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RE: new build for 68' Conde style fl... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)
well, just when I thought everything was about finished with guitars, along comes a brilliant craftsman that loves guitar building.
His name is Jearson Picado who lives in a town close to me.
We are currently working on a guitar, 2003 Reyes model flamenco negra, with him building to my specs. His french polish is as good as mine ever was and the cosmetic value of the build is spot on.
There is nothing more I can teach him about the building process, except fine tuning, which seems to be very close to being finalized with this current build.
Honestly, he is a better builder than this writer.
It will probably be about a month before the finish out so I'll try to keep you posted as it goes.
RE: new build for 68' Conde style fl... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)
Attention Ricardo,
Strangely enough, Nino Miguel used a dark second and third string on this guitar for his bulerias, as the second piece on this you tube, which indicates that this style was used quite a few years ago with flamenco guitarists.
RE: new build for 68' Conde style fl... (in reply to rombsix)
you know the old saying..........."what's in a name"
Actually just talked to Jearson tonight and he recently sold one of his earlier guitars to Memorial Music in Houston Texas; the store who carries the Francisco Navarro guitars from Mexico.
RE: new build for 68' Conde style fl... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)
Hello.
I received a note from an acoustics engineer in San Juan Puerto Rico and thought you guys might find it interesting, perhaps more knowledgeable than I can understand.
Hello Tom,
I work with Carlos Rodriguez, San Juan Mix Suite, Puerto Rico. My specialty is acoustics, mostly small room acoustics and that's what we do together. My products are the TubeTraps, which I invented and developed. I'm the owner of ASC. I'm an acoustical engineer with masters in engineering(acoustics) and physics.
OK, years ago I got the opportunity to develop a lab manual for a physics book called The Acoustics of the Guitar. It was through a grant from National Science Foundation. I spent the summer studying guitar sound. I would like to share with you basically what I discovered. I've discussed these concepts with other builders and they don't seem to relate to them.
Sound comes off both sides of the guitar surface. The sound off the front side projects into the open space and people believe that is what they are listening to. But this is only 50% of the sound made by the guitar, the other half of the sound is projected into the guitar body cavity. People think that the sound hole is where this inside sound comes out.
Sound hole is Helmholtz resonator to reinforce lowest note of the guitar. It's the fundamental drone tone for the guitar, stimulated by the initial shock of every string pluck, no matter what the string note is.
In my research I found the thump tuned "sound windows" on the top of the guitar are located in a unique position relative to the curved interior sides of the body of the guitar. A portion of a curved side reflects and refocuses the sound back to where the tuned sound window is located. This reflected sound arriving at the back side of the sound window is in phase and in time with the movement of the backside of the sound window. Essentially a standing wave is setup inside the guitar body which reinforces the sound being emitted off the top of the sound window.
Here's how I found this out. I was using a glass tube with a rubber hose attached to it, plugged into my ear to explore the sound inside the guitars.
They were Martin guitars. I put a vibrator on the bridge and did a tone sweep. I heard many different louder and quieter notes. I left tuner on a louder good sounding note and explored the interior of the body with my glass tube. It didn't take long to discover standing wave patterns inside the guitar I used crayons to draw the standing wave patterns I found inside the body, on the top of the guitar. (crayons can be erased easily) I could easily see what was going on, same thing note after note. Different sound windows, and different standing wave patterns.
The reflected sound off the curved sides is refocused back to where the sound came from, the bottom side of the thump tuned sound window. This refocused reflected standing wave reinforces the movement of the sound window which gives the top side of the guitar more sound power. The top of the thump tuned sound window makes louder and longer lasting tones because it is utilizing the sound emitted off the back side of the window. It's a method of acoustic feedback that reinforces the sound being emitted off the front side of the guitar.
The shape of the guitar is because of where the sound windows are located in the top and where the refocusing reflection off the interior sides are located.
I give this to you because Carlos said you share your "secrets" of guitar building, I shared this with Carlos and I decided to share it with you. My son has one of your guitars from Carlos. I'd like to know about your thoughts and/or experiences on this discovery.
RE: new build for 68' Conde style fl... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)
Here is my return note:
Hello
Have you shared this idea with Angel? Science can attack problems to gain what we call information to the mind, and has its value if used properly to find answers to the universal scheme of things. I work with analog techniques to correct guitar tone; with the five senses as well as prayer on occasion :-)
I apply what I call fan brace polishing to develop synergistic communication to the top, which tries to bring the tone into harmony with its inter-dimensional qualities. But the guitar is quite complex in its over-all function of right and left hand articulation, then tone and then to fine tune it to be a playing machine.
The Martin guitar is a steel strung instrument and quite different from a classical guitar. Their restoration dept. gives me credit for what I do and I give them credit for what they do with their steel strung guitars.
I approach fine tuning with a layman's touch and feel, as a guitar player and builder; in this order. My building technique is about par with 85% of most guitar enthusiasts, and this part of the market is what I build for. In other words, I’m quite ignorant when it comes to Science and I would be a poor source to gauge what you are doing in the Scientific field.
To me, it’s not a question of how loud a guitar is but to its quality of character. If science changes it too much, then it is no longer a guitar. But if science fits into certain amplification, then bravo.
RE: new build for 68' Conde style fl... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)
The latest e-mail..........
Hi Tom,
The idea of using internal standing wave feedback to gain amplification was my own idea. There may be some other factors, subjective sound qualities. I wasn't thinking that way at the time.
I'll borrow your guitar from my son and let's see if I can find some standing waves inside of it.
If so, I'll map them and let you know.
I'll wait until I know more before I contact Angel.
RE: new build for 68' Conde style fl... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)
Jearson Picado has agreed to bring his new guitar to me in about 2 weeks, to show me the results of his work on the 2003 Manuel Reyes style flamenco guitar; build from the GAL's guitar plan.
I hope to have this to show to the list members; God willing and the creek don't rise.
RE: new build for 68' Conde style fl... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)
I have a meeting with Jearson Picado and Juan Cadena Wednesday, next week...........to show Cadena Jearson's new guitar. Just a coming together for a personal meet to see if anything transpires for further friendship.
Also, for further cosmetic check for getting into the market place. If the guitar looks good then I'll take some pictures and display here.
Posts: 3437
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
RE: new build for 68' Conde style fl... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)
Is Cadena still making guitars?
I appreciated your introduction to him and the tour of his large commercial woodworking shop, recently devoted to producing luxury interiors for large aircraft--like the Sultan of Brunei's 747.
Cadena certainly had a great stash of good looking guitar wood. I was impressed by the "Reyes" model he built under your direction.
RE: new build for 68' Conde style fl... (in reply to Richard Jernigan)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Richard Jernigan
Is Cadena still making guitars?
I appreciated your introduction to him and the tour of his large commercial woodworking shop, recently devoted to producing luxury interiors for large aircraft--like the Sultan of Brunei's 747.
Cadena certainly had a great stash of good looking guitar wood. I was impressed by the "Reyes" model he built under your direction.
RNJ
Hmm, interesting. What if I told you in another life I did a bunch of contract work for Boeing in Seattle for the BFE division, buyer furnished equipment, mostly on the triple seven line but the four seven line as well. A lot of gold plated, could have been solid gold for all I knew, furnishings. Mostly i just fixed things that didn't fit or were damaged could be litterly anything cosmetic, structural, electrical, a lot was fixing squawks after a FAA or customer walk through... Don't recall a sultan but some birds were headed for the UAE if I recall correctly.
Seems a side gig like this to bolster the payroll of making Flamenco guitars would come in handy.
HR
_____________________________
I prefer my flamenco guitar spicy, doesn't have to be fast, should have some meat on the bones, can be raw or well done, as long as it doesn't sound like it's turning green on an elevator floor.
Posts: 3466
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
RE: new build for 68' Conde style fl... (in reply to ernandez R)
quote:
Don't recall a sultan but some birds were headed for the UAE if I recall correctly. Seems a side gig like this to bolster the payroll of making Flamenco guitars would come in handy.
If the gentleman has a "large commercial woodworking shop, recently devoted to producing luxury interiors for large aircraft--like the Sultan of Brunei's 747," to quote Richard, I would question which is the "side gig," producing luxury interiors for aircraft belonging to multi-billionaires or building flamenco guitars.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
RE: new build for 68' Conde style fl... (in reply to BarkellWH)
quote:
If the gentleman has a "large commercial woodworking shop, recently devoted to producing luxury interiors for large aircraft--like the Sultan of Brunei's 747," to quote Richard, I would question which is the "side gig," producing luxury interiors for aircraft belonging to multi-billionaires or building flamenco guitars.
Bill,
Cadena grew up working for his father on aircraft interiors of all sizes. Juan is now retired from that business and wanted to keep his wood-working skills in shape so he contacted me to teach him how to build flamenco guitars.
He is still putting the shop together so he hasn't started building yet. As far as I know, Juan has closed down all his other furniture interests. He did outrageously gorgeous work on cabinets for high dollar homes.
Personally, I think he is taking his time to see what the guitar market can bear before making the jump into such a shaky situation. As it is, he could always turn his shop into another income producing outlet. He certainly has the skills for it.
RE: new build for 68' Conde style fl... (in reply to Richard Jernigan)
Hi Richard,
I hope things are well with you. Juan is still trying to figure out what he wants to do with his shop. We operate on San Antonio time, which is maybe tomorrow, maybe the next day :-)
Jearson Picado is doing well, so far, and his building techniques are incredible. I think you would be impressed.
RE: new build for 68' Conde style fl... (in reply to ernandez R)
quote:
A lot of gold plated, could have been solid gold for all I knew, furnishings.
To the best of my memory, real gold was used on the furnishings. And Cadena Inter-prizes did all or most all of the furniture. I saw it first hand while it was being built.
RE: new build for 68' Conde style fl... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)
Hello,
My wife is working on pictures of Jearson Picado's guitar today, perhaps to post it later today.
The cosmetic value is very good with french polish, EIRW sides and back with a very nice spruce top. The neck is Spanish cedar with a natural dark color to it.
Right now, the tone seems to be sweet and classical sounding with a low action but should stiffen up with some age as the tone grows. I think it is concert worthy at this time.
Jearson is working on a sound presentation for You Tube and he'll post that as soon as he can.
We have discussed the price potential and have fairly well settled on $4,500 retail to get his work into the market place. So now it is about time to test the market with this Manuel Reyes style.
Jearson's last guitar, Hauser style, went to Memorial Music store in Houston Texas and sold with-in a matter of days so they want another one.
Whether this guitar turns out to be a good classical or flamenco..... will present its true colors as it is played.
RE: new build for 68' Conde style fl... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)
Hello,
This is Jerson's name spelled right...........Jerson Pichardo. And this is his first build of the GAL's Manuel Reyes 2003 guitar plan. The guitar is played by Jose Antonio Guerrero a professor of guitar music at one of the large colleges in San Antonio Texas.
This is not what I would call a professional video but more of a impromptu get together taken with several I-phones by guys here for the meeting. The first part has no sound until the video displays the guitarist playing one of his personal compositions at the end.
The string action is low for flamenco so you will hear some string rattle but I think you might still be able to hear the tone quality come through with the music.
RE: new build for 68' Conde style fl... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)
Come on guys this is not a competition with any builder on this forum. It is about giving a critique on this guitar as best you can, good or bad.
I hesitated to fine tune this one as it has some interesting qualities that stand out, as a classical guitar. Maybe the presentation is not that good but my wife did her best with what she had from the I-phone 4 G with no reverb, just a straight standard set up.
I just talked with Jerson and he told me he sold the guitar yesterday to a lady who visited his shop. It seems as though he is on the way. Thanks for your input.
RE: new build for 68' Conde style fl... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)
Here is one more of Mark Usherovich classical guitar with orchestra. I'm very proud of him as my student who has actually taken what I showed him to a higher level of tonal control.
Mark and Jerson have both be an inspiration to me even though many of my other students seemed be more inclined to just build one guitar for themselves.
This just about sums up my posting here, and I have enjoyed it all these years with a good group of people. And if I ever get the Conde style finished, I'll post it here.
RE: new build for 68' Conde style fl... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)
Hello, just a little up date another Mark Usherovich guitar tune with capo-ed song from an Oriental player, nicely done.
Also an up date that Jerson Pichardo has agreed to help finish off my 68 Conde style for me. He will come to my shop once a week to work under my supervision until completed.
We'll see how this arrangement goes. Perhaps this is my last guitar.
RE: new build for 68' Conde style fl... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)
Hello,
Jerson Pichardo came by the shop today and started the finishing work on the 1968 Conde style guitar. He did some repair work and work on the top then installed the top for a good days work. I'll try and record a video session each time he does any work.
As of this time he seems very fluid in his understanding of the process.
RE: new build for 68' Conde style fl... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)
I'd like to go over a few things about the top graduation:
Right now we are keeping the top fairly thick at 2.1 MM all over.
The finished guitar top will be about 1.8 MM, perhaps a little more and sanded across its area in front of the bridge a little thinner to accommodate the tap plate.
The idea here is to articulate the proper tension of the top since the pattern is somewhat stiff in its center around the bridge area.
RE: new build for 68' Conde style fl... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)
Here is some information on the top. Let me know if it's not clear enough for the idea of a flat top. Some other tops I build are a little rounded but this Conde style is fairly flat.
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