Bella brand.




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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 6 2020 2:37:37
 
Tom Blackshear

 

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RE: new build for 68' Conde style fl... (in reply to Ricardo

quote:


Actually he only did that with this guitar, and the exact opposite...he used black or red 1st and 2nd string, and clear one on the third. I suspect he was mixing Savarez with la Bella brand.


Thank you for your observation but the point I was trying to make was that Paco was trying to even out what may have been anomalies of uneven sound, by using certain added string brands to fix the problem.

My fine tuning techniques are basically used to try and overcome these problems by using the full string brand, with balancing both treble and bass together.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 7 2020 16:56:03
 
constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1419
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: new build for 68' Conde style fl... (in reply to Tom Blackshear

quote:

Paco was trying to even out what may have been anomalies of uneven sound

Paco said in an interview on video that the difference between a classical guitarist and a flamenco guitarist is that the classical is concerned with the quality of the tone, whereas he was concerned with the rhythm. He said he plays notes "sucio" [dirty], so I doubt that he was doing what you suggested. I think he probably broke individual strings at various times and threw on whatever he had on hand.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 8 2020 4:33:43
 
Ricardo

Posts: 12210
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: new build for 68' Conde style fl... (in reply to Tom Blackshear

quote:

by using the full string brand,


Which brand and set?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 8 2020 15:19:23
 
Ricardo

Posts: 12210
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: new build for 68' Conde style fl... (in reply to constructordeguitarras

quote:

I think he probably broke individual strings at various times and threw on whatever he had on hand.


He said in interview as some point he used Savarez red on the basses and Labella trebles. In the 80s he switched to Luthier. I assume he got a bad G string in the labella set and then got used to the mix. For sure he was doing it deliberately as we see several concerts where he used this combo on that guitar from 1977 or so until it was stolen (1980). When he started using the substitute guitar(s) he was using clear trebles.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 8 2020 15:23:53
 
Tom Blackshear

 

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RE: new build for 68' Conde style fl... (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

When he started using the substitute guitar(s) he was using clear trebles.


You guys can think what you want. This is a chat list that encourages different opinions.

Personally, my experiences are different but I have no argument with any player or builder who disagrees with my ideals, just share what I know about tone and performance, as a builder and player.

I use D'Addario J46 regular hard tension classical and fine tune guitars for either classical or flamenco tuning, sometimes for cross over.

Dan Zeff recently sold one of my Miguel Rodriguez style classical guitars and the player asked me what strings I used with the build, due to the reasoning that he felt the guitar was not performing as good as it should.

He switched to D'Addario and it eventually came back into its tone mode. And the last I heard was that he was very happy with it.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 8 2020 19:44:33
 
Ricardo

Posts: 12210
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: new build for 68' Conde style fl... (in reply to Tom Blackshear

quote:

I use D'Addario J46 regular hard tension classical and fine tune guitars for either classical or flamenco tuning, sometimes for cross over.


Cool. I usually think of the j45 normal tension as the “standard” baseline set. Is there any reason you prefer the hard tension instead?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 9 2020 4:26:04
 
Echi

 

Posts: 799
Joined: Jan. 11 2013
 

RE: new build for 68' Conde style fl... (in reply to Ricardo

I am too for D'addario Ej46 regular: after many trials I got to the conclusion they have a better performance all in all.
They are good value and a good standard for comparisons between different guitars (they fit well guitars with different 'pulsacion').
Tension is not that much more than Ej45 at the end of the day...
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 9 2020 13:05:15
 
RobJe

 

Posts: 708
Joined: Dec. 16 2006
From: UK

RE: new build for 68' Conde style fl... (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

Cool. I usually think of the j45 normal tension as the “standard” baseline set. Is there any reason you prefer the hard tension instead?

I eventually settled on EJ45s except for one guitar which worked better on Corum Alliance had tension. I have never considered trying low tension strings but I recently found this video extolling their virtues.

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 9 2020 14:06:45
 
Echi

 

Posts: 799
Joined: Jan. 11 2013
 

RE: new build for 68' Conde style fl... (in reply to Ricardo

I have a lot of consideration and esteem for Luciano but I think in this case he said something at least controversial.
I don’t believe high tension stings will lead to bend your guitar neck nor to damage the top. This may be the case just with extremely light or historical instruments.
I suppose it’s mostly about personal taste and the tension you like under your fingers.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 9 2020 14:38:55
 
Tom Blackshear

 

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RE: new build for 68' Conde style fl... (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

Cool. I usually think of the j45 normal tension as the “standard” baseline set. Is there any reason you prefer the hard tension instead?


I over build my guitars a little and then re-leave them to some extent. I get a brighter effect by polishing certain areas on the fan bracing. Also bring down certain tone value to keep the trebles in line to keep them from getting too bright.

All this does is tweak things a little to maintain tone and articulation to give it a vowel tone, to try and avoid just string noise.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 9 2020 14:42:08
 
Tom Blackshear

 

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RE: new build for 68' Conde style fl... (in reply to RobJe

This player gives a good explanation about his guitar. But not all guitars are the same.

He has found a way to make his guitar sound better and play easier but not all guitars will respond the same.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 9 2020 15:18:47
 
JasonM

Posts: 1435
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: new build for 68' Conde style fl... (in reply to Tom Blackshear

I was kind of surprised to hear Luciano’s likes lower tension, he always has a great sound and attack. I heard that Jason McGuire also likes low tension - but take that with a grain of salt. As hard as he plays...

Tom, that’s interesting to know you use EJ46. Of course you also go thinner on your tops too, right? 2 mm or so..
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 9 2020 23:11:31
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 2932
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: new build for 68' Conde style fl... (in reply to JasonM

After years of using Savarez "red cards" on the Arcangel Fernandez blanca, I decided to try the lower tension "white cards." (Actually kind of off-white cards.)

With the red cards the fan braces had "printed" on the top, especially behind the bridge.

To my surprise, the "printing" disappeared with the lower tension strings. I don't hear any decrease in loudness, but I haven't done loudness measurements before and after. I would say tone is slightly warmer.

Left hand is a little bit easier, I have needed to lighten up a little on right hand.

Overall a percetible change, but not night and day. For me the most noticeable change is the need to lighten up a little on the right hand to produce a good tone.

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 10 2020 0:08:24
 
Tom Blackshear

 

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RE: new build for 68' Conde style fl... (in reply to JasonM

quote:

Of course you also go thinner on your tops too, right? 2 mm or so..


It all depends on the top's timber/strength.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 10 2020 3:17:24
 
Echi

 

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RE: new build for 68' Conde style fl... (in reply to Ricardo

Richard, it looks like your Arcangel is made with very thin top reinforced with a strong bracing underneath.
In this case, stronger strings keep the membrane (the top) in constant tension, while low string will have it more relaxed.
I cannot say what's best though.
I had an interesting talk with a luthier famous for his repair works on original Torres guitars; as you know these guitars are very lightly made, and originally thought for gut strings (lower tension than nylon).
Yet he told me that many concert players purposely use medium to high tension strings on Torres (or Torres copies) during their public exhibitions to have the guitar singing; it seems like the guitar gives its best with that. The experiments of Dammann seem to confirm it.

Coming back to the topic: strings are part of a system and work together with the action of the guitar and the top resilience ...
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 10 2020 9:51:24
 
RobJe

 

Posts: 708
Joined: Dec. 16 2006
From: UK

RE: new build for 68' Conde style fl... (in reply to Echi

quote:

original Torres guitars; as you know these guitars are very lightly made, and originally thought for gut strings (lower tension than nylon)


I thought that this was a popular misconception. For a given length and thickness of string, higher density = more tension required to achieve the desired frequency. Gut is more dense than rectified nylon.

Any thoughts on this?

Rob
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 10 2020 16:02:08
 
Echi

 

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Joined: Jan. 11 2013
 

RE: new build for 68' Conde style fl... (in reply to Ricardo

Gut is much more stretchable than nylon so the final diameter of the string (once tuned) is smaller than the equivalent nylon string and so the tension.
Mimmo Peruffo (the chemist and scholar who founded Aquila Corde) wrote about it but I cannot find too much in English.

The point is that a Torres kind of guitar is definitely lighter than today’s standards. Common sense would suggest low tension strings would make it work best while I reported the opposite experience told by some concert players.
EDIT:
1. Dammann - subsequent his studies on Torres - purposely reckon the top thickness to have it taking a pronounced S shape under the tension of the strings.
2. Here is a nice study about string tension:
http://ricerche.aquilacorde.com/wp-content/uploads/equal.pdf
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 11 2020 0:20:58
 
RobJe

 

Posts: 708
Joined: Dec. 16 2006
From: UK

RE: new build for 68' Conde style fl... (in reply to Echi

Thanks for the reference - fascinating stuff. It also led me to consider how string diameter, friction and tension all contribute to the 'feel' when playing.

quote:

Common sense would suggest low tension strings would make it work best


I am not sure why you say this. The majority of Torres guitars fall into the shorter 645mm-650mm scale range. The shorter the the scale length the thicker (ie higher tension) the strings need to be to give normal playing feel.

Rob
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 11 2020 15:02:53
 
Ricardo

Posts: 12210
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: new build for 68' Conde style fl... (in reply to RobJe

quote:

am not sure why you say this. The majority of Torres guitars fall into the shorter 645mm-650mm scale range. The shorter the the scale length the thicker (ie higher tension) the strings need to be to give normal playing feel.


I think it was clear that those guitars were not to be compared to “normal” playing feel guitars of today because they used gut strings exclusively back then. That WAS normal, and thusly, once you guys straighten out the fact that gut is looser or not at pitch, the lighter tension nylon version would be the correct fit for those instruments vs the more robust designed guitars today. In all honesty, you can still get gut strings no? That is what Torres guitars should be fitted with period, if nothing more than authenticity.

And in the end scale length doesn’t matter after ACTION and set up anyway. Every guitar feels “easier” with lighter tension strings, and every guitar sounds “louder” with harder tension Basses. The issue becomes about which set makes the guitar sound OR feel better. Each guitar has a different set up usually so it depends. Easy action set up and light tension is toneless rubber bands. High stiff action and hard tension strings make a guitar feel like driving a truck.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 11 2020 16:23:32
 
Tom Blackshear

 

Posts: 2168
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
 

RE: new build for 68' Conde style fl... (in reply to Ricardo

To all luthiers who are interested, I got together with Adam Buchwald at Allied Lutherie ...



Allied Lutherie
1891 WILLISTON RD
SUITE 19
S. BURLINGTON VT 05403
Adam@alliedlutherie.com
http://www.alliedlutherie.com
802-489-5615
917-273-1497 (cell)

And he has made a bridge with his CNC that perfectly fits my Miguel Rodriguez and Manuel Reyes guitar plans. You can also easily shorten the bridge arms for a Conde style guitar or my Arcangel Fernandez plan.

The bridges come without a tie block design so that you can put your own. This is the best bridge I've seen for the retail market. I will certainly use it for my guitars. I recommend it without reservation.

Attachment (3)

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 17 2020 14:31:30
 
Tom Blackshear

 

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RE: new build for 68' Conde style fl... (in reply to Tom Blackshear

Attachment (3)

The attachment in previous post is three bridge pictures that give you an idea for professional quality.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 21 2020 15:11:20
 
Ricardo

Posts: 12210
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: new build for 68' Conde style fl... (in reply to Tom Blackshear

quote:

I've noticed that sometimes Paco Lucia would change out his third string with a black string to help blend the treble strings together, perhaps to make things flow more evenly.


Actually here was a unique time he did exactly as you described. I haven’t ever seen him do this exact combo other than this video, however I stand corrected about it if it was this you referred to:



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www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 21 2020 20:47:35
 
Tom Blackshear

 

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RE: new build for 68' Conde style fl... (in reply to Ricardo

That's OK Ricardo, no problem. 58 years in this business has shown me a lot of things, probably a lot that I have forgotten.

Obviously, Paco has used a black treble on both rosewood and cypress guitars. It could be that he liked the feel of it

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 22 2020 1:48:17
 
Tom Blackshear

 

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 23 2020 14:56:46
 
Tom Blackshear

 

Posts: 2168
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
 

RE: new build for 68' Conde style fl... (in reply to Tom Blackshear

https://iflamencos.com/estrella-morente-por-solea

Juan Habichuella playing solea has two black trebles.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 23 2020 15:10:11
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