Bogdanovich´s method for flamenco guitars

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mango

Posts: 158
Joined: Apr. 2 2019

Bogdanovich´s method for flamenco g...

Hello foroflamenco!
My Name is Jonas. Nice to meet you...

I just read Bogdanovich´s book about classical guitar making and I think about to give his method a try for a flamenco guitar. What I try to figure out now is what are the important changes to end up with a flamenco guitar and not with a classical one.

Are you familliar with his method?

I think the most important thing will be a smaller distance between the strings and the top at the bridge. To get that right I think I will have to change the design of the Solera. Bogdanivich uses a positive Neck angle (2,5 mm at the Top of the Solera). That looks ok to me. Do you agree? I think to compensate the Neck angle and the dome of the top (25' radius) the lower bout of the guitar is tilted 4mm. Do you think it would be enough just to get rid of these 4mm? Or would it be better to increase the Neck angle a bit more? What else would you change to make it sound flamenco?

Thanks to all!

Jonas

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 5 2019 20:41:00

JasonM

Posts: 1991
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Bogdanovich´s method for flamen... (in reply to mango)

Welcome to the foro.

I don’t know Bagdonovich’s book but why not follow a plan for an actual flamenco guitar? I’m building my first guitar and chose the Reyes plan from the Guild of American Luthiers. However, I did modify the geometry of the setup to suit my liking. You can use this formula to figure out the theoretical geometry. And it’s important to understand how this relationship works:

SH = FB + FH + (A * 2) - (N + D)

SH = string height at the bridge
FB = fretboard thickness
FH = fret height
A = string height at 12th fret
N = amount of neck deflection at the nut ie 2mm
D = dome

Typical SH for flamenco is 7mm. Action might be 3mm for bass E string. From what I’ve learned from the great builders on the forum
Here, I doubt anyone uses more than 2.5mm neck deflection or 3mm dome. Remember that you can also ramp the fretboard. For my build I went with a 2.5mm neck deflection, 1.5mm dome, and 6mm fretboard. Now that the guitar is assembled I’m finding I need to ramp the fretboard by about a mm.

About the Bagdonovich Solera. I don’t know how much experience you have but if this is your first build I would avoid it. I was advised to do the same on here for my first build and it’s sound advice. I would use a traditional Solera like that in Roy Courtnals book or one that is dished out in the lower bout. This is what most flamenco builders seem to use anyway.

Having the right string heights and geometry is probably THE most important aspect of a flamenco guitar. So whatever you decide make sure you have the best chance of getting it correct.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 6 2019 14:32:55

mango

Posts: 158
Joined: Apr. 2 2019

RE: Bogdanovich´s method for flamen... (in reply to mango)

Thank you Jason!
That helps a lot... it makes totally sense to keep that calculation in mind when making decisions that affekt the string action.
My plan was to use the Bogdanovich book as a guide through the whole construction process, but change things wherever it seems right to me. So some information from those plans from the Guild of Americas Luthiers could be interesting. Why did you choose the Reyes plan over the others? Did you compare them? And how detailed are these plans?

It seems to me that beside string action and wood selection another key faktor for a flamenco sound is the thickness of the top, back and sides. Do you agree? With a fast responsive sound in my mind it seems logic to me that at least the top must be thinner in a way to produce that fast attack? Maybe only thinner at some points? or overall? Must that be compensated by thicker braces somehow?

Bracing generally seems to be a bit mystical to me. Obviously the pattern of the braces used in flamencas are not generally different from the ones in classical guitars. One thing that I noticed when I compared the bracings of some of my own guitars is that the braces of the flamencas often are a bit thicker directly under the bridge. Is that a known technique for flamenco sound? Are there other differences between classical and flamenco bracings in general?

Thank you! Good night!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 6 2019 21:02:48

mango

Posts: 158
Joined: Apr. 2 2019

RE: Bogdanovich´s method for flamen... (in reply to mango)

Sorry!
Maybe that were too many questions at once ;-) ?

Have a sunny day everyone!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 8 2019 11:54:46

JasonM

Posts: 1991
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Bogdanovich´s method for flamen... (in reply to mango)

No that’s ok I had a lot of questions too before I started (still do), but all the stuff to learn is what makes it interesting. I’m only equipped to give you a few answers though.

Plans from the Guild of A. Luthiers are pretty nice. Most start from the Barbero or Santos plan and many flamencos are just derivatives of these. I chose the Reyes plan because I was looking for a little more modern sound and Tom Blackshear from this forum drafted the plan. It was either this or the Barbero. There is lots of info in the archives on these plans. The Reyes plan is very good and has all the info except for top doming. I have a thread about this when I started my build.

As far as top thickness and bracing goes this is where there are no clear answers or definite rules from what I’ve gathered.other members know a lot more than I. But I think in general flamenco blancas are lighter weight than classicals. Most use a traditional 5 or 7 fan brace system, Spanish cedar necks and lighter bridges, and this helps to decrease sustain.

I’ve seen many rules for flamenco guitars broken. For example, keeping certain top thickness profiles or only using certain linings in an effort to loose sound. These things don’t seem to guarantee anything. The most important aspect is the system as a whole and the builders experience in knowing what works for him. And wood ofcourse.

old school flamenco guitars did have very thin tops and thin back and sides. But this doesn’t seem to mean that a guitar will sound flamenco. Condes/Esteso can have thicker tops. I recently played a guitar by a Luthier that copied an older Conde. The top was 2.8mm around the bridge! And it sounded great. Who knows if it was intentional or not. The thicker brace under the bridge, I assume you mean bridge patch? Seems to be more common with flamenco guitars to increase stiffness under the bridge but again, it isn’t always the case.

It’s been said before that a lot of what makes a flamenco guitar sound flamenco is the player.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 8 2019 17:25:44

Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3361
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Bogdanovich´s method for flamen... (in reply to JasonM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JasonM
It’s been said before that a lot of what makes a flamenco guitar sound flamenco is the player.

My spruce/Indian '73 Romanillos, played with flamenco technique, sounds great picado, but rasgueados are better on my two flamenca blancas--drier and more percussive.

The Romanillos is "modeled on" a 1950 Hauser. Mario Escudero recorded a whole flamenco album on a Hauser classical, and said, "There are no flamenco guitars and classical guitars, only good guitars and bad guitars."

I don't necessarily agree with Escudero, but he obviously knew a lot more about the subject than I do.

RNJ

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 8 2019 19:12:45

JasonM

Posts: 1991
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Bogdanovich´s method for flamen... (in reply to Richard Jernigan)

In the Making Master Guitars book, The Hernandez y Aguado guitar looks like it would make a fine flamenco. 2mm top, back, and sides, 5 strut fan brace and two closing struts, and a bridge patch.

I also agree with you about classical guitars being used for flamenco. Not dry enough for my taste

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 9 2019 2:33:34

mango

Posts: 158
Joined: Apr. 2 2019

RE: Bogdanovich´s method for flamen... (in reply to JasonM)

quote:

Plans from the Guild of A. Luthiers are pretty nice. Most start from the Barbero or Santos plan and many flamencos are just derivatives of these. I chose the Reyes plan because I was looking for a little more modern sound and Tom Blackshear from this forum drafted the plan. It was either this or the Barbero. There is lots of info in the archives on these plans. The Reyes plan is very good and has all the info except for top doming. I have a thread about this when I started my build.

Interesting! Are these plans just a drawing of the geometrys of the guitar? Or are they also a guide for the building process?

quote:

As far as top thickness and bracing goes this is where there are no clear answers or definite rules from what I’ve gathered.other members know a lot more than I. But I think in general flamenco blancas are lighter weight than classicals. Most use a traditional 5 or 7 fan brace system, Spanish cedar necks and lighter bridges, and this helps to decrease sustain.

Maybe it´s more about to get the right ratio between top thickness and stiffness of the bracing more that the actual pattern or shape of the sticks...

quote:

The thicker brace under the bridge, I assume you mean bridge patch? Seems to be more common with flamenco guitars to increase stiffness under the bridge but again, it isn’t always the case.

No I mean the shape of the bracing sticks itself. They are more thick under the bridge

quote:

It’s been said before that a lot of what makes a flamenco guitar sound flamenco is the player.

Totally true! Of course only because we know that, we can start talking about things like bracings ot thickness ;-)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 10 2019 8:46:08

JasonM

Posts: 1991
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Bogdanovich´s method for flamen... (in reply to mango)

Plans are just measurements not an actual guide. So you could use the Bagdonovich and other sources for a guide. Of course like I mentioned, because of the different Solera he uses his approach to the assembly stage will also be different but there is a lot of overlap elsewhere I’m sure. You can also use Pablo Requena’s videos on YouTube for assembly with a more traditional Solera

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 10 2019 15:26:31

mango

Posts: 158
Joined: Apr. 2 2019

RE: Bogdanovich´s method for flamen... (in reply to mango)

Im just collecting some tools that I will need. Bogdanovich uses seven different plains (block plane, shoulder plane, smoothing plane, shooting plane, compass plane, spokeshave and several cabinet scrapers). I´m not able to buy all of these in good quality if I also want to buy wood for this project ;-)

My idea is to buy one good block plane and then try to handle all important tasks with only this. Do you think it´s possible?

Other questions:

Which tool do you recommend to dish out the dome in the solera? Bogdanovich uses his compass plane but is it also possible with a chisel or any other inexpensive tool? I mean to end up with a good result...

Which tool for shaping the backside of the Neck? Don´t want to buy a spoeshave only for that... files, chisels?

Thank you! And happy easter!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 16 2019 11:26:12

Echi

Posts: 1079
Joined: Jan. 11 2013

RE: Bogdanovich´s method for flamen... (in reply to mango)

An angle grinder with variable speed or a powerful orbital sander. The plywood will show you if you are doing it right.
Alternatively you can shape yourself a piece of wood with the same shape of the top doming, stick some sandpaper on it and go by hand.
A couple of Quiangsheng block planes (low and regular angle) a Veritas miniature plane (or a cheap one you can find on the bay) a couple of scalpers and a homemade circle cutter can do almost everything.
To join the plates you my need a longer plane. In the meantime you can work with a block of wood and sandpaper.
I bought a cheap Anant plane and took some time to rectify the sole but now it works well.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 16 2019 13:40:16

mango

Posts: 158
Joined: Apr. 2 2019

RE: Bogdanovich´s method for flamen... (in reply to mango)

Thank you Echi!
What difference makes the cutting angle of a block plain?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 16 2019 17:48:57

JasonM

Posts: 1991
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Bogdanovich´s method for flamen... (in reply to mango)

Hey Mango,

Don’t overwhelm yourself with all the tools. You don’t need all that stuff Bagdonovich has.

I’d recommend buying tools you might need or want as you go through each step of the process. Get yourself a block plane and maybe number 5 jack. You can get used Stanley planes on eBay or flea markets. A low angle plane is nice to have to reduce tear out in figured wood. I started with a cheap, used block plane and later upgraded to a Lee Neilsen. I’d recommend a hand router as you can do a lot with it.

Decide on a plan, get a Spanish cedar neck blank and a head plate, and just start!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 16 2019 21:18:05

mango

Posts: 158
Joined: Apr. 2 2019

RE: Bogdanovich´s method for flamen... (in reply to JasonM)

Thank you Jason! That was the answer I was hoping for :-)
So for the first block plane you would also recommend one with a low angle if possible?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 16 2019 22:53:22

JasonM

Posts: 1991
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Bogdanovich´s method for flamen... (in reply to mango)

Low angle block plane is preferable. And a long low angle plane for plate thicknessing and jointing. Or like Echi said you can use a long flat sanding block.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 17 2019 19:30:34

mango

Posts: 158
Joined: Apr. 2 2019

RE: Bogdanovich´s method for flamen... (in reply to mango)

Some progress here...
It took a while to make all the jigs and templates that Bogdanovich uses, but now I'm nearly done with them and started to touch the wood for the guitar. Actually I learned a lot during making all the fixtures because many basic woodworking skills and tools are completely new for me. I did a few changes for the design of the guitar but decided to follow the book more or less for the construction process...

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 10 2019 21:46:30

mango

Posts: 158
Joined: Apr. 2 2019

RE: Bogdanovich´s method for flamen... (in reply to mango)

I also did a self-made bending iron and a thickness gauge...

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 10 2019 21:50:19

constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1626
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Bogdanovich´s method for flamen... (in reply to mango)

quote:

I think the most important thing will be a smaller distance between the strings and the top at the bridge.

I think that could be the least important thing. Well, some guitarists feel that the string height at the bridge is very important. Others, such as me, don't care about it much in our playing. I don't think it affects the character of the sound a lot. Other players find that it affects the execution of flamenco right-hand techniques. In any case, I think you will find that it is not something that can be determined precisely on paper. You may have to make several soleras (or modify one several times) to get it the way you want; I did. Also, even with the right solera, learning to control it consistently can be challenging.

More important things for making the guitar sound flamenco might be the thicknesses of the wood and the amount of soundboard bracing.

Nice start on tools and fixtures and neck.

_____________________________

Ethan Deutsch
www.edluthier.com
www.facebook.com/ethandeutschguitars
www.youtube.com/marioamayaflamenco
I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 11 2019 0:43:57

mango

Posts: 158
Joined: Apr. 2 2019

RE: Bogdanovich´s method for flamen... (in reply to mango)

Thank you Ethan!
I‘m looking forward to try and error all these things :-) It is actually part of what makes fun for me. For my right hand technique it is really important to have a low action at the bridge. I built a Solera with 2,5mm doming and 2,5mm neck angle (diff at the nut). Does that sound like a good starting point to you? Maybe the fine tuning can be done by planing the fretboard? Furthermore I want to make the top and back thinner, the Sides slightly thicker and use a straight bracing pattern...

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 11 2019 8:01:12

constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1626
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Bogdanovich´s method for flamen... (in reply to mango)

quote:

Maybe the fine tuning can be done by planing the fretboard?

I think you know what you're doing.

_____________________________

Ethan Deutsch
www.edluthier.com
www.facebook.com/ethandeutschguitars
www.youtube.com/marioamayaflamenco
I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 11 2019 12:45:53

JasonM

Posts: 1991
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Bogdanovich´s method for flamen... (in reply to mango)

Wow Mango, you are doing really well! Everything looks really clean, headstock looks great. Much cleaner than my first attemp. Keep us posted on your progress.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 11 2019 20:14:53

mango

Posts: 158
Joined: Apr. 2 2019

RE: Bogdanovich´s method for flamen... (in reply to mango)

Thank you guys!
Today I finished the mold for laminating the sides.
And.... I finally succeeded to get these scrapers sharp. So happy about that, because that was a bit challenging to me. You know... I never worked with these before. Actually an amazing tool if you know how to get it sharp haha :-) The surface of my cypress looks just perfect already...

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 14 2019 22:39:57

mango

Posts: 158
Joined: Apr. 2 2019

RE: Bogdanovich´s method for flamen... (in reply to mango)

I also made a design for a rosette. Do you think the curved black lines would be too thin like this? One square is only 0.5mm...
And another question: How do you cut veneers that thin? With a knife? My saws seem not be able to make a clean cut with 0.5mm veneers.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 14 2019 23:23:57

mango

Posts: 158
Joined: Apr. 2 2019

RE: Bogdanovich´s method for flamen... (in reply to mango)

Today I touched the soundboard for the first time. Glueing the two pieces worked great, but planing the soft spruce felt strange. It seemed like the left side wanted to be planed downwards and the right side upwards. How can that be? It is a bookmatched pair. How is your technique for planing the top? Just across the grain to avoid strange behaviour? Or maybe with another kind of plane? I only have one low angle block plane. In the end I sanded the top down to the desired thickness which worked good but produced a lot of dust...

I also bended and laminated one of my sides. Outside is cypress, inside walnut... let's see what that does ;-)

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 16 2019 20:57:45

Echi

Posts: 1079
Joined: Jan. 11 2013

RE: Bogdanovich´s method for flamen... (in reply to mango)

Just my 2 cents: a table with strong runout? As the table is open like a book and then joined at the centre the fibre direction takes a different orientation in the 2 halves.

Personally I wouldn’t laminate the sides in a flamenco guitar. In my opinion flexible sides work better for the purpose.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 17 2019 14:44:03

mango

Posts: 158
Joined: Apr. 2 2019

RE: Bogdanovich´s method for flamen... (in reply to mango)

I know many builders prefer flexible sides for a flamenca. But I decided to give it a try as it is part of the method I am following for this first built. Also many guitars that I like have very thin tops and backs, so maybe its also good to have a bit of structure in the sides if I want to go this way...
Did you try it out for a flamenco guitar?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 17 2019 17:37:57

mango

Posts: 158
Joined: Apr. 2 2019

RE: Bogdanovich´s method for flamen... (in reply to mango)

worked pretty well so far...

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 17 2019 20:52:40

mango

Posts: 158
Joined: Apr. 2 2019

RE: Bogdanovich´s method for flamen... (in reply to mango)

I'm stuck a bit at the rosette for this project :-/
As Bogdanovich´s approach on rosettes doesn't fit my taste at all, I decided to try the traditional mosaic method as described in Courtnall´s book. I felt very clever by making a design that uses one 10x10 pattern that repeats itself in four different ways to form a 20x20 pattern. Now I see that this idea was just stupid as it is double scraping work and it seems to be impossible to line it up precisely. Also I had problems to glue the planks perfectly together. Can you tell me how to make it fit and apply the glue to the tiny planks in a smart way?
If I still like the design tomorrow I will start from the top... or maybe make a design that is more simple...

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 31 2019 20:42:51

JasonM

Posts: 1991
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Bogdanovich´s method for flamen... (in reply to mango)

One method I’ve seen for gluing the veneer sticks together is to assemble the stacked log first with no glue, then use water diluted white glue and basically wash the entire log in the glue so that it seeps and permeates between all the veneers. Then when the glue dries you clean up the glue residue.

Btw I like your shop.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 1 2019 21:10:12

RobF

Posts: 1515
Joined: Aug. 24 2017

RE: Bogdanovich´s method for flamen... (in reply to mango)

Hi Jonas, if you haven’t started over or cut the sticks into tiles yet, you still might be able salvage this. The problem is the circumference of the outer ring is greater than the inner. In other words, you might need 65 tiles to complete the outer ring, but only 63 for the inner.

A possible solution, if you haven’t done any tapering yet, is to remove just a little bit more material when tapering the stick that will be used for the inner ring. You can figure out how much by calculating the outer circumference of each ring, divide the circumference of the outer ring by the raw tile width (~5mm), and then divide the circumference of the inner ring by the result to give you the target width for the outer edge of the inner tiles. You’ll need to make the inner tiles that much smaller enough to end up with the same number of tiles for each ring.

You can avoid the math by drawing out the rings and marking the tapers with lines (like slices of a pie) then just hold the ends of the sticks up to the drawing and eyeball it as you apply the taper.

The result still might not be good enough to make you happy, but it’s worth trying. If you don’t like how it turns out there’s no harm done, experience has been gained, and a simpler pattern beckons.

Also, I have a quick and easy method for gluing up the stick but I need both hands to do it and they get messy with glue. If I can get someone to take pictures for me as I do one I can post a mini tutorial. I don’t need to do any new rosettes at the moment, but maybe I’ll whip a simple one together for a pictorial.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 2 2019 1:49:31