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RE: Bogdanovich´s method for flamenco guitars   You are logged in as Guest
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RobF

Posts: 344
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: Bogdanovich´s method for flamen... (in reply to JasonM

quote:

Btw I like your shop.

We’re going to have to do a “show us your shop” thread. I like looking at other shops, it’s generally humbling, but I always get great ideas.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 2 2019 1:57:25
 
constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1370
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Bogdanovich´s method for flamen... (in reply to mango

It sounds like RobF glues the planks up the way I do. I have a suggestion for gluing the stack of planks together: Take a block of wood, maybe 10 cm x 10 cm in cross section and as long as your sticks. Use a table saw or router table to cut a rectangular channel in it lengthwise, just wide enough for a plank and deeper than the log will be. The extra depth is for a plunger that you will make of another piece of wood that will be the width of a plank. Okay, I lied a little bit: make the channel wide enough to fit the planks wrapped in wax paper. I think you get the idea. Apply glue to the surfaces to be glued and assemble the log. Then wrap it in waxed paper and push it into the channel, followed by the plunger. Clamp the plunger to the block.

_____________________________

Ethan Deutsch
www.edluthier.com
www.facebook.com/ethandeutschguitars
www.youtube.com/marioamayaflamenco
I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 2 2019 3:02:28
 
mango

Posts: 55
Joined: Apr. 2 2019
 

RE: Bogdanovich´s method for flamen... (in reply to JasonM

Thank you guys for your thoughts!

@JasonM - That sounds promising. I can imagine it is much easier to keep everything lined up when the glue is more liquid and when all planks get in contact with the glue at the same time... maybe I will give it a try although it will probably be a big mess and waste of glue ;-)

@RobF - yes, probably it would be possible to fix it the way you described. But as I became very quick in cutting veneer strips during this first try ;-) I decided to do it again and make one big stack of 20x20 that will be much more easy to line up. Also in the first try the motive got a little distorted, so in the end I also think the result will look better if I do it again. At least if I improve my way of applying the glue, haha

@Ethan - Thanks for sharing your method. Unfortunately I have no table saw. I made another fixture as you see on the photos. Perhaps the problem was more about applying the glue. Also maybe I used too much pressure for the clamps, I don't know...

quote:

Btw I like your shop.


haha, thanks! It is actually very small but nice. It is a cellar that seems to be used as a shelter during the second world war. It has a very old and heavy steel door at the entrance. In the 80s it was a rehearsal room for some punk bands. The whole building was a squad at this time. Now we use the other rooms as a recording studio...

I would love to see some pics of your shops. And also your glueing tutorial RobF!





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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 2 2019 9:53:16
 
constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1370
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Bogdanovich´s method for flamen... (in reply to mango

quote:

Unfortunately I have no table saw.

You could use a router (table) to make the channel. I wanted to upload a picture but haven't been able to lately (not with Firefox, but now okay with Safari). I think the jig with a plunger would help a lot. In your setup, you have nothing to align the planks side to side (up and down in your photo--where I realize that you are gluing up veneers to make planks).



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_____________________________

Ethan Deutsch
www.edluthier.com
www.facebook.com/ethandeutschguitars
www.youtube.com/marioamayaflamenco
I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 2 2019 14:34:23
 
El Burdo

 

Posts: 509
Joined: Sep. 8 2011
 

RE: Bogdanovich´s method for flamen... (in reply to mango

quote:

if you haven’t started over or cut the sticks into tiles yet, you still might be able salvage this


Yes, it doesn't look that bad. The base of the loop (the open part) is luckily at the bottom of the tile (once assembled from the quarters) so planing the tiles will only reduce the open 'thread' part a little on each side of the tile. The loop itself might be affected at its widest part (being lower than the apex of the angled side) but it might not be too blatant. It will also maybe leave the loop base with a slight upward angle but it doesn't look like it would be too pronounced. If the tile was reversed, planing the tile would remove the edges of the loop which would be visually obvious (I would think, bearing in mind my limited experience).
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 2 2019 16:32:46
 
Armando

Posts: 279
Joined: May 27 2005
From: Zürich, Switzerland

RE: Bogdanovich´s method for flamen... (in reply to mango

The solera with a ramp is something that i would consider to be an invention of José Luis Romanillos rather than Bogdanovic and it is a thing tipically used on classical guitars as Romanillos have built classical guitars only. Regardless, i would not say that the system as such doesn't make sense in a flamenco guitar too. It just has to be adapted for the flamenco guitar.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 2 2019 20:41:19
 
mango

Posts: 55
Joined: Apr. 2 2019
 

RE: Bogdanovich´s method for flamen... (in reply to RobF

Finally the second try was more successfull. Glueing the planks all at the same time with more liquid glue and using less pressure made a big difference. Thank you guys!







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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 2 2019 11:44:07
 
RobF

Posts: 344
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: Bogdanovich´s method for flamen... (in reply to mango

Looks great!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 2 2019 15:30:48
 
JasonM

Posts: 1056
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Bogdanovich´s method for flamen... (in reply to mango

Wow it does look super clean!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 3 2019 15:53:46
 
mango

Posts: 55
Joined: Apr. 2 2019
 

RE: Bogdanovich´s method for flamen... (in reply to RobF

Thank you :-)
So, next step is to make the rosette. A few questions:

Do you use a circle cutter to cut the channel into the soundboard? Does it work with a router as well? Standard router bit?

Is it a good way to cut small channels for just a few strips first... then glue them in, plane down and then cut the next channel when the first strips are dry? Or maybe start with a big channel for the tiles and then cut the channels for the strips around them afterwards?

Pablo Requena describes a method in a youtube tutorial where he cuts the whole channel first. Then he fiddles in everything, takes it out again with some tape in one piece, then puts the glue and fiddles in the whole piece with the tape back again...



  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 6 2019 14:43:46
 
mango

Posts: 55
Joined: Apr. 2 2019
 

RE: Bogdanovich´s method for flamen... (in reply to RobF

This guy just puts super glue from the top when all strips are fiddled into the slot. Perhaps more easy than taking out everything again? look around 8:00min...

https://youtu.be/IwPSqJS2uEE
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 12 2019 22:48:57
 
constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1370
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Bogdanovich´s method for flamen... (in reply to mango

Sometimes it is easier or better to do it in sections, like route the channel (yes, with a router) for the central mosaic and inlay that. Then route the channels on both sides of the mosaic for the next lines or half herringbone, or whatever and inlay them. Etc. That way you keep things more even and can even round off the corners of the mosaic with the router.

_____________________________

Ethan Deutsch
www.edluthier.com
www.facebook.com/ethandeutschguitars
www.youtube.com/marioamayaflamenco
I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 13 2019 4:33:40
 
RobF

Posts: 344
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: Bogdanovich´s method for flamen... (in reply to mango

quote:

Do you use a circle cutter to cut the channel into the soundboard? Does it work with a router as well? Standard router bit?


Hi Mango. Sorry for the late response, I haven’t been on the Foro and missed your question. If it’s not too late, I’ll throw in my two cents...

Either router or blade is good, the main concern when cutting the channel is to not mess up the edges. If a blade is used always run the cut with the grain. If a router is used then a spiral down-cut bit works well. It can be a good idea to sneak up to the edge with multiple cuts, especially when the bit gets older and is not as sharp.

I’ve tried all the installation methods mentioned in the earlier posts and each method has its good points and bad. At this point, I like doing it with individual channels.

The tape method works well and is really just a variation on how a premade rosette is installed. The fit benefits from being kept a very small amount loose. Working gently from the edges while not applying any pressure at the centre until the full rosette is inserted is the key. Keeping the edges glue free is also important, as the glue will swell the wood and make the channel tighter. Care must be taken not to force anything and avoid collapsing the wood at the edges of the channel. The edge of a ruler or stick can be used to push the rosette edges sideways to give some more space. It’s better to remove the rosette and start over if trouble arises.

Installing the components dry and then fixing with ultra thin CA can also be done. If there is any concern about the bottom not getting enough glue, a few very small holes can be drilled through the the rosette channel and the glue then applied through the holes from the back. A rosette patch can serve to cover these holes afterwards. It is very important, if this method is used, to not get any CA into the space between the top and the outermost veneer strips of the rosette. CA will discolour both cedar and spruce if it soaks into the end grain. To seal that portion, either use hot hide glue or apply a wash coat of shellac first before applying the CA.

Using separate channels has more steps and takes longer to do but it removes a lot of the stress from the process. A few other advantages are - the border routes can clean up the edges of the mosaic tiles, it allows experimentation with different border schemes before committing to glue, and a good snug fit can be made for the borders, which leads to a nice, crisp looking result. If this method is used it’s a good idea to clamp the top to the workboard and not move anything until the entire job is done. Any movement of the pivot pin in relation to the top can throw a subsequent circle cut out of alignment with the previous.

There’s lots of other ways to do this, too. Same with mosaic tile making, lots of ways to do it. Some are more production oriented and are geared to making a lot of rosettes at once. It’s good to try the different methods as you come across them and then settle on the one that works best for your own circumstances. I guess that applies to pretty well every step in the guitar making process.

P.S. I didn’t watch any of the videos referred to in the previous posts, so please forgive if I’m just restating stuff already covered in them.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 13 2019 15:45:42
 
mango

Posts: 55
Joined: Apr. 2 2019
 

RE: Bogdanovich´s method for flamen... (in reply to RobF

Thank you guys for your detailed answers! I'm very happy to be part of this forum :-)
I will probably give the step by step method a try. I already built a circle attachment for my router. I have only one 6mm spiral-down-cut bit. This one will do the job I guess. Or would it be better to use a smaller one?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 16 2019 22:36:36
 
RobF

Posts: 344
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: Bogdanovich´s method for flamen... (in reply to mango

quote:

I have only one 6mm spiral-down-cut bit. This one will do the job I guess. Or would it be better to use a smaller one?

6mm can get the job done for three channels. 18mm is a nice size for a rosette and having equal widths for the mosaic and border channels is a well balanced design and pleasing to the eye. But a 6mm bit for an 18mm rosette isn’t leaving much room for error if the cut pulls at all. Doing multiple passes with something smaller is probably better for the long run, but 6mm should do in a pinch.

Probably making a 3/4” or a slightly larger 20mm rosette would be less stressful. This would allow a couple of slightly offset passes to be made to define each channel (maybe that’s already what you’re intending to do).

*edit* I should add that there’s nothing wrong with the 6mm bit. It’s totally up to the task, it’s just nice to leave some wiggle room in the dimensions as the odd mishap is just part of the game and can happen.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 16 2019 23:54:13
 
mango

Posts: 55
Joined: Apr. 2 2019
 

RE: Bogdanovich´s method for flamen... (in reply to RobF

Thank you guys! With your help I was finally able to finish my first rosette. I first did the channel for the tiles and then two more for the rims afterwards. Worked pretty good. Now I need bring the top to it's final thickness. So a little thicker under the bridge and a little thinner towards the edge? Between 2 to 2.5mm or so?



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 17 2020 19:21:02
 
mango

Posts: 55
Joined: Apr. 2 2019
 

RE: Bogdanovich´s method for flamen... (in reply to RobF

Well... I brought it down to about 2,3mm now. This is my first soundboard, but it feels quite thin already. It is stiff along the grain but pretty flexible across. Guess that's how it should be right?



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 20 2020 0:23:41
 
Echi

 

Posts: 650
Joined: Jan. 11 2013
 

RE: Bogdanovich´s method for flamen... (in reply to RobF

Hi, in a general sense it’s ok.
The thing is that you can assess the right thickness for you just in relation with the whole thing (the bracing pattern, the plantilla (shape) the doming and the bridge).
Lovely rosette and well made: your guitar looks promising.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 20 2020 9:07:40
 
RobF

Posts: 344
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: Bogdanovich´s method for flamen... (in reply to mango

The rosette look nice and crisp and clean. Well done!

I think you’re good at 2.3mm. There’s no need to go any less, or do anything like thinning the edges, at this phase. There will be some additional reduction during the cleanup of the binding area and during preparation for applying the finish and it will likely end up at something in the area of 2.0mm at the edges with 2.2mm centre. Also, I wouldn’t stress too much about the exact final dimensions, just be mindful not to take too much off during cleanup and everything should turn out fine.

A tip for when the guitar is assembled, pre-finish. It’s almost a given it may suffer the odd little ding during the build process. Instead of attacking the wood with sandpaper, the dent can often be soaked out by wetting it with the corner of a paper towel dipped in water. If the fibres of the wood aren’t broken, the dent should completely disappear or be significantly reduced. Doing stuff like this helps avoid over thinning through crisis and allows you to stay in the area of the target thickness.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 20 2020 13:07:40
 
mango

Posts: 55
Joined: Apr. 2 2019
 

RE: Bogdanovich´s method for flamen... (in reply to RobF

quote:

It’s almost a given it may suffer the odd little ding during the build process. Instead of attacking the wood with sandpaper, the dent can often be soaked out by wetting it with the corner of a paper towel dipped in water.

Which dent are you speaking of? You mean the wrong router channel on top of the rosette? That will be under the fingerboard anyway. How can the guitar suffer from that? Or do you mean something else?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 20 2020 22:19:52
 
RobF

Posts: 344
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: Bogdanovich´s method for flamen... (in reply to mango

I’m not talking about any existing dent, I’m just suggesting that if you do happen to get a dent or ding it is a good idea to try to swell it out before unnecessarily thinning the panel with sandpaper. I mentioned it because you were asking about thicknesses. It was intended as a helpful hint.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 21 2020 1:17:58
 
mango

Posts: 55
Joined: Apr. 2 2019
 

RE: Bogdanovich´s method for flamen... (in reply to RobF

Ah ok... now I got your point. :-) A good hint indeed! Thank you! Just my bad english...
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 21 2020 7:25:07
 
JasonM

Posts: 1056
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Bogdanovich´s method for flamen... (in reply to mango

Wow super clean Mango. Nice job.

For my next guitar and rosette I’m thinking of trying the method of assembling it in a piece of scrap wood backed with paper, then transfer it to the soundboard. Probably best for all the mistakes I make. But you Mango, you’ve got the fine skills amigo!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 22 2020 20:50:10
 
Tom Blackshear

 

Posts: 1978
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
 

RE: Bogdanovich´s method for flamen... (in reply to mango

quote:

Thank you guys! With your help I was finally able to finish my first rosette



Mango, your rosette work is very nice but for me, if it doesn't have some red color in it, then it's not complete.

Red, green, natural color, and black is my choice.

Somewhere this rosette has to have a hint of red :-)

_____________________________

Tom Blackshear Guitar maker
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 23 2020 14:37:39
 
mango

Posts: 55
Joined: Apr. 2 2019
 

RE: Bogdanovich´s method for flamen... (in reply to Tom Blackshear

quote:

Somewhere this rosette has to have a hint of red :-)


That sounds like a good advice for future Projects :-) Thank you!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 23 2020 21:42:27
 
mango

Posts: 55
Joined: Apr. 2 2019
 

RE: Bogdanovich´s method for flamen... (in reply to JasonM

quote:

you’ve got the fine skills amigo!

Muchas gracias! In the end this rosette worked out nicely, but man, I didn't expected this to be so time consuming...
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 23 2020 21:43:58
 
mango

Posts: 55
Joined: Apr. 2 2019
 

RE: Bogdanovich´s method for flamen... (in reply to RobF

Today I also started working on the wood for the back. It seems that this guitar won't have a back strip ;-)



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 23 2020 21:47:44
 
ernandez R

 

Posts: 21
Joined: Mar. 25 2019
From: Alaska USA

RE: Bogdanovich´s method for flamen... (in reply to RobF

Really cool how you took your rosset idea, stuck with it, and had it come out so well.

Tom, no worries, Mango has many ways to get some blood, I mean red into that guitar somewhere ;) : blood sweat and tears.

Disappointed in the back though, I was invisioning a smaller version of your rosette going down the middle... May as well make an extra piece to put over your tie block and down the middle of your headstock veneer... Just take a moment to split that back with a sharp knife, square it up on the shooting board, and glue in that back strip.

Enjoying your progress, keep up the good work,

HR
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 24 2020 3:29:45
 
mango

Posts: 55
Joined: Apr. 2 2019
 

RE: Bogdanovich´s method for flamen... (in reply to ernandez R

quote:

I was invisioning a smaller version of your rosette going down the middle


I like the idea a lot! But this time I will have keep it as it is because I already thinned it down. Would be too difficult to glue it again like that I guess... my plan is to let the back overhang as the heel cap and put the binding around it... could also look nice, don’t you think so?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 24 2020 12:16:41
 
RobF

Posts: 344
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: Bogdanovich´s method for flamen... (in reply to mango

That’s a nice piece of Cypress.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 25 2020 2:09:30
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