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flyeogh

Posts: 471
Joined: Oct. 13 2004
 

RE: Flamenco guitar pricing (in reply to NorCalluthier

quote:

My question is how much can I ever hope to sell my flamenco guitars for.


Just a thought. Do some luthiers not make enough of the creation experience for the punter?

I loved being involved when my guitar was made in 2005. I'd have paid at least 25% for that.

I visited some luthiers in Spain where you ordered, and 3 months later a guitar would turn up. May as well buy off the top shelf

_____________________________

nigel (el raton de Watford - now Puerto de Santa Maria, Cadiz)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 7 2019 19:57:44
 
NorCalluthier

 

Posts: 120
Joined: Apr. 16 2016
 

RE: Flamenco guitar pricing (in reply to flyeogh

Hello Nigel,

I'm an anglophile, but I don't know the word "punter". I assume that you mean buyer?

I used to take orders, but finally decided that for me there were too many things wrong with that. Mostly I wanted the buyer to be sure of what he was getting. Now I build guitars to please myself, and then go looking for customers that like what I do.

I do invite anyone that's interested to come up for a shop tour, and to play any instruments that I have in stock. That has worked well, but interest in flamencos at my new classical price of $5500 has been minimal.

Cheers,

Brian
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 7 2019 20:31:36
 
constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1344
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Flamenco guitar pricing (in reply to NorCalluthier

Brian--

As several people have said to me, going cheaper may not even be in the right direction. It could very well be that going more expensive, to some level, might be more helpful.

I recently received a call from a potential customer who told me how beautiful my flamenco guitars look. I said thank you but I focus more on sound quality and playability. He said yeah but you know we've got to have that visual beauty; that's why we're willing to pay $6000 for a flamenco guitar. Then he told me he wanted a blanca dyed a certain color before the finish goes on, and said that the budget is $4000. I explained that $4000 is the base price for my blancas and anything extra would cost more. Didn't hear back from him. Which just goes to show...that everyone is crazy, I guess.

_____________________________

Ethan Deutsch
www.edluthier.com
www.facebook.com/ethandeutschguitars
www.youtube.com/marioamayaflamenco
I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 7 2019 21:42:29
 
NorCalluthier

 

Posts: 120
Joined: Apr. 16 2016
 

RE: Flamenco guitar pricing (in reply to flyeogh

Hello Ethan,

When I took orders years ago I had people want to have me do all sorts of visual stuff, make the sides from solid stock---I laminate sides---and worst of all, feel free to call me once a week to see how their guitar was coming along---subtext, hurry up.

I'm inherently a slow, meticulous worker, and don't work well under time pressure. So just making guitars and then finding customers has been the obvious way for me to go.

My hero Jeff Elliot enjoys working with his clients to tailor make the instrument to their taste. I believe Bob Ruck told me something similar. I think that is most admirable, but it doesn't work for me.

One of my classical guitar customers is a marketing consultant, and he told me to raise my price to $14,000, and that I wouldn't have any price complaints, and no difficulty selling. He might even be right, but I don't have the courage to find out (;->)...

Cheers,

Brian
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 7 2019 22:51:31
 
flyeogh

Posts: 471
Joined: Oct. 13 2004
 

RE: Flamenco guitar pricing (in reply to NorCalluthier

quote:

I'm an anglophile, but I don't know the word "punter". I assume that you mean buyer?


No. The word punter (very common in 18th century, but then was less used until the current increase in usage in the last 50 years) infers a risk element, a bet.

And if one chooses a luthier and asks for a guitar to be made one is gambling on the result to some degree. Gambling that the reputation and skills of the luthier will result in a product that meets desires (which may not be the product the buyer originally had in mind). So why does the punter take the risk? For the feeling of uniqueness, ownership and involvement. All very powerful drivers).

On the potential customer asking for bizarre features that surely is just down to salesmanship. The buyer is always right but is steered by the seller. (i can think of using terms that work for me like "tradition, authentic, high sell-on value.

I remember a buyer of a luthier's guitar insisting that he wanted clear varnish so that the guitar was the colour of the wood. The luthier advised against. The result disappointed both customer and seller. The buyer regretted it as the guitar looked unfinished. If it goes against your gut feeling as a supplier then turn it down.

When I ordered my guitar from Anders I only had his reputation and his history on forums to go by. I had no issue with price for what would most likely be a life time one-off purchase of a handmade flamenco guitar (little did I know )

I had a colour in mind. Anders steered me to a more sensible option. I decided on upgraded purfling and upgraded tuners (added 10% to cost). The balance for me was right. I felt it was my unique guitar, I had some input, but for sure Anders was 99% in control.

When I say being involved we had a 2 or 3 email interactions prior to paying a deposit. Anders sent me 2 emails with fotos throughout the process. We then spoke to arrange the hand-to-hand pick up (for me very treasured moment). It took 3 months but that was sold as a benefit. You're buying something handmade that you wouldn't want rushed.

I can see that if you want to build your flamenco guitar, and then find a customer, not many are going to succeed (as seen by many posts here). The marketplace is full of options for the customer, is very competitive pricewise, and is location restrictive.

Relating this to my life of IT consultancy and salesmanship we had one very clear understanding. A consultant should not sell themselves. There were several reasons. First if the consultant meets the prospect they are likely to pass on very valuable information free of charge. Secondly a salesman and a consultant are very different in terms of objectives and recompense. I appreciate that that is a difficult concept for a luthier working in isolation to take onboard but it might be worth a thought. In truth the salesman is often the website.

Anyway this is all a customer/prospect view but hope it is food for thought.

_____________________________

nigel (el raton de Watford - now Puerto de Santa Maria, Cadiz)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 8 2019 5:47:04
 
RobJe

 

Posts: 669
Joined: Dec. 16 2006
From: UK

RE: Flamenco guitar pricing (in reply to NorCalluthier

The guitar market is rather strange. Research conducted by Fender showed that 90% of people buying their guitars gave up playing within the first year without making any significant progress. I wonder what the figure is for flamenco guitars. I only have personal experience and anecdotes to go on but I do know quite a few people who have admired flamenco, flamenco guitar playing and/or flamenco guitars enough to make a purchase only to find that they were not motivated enough to put in the considerable effort required to learn to play.

Of course if these non-players didn’t buy guitars it would make selling guitars even harder. I always wondered why there is such a concentration of luthier workshops in the Cuesta de Gomérez in Granada on the pedestrian route for those visiting the Alhambra. Did this develop to catch the passing tourist/impulsive buyer market?

Although not widely acknowledged, I have come across cases where a luthier has been reluctant to sell a really good guitar to someone who can’t play. I also remember a luthier who signed and asked the customer to sign, the inside of the guitar top before construction to demonstrate that even if it turned out to be his best ever guitar he would not be selling it to someone else.

Rob
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 8 2019 15:05:22
 
constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1344
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Flamenco guitar pricing (in reply to flyeogh

quote:

The word punter (very common in 18th century, but then was less used until the current increase in usage in the last 50 years) infers a risk element, a bet.


In the USA we correctly say that someone's words imply something and that we can infer something from someone's words. But I have noticed a British Youtuber (Ancient Architects) I like to listen to frequently use the word infer where I would use imply. Are the meanings reversed in the UK? (I've noticed that we say different from and British say different to.)

_____________________________

Ethan Deutsch
www.edluthier.com
www.facebook.com/ethandeutschguitars
www.youtube.com/marioamayaflamenco
I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 8 2019 15:26:53
 
flyeogh

Posts: 471
Joined: Oct. 13 2004
 

RE: Flamenco guitar pricing (in reply to constructordeguitarras

Ethan thanks for spotting that. Grammatically I was incorrect. I did a little research and while reversing the use of "imply" and "infer" is a common error it remains an error. I can't hide behind the Atlantic divide on this one

I admit my standard of grammar is not as good as I would like. It is something I have tried to improve since I retired and started to give English lessons to the unemployed here in Andalucía. That has certainly made me conscious of my short comings. Up until a year ago I only read Spanish novels. Now I only read English novels

_____________________________

nigel (el raton de Watford - now Puerto de Santa Maria, Cadiz)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 8 2019 16:30:18
 
Echi

 

Posts: 589
Joined: Jan. 11 2013
 

RE: Flamenco guitar pricing (in reply to flyeogh

quote:

I also remember a luthier who signed and asked the customer to sign, the inside of the guitar top before construction to demonstrate that even if it turned out to be his best ever guitar he would not be selling it to someone else.

He would just stick the label at the very end then

For sure there are many people owing a flamenco guitar and using it to play other genres: first names coming to my mind are Leonard Cohen and Al Di Meola.
Btw Flamenco guitars are often better for accompaniment than modern classical.
I think the flamenco guitar is a more authentic instrument in itself than the modern classical guitar.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 9 2019 8:15:38
 
RobJe

 

Posts: 669
Joined: Dec. 16 2006
From: UK

RE: Flamenco guitar pricing (in reply to Echi

quote:

He would just stick the label at the very end then


Signed on the wood!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 9 2019 9:30:08
 
flyeogh

Posts: 471
Joined: Oct. 13 2004
 

RE: Flamenco guitar pricing (in reply to flyeogh

I came across that. Bought a secondhand guitar and inside it said "This guitar belongs to Paco de Lucia". And then he'd signed his name. Pretentious or what!!!!

Anyway, a bit of sandpaper soon got rid of that. I bet this Paco was one of those who gave up once he realised you had to put the hours in

_____________________________

nigel (el raton de Watford - now Puerto de Santa Maria, Cadiz)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 9 2019 10:24:16
 
Echi

 

Posts: 589
Joined: Jan. 11 2013
 

RE: Flamenco guitar pricing (in reply to flyeogh

quote:

I always wondered why there is such a concentration of luthier workshops in the Cuesta de Gomérez in Granada?

Although not widely acknowledged, I have come across cases where a luthier has been reluctant to sell a really good guitar to someone who can’t play.


Gerundino was quite famous for that. There is also to add that he wasn’t prolific (due to his problems) and that part of his output used to be already sold through Paco Pena or Eladio.
Gerundino (in my opinion in the same league of the greatest) is among the few who never did any kind of endorsing. In the last part of his career he wanted to be sure that his guitars would end up in the hands of professionals.

Granada is a touristic place and guitar is associated with Spain: I myself, many years ago, ended up in buying a flamenco guitar in Cuesta de Gomerez when I was having my honeymoon in Granada. At that time I used to play fusion stuff but I couldn’t resist.
I would have bought a Bellido but it was above my budged and bought a good guitar from another guy there. I still have it. Years later I would have bought a Jose Lopez Bellido made in the same year I was in Granada....
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 9 2019 15:29:33
 
RobJe

 

Posts: 669
Joined: Dec. 16 2006
From: UK

RE: Flamenco guitar pricing (in reply to Echi

Looking at the market and considering how/where to sell must be an issue in pricing. I suggest these categories.

FD The flamenco dreamer - in love with flamenco, buys guitar that remains largely unplayed

FB The flamenco beginner – in love with flamenco needs a guitar that will help to improve playing

OGF Other Genre Flamenco – plays guitar wants to try flamenco

OGG Other Genre Guitar – excited by the flamenco guitar

SP Serious player

P Professional

Most categories could be split in two – financially solvent and insolvent

I used to be a serious player when my hands were in good shape. I always tried a guitar before buying it (couldn’t face the possibility of having to return one to its maker). Of the 12 guitars that I remember, I bought 9 directly from makers in Spain, 1 from a shop in the UK and 2 in musical instrument auctions. Each time I was trying to get a better guitar. I got it badly wrong twice (1 shop, 1 maker - both quickly sold). Most of the guitars came from flamenco specialists.

I am aware that there are many good guitar makers that I would never come across with the policy I adopted.

1 former British Prime Minister falls into OGF or OGG!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 11 2019 10:41:26
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 2610
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Flamenco guitar pricing (in reply to flyeogh

quote:

ORIGINAL: flyeogh

Just a thought. Do some luthiers not make enough of the creation experience for the punter?

I loved being involved when my guitar was made in 2005. I'd have paid at least 25% for that.

I visited some luthiers in Spain where you ordered, and 3 months later a guitar would turn up. May as well buy off the top shelf


Every guitar in my closet is luthier made, but I didn‘t have the “creation experience” with any of them. I have only ever bought one guitar without playing it, but it was vouched for by Richard Brune and Brian Cohen. As I expected, within a month of buying it I received offers from Japan for 20% more than I paid for it. It’s not for sale. When I took it out of the case, tuned it up and played an E-major chord, I fell in love.

I’ve sold a few that I bought to play, and gave one to the guitar society (it now belongs to a deserving conservatory student), having decided after a while that there was another I liked better.

There’s only one I have now that I might sell. It’s the first good classical I bought, so there is a vestige of sentimental attachment. Of the luthiers I have known, its very successful maker was one of my favorite people, sadly no longer with us. Every couple of months I get it out and play it. I think, ”This is a really good guitar—-but I just don’t love it.” However, one of my favorite classical pros concertized on an instrument by this maker for years.

Different strokes for different folks.

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 12 2019 6:15:35
 
NorCalluthier

 

Posts: 120
Joined: Apr. 16 2016
 

RE: Flamenco guitar pricing (in reply to flyeogh

Hello Richard,

"Different strokes for different folks. "

Boy, is that true!

I'm very proud of the fact that Daniel Roest---the classical player that plays the guitars on my website---liked my #24 well enough to buy it. And he had been playing the same two guitars for 30 years! But to me, it was a nice guitar with no particular thrill. Of course, I play flamenco, and am listening with "flamenco ears", but even so...

Cheers,

Brian
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 12 2019 16:29:32
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