RE: Flamenco guitar pricing (Full Version)

Foro Flamenco: http://www.foroflamenco.com/
- Discussions: http://www.foroflamenco.com/default.asp?catApp=0
- - Lutherie: http://www.foroflamenco.com/in_forum.asp?forumid=22
- - - RE: Flamenco guitar pricing: http://www.foroflamenco.com/fb.asp?m=317745



Message


flyeogh -> RE: Flamenco guitar pricing (Apr. 7 2019 19:57:44)

quote:

My question is how much can I ever hope to sell my flamenco guitars for.


Just a thought. Do some luthiers not make enough of the creation experience for the punter?

I loved being involved when my guitar was made in 2005. I'd have paid at least 25% for that.

I visited some luthiers in Spain where you ordered, and 3 months later a guitar would turn up. May as well buy off the top shelf [&:]




NorCalluthier -> RE: Flamenco guitar pricing (Apr. 7 2019 20:31:36)

Hello Nigel,

I'm an anglophile, but I don't know the word "punter". I assume that you mean buyer?

I used to take orders, but finally decided that for me there were too many things wrong with that. Mostly I wanted the buyer to be sure of what he was getting. Now I build guitars to please myself, and then go looking for customers that like what I do.

I do invite anyone that's interested to come up for a shop tour, and to play any instruments that I have in stock. That has worked well, but interest in flamencos at my new classical price of $5500 has been minimal.

Cheers,

Brian




constructordeguitarras -> RE: Flamenco guitar pricing (Apr. 7 2019 21:42:29)

Brian--

As several people have said to me, going cheaper may not even be in the right direction. It could very well be that going more expensive, to some level, might be more helpful.

I recently received a call from a potential customer who told me how beautiful my flamenco guitars look. I said thank you but I focus more on sound quality and playability. He said yeah but you know we've got to have that visual beauty; that's why we're willing to pay $6000 for a flamenco guitar. Then he told me he wanted a blanca dyed a certain color before the finish goes on, and said that the budget is $4000. I explained that $4000 is the base price for my blancas and anything extra would cost more. Didn't hear back from him. Which just goes to show...that everyone is crazy, I guess. [:D]




NorCalluthier -> RE: Flamenco guitar pricing (Apr. 7 2019 22:51:31)

Hello Ethan,

When I took orders years ago I had people want to have me do all sorts of visual stuff, make the sides from solid stock---I laminate sides---and worst of all, feel free to call me once a week to see how their guitar was coming along---subtext, hurry up.

I'm inherently a slow, meticulous worker, and don't work well under time pressure. So just making guitars and then finding customers has been the obvious way for me to go.

My hero Jeff Elliot enjoys working with his clients to tailor make the instrument to their taste. I believe Bob Ruck told me something similar. I think that is most admirable, but it doesn't work for me.

One of my classical guitar customers is a marketing consultant, and he told me to raise my price to $14,000, and that I wouldn't have any price complaints, and no difficulty selling. He might even be right, but I don't have the courage to find out (;->)...

Cheers,

Brian




flyeogh -> RE: Flamenco guitar pricing (Apr. 8 2019 5:47:04)

quote:

I'm an anglophile, but I don't know the word "punter". I assume that you mean buyer?


No. The word punter (very common in 18th century, but then was less used until the current increase in usage in the last 50 years) infers a risk element, a bet.

And if one chooses a luthier and asks for a guitar to be made one is gambling on the result to some degree. Gambling that the reputation and skills of the luthier will result in a product that meets desires (which may not be the product the buyer originally had in mind). So why does the punter take the risk? For the feeling of uniqueness, ownership and involvement. All very powerful drivers).

On the potential customer asking for bizarre features that surely is just down to salesmanship. The buyer is always right but is steered by the seller. (i can think of using terms that work for me like "tradition, authentic, high sell-on value.

I remember a buyer of a luthier's guitar insisting that he wanted clear varnish so that the guitar was the colour of the wood. The luthier advised against. The result disappointed both customer and seller. The buyer regretted it as the guitar looked unfinished. If it goes against your gut feeling as a supplier then turn it down.

When I ordered my guitar from Anders I only had his reputation and his history on forums to go by. I had no issue with price for what would most likely be a life time one-off purchase of a handmade flamenco guitar (little did I know [;)])

I had a colour in mind. Anders steered me to a more sensible option. I decided on upgraded purfling and upgraded tuners (added 10% to cost). The balance for me was right. I felt it was my unique guitar, I had some input, but for sure Anders was 99% in control.

When I say being involved we had a 2 or 3 email interactions prior to paying a deposit. Anders sent me 2 emails with fotos throughout the process. We then spoke to arrange the hand-to-hand pick up (for me very treasured moment). It took 3 months but that was sold as a benefit. You're buying something handmade that you wouldn't want rushed.

I can see that if you want to build your flamenco guitar, and then find a customer, not many are going to succeed (as seen by many posts here). The marketplace is full of options for the customer, is very competitive pricewise, and is location restrictive.

Relating this to my life of IT consultancy and salesmanship we had one very clear understanding. A consultant should not sell themselves. There were several reasons. First if the consultant meets the prospect they are likely to pass on very valuable information free of charge. Secondly a salesman and a consultant are very different in terms of objectives and recompense. I appreciate that that is a difficult concept for a luthier working in isolation to take onboard but it might be worth a thought. In truth the salesman is often the website.

Anyway this is all a customer/prospect view but hope it is food for thought.




RobJe -> RE: Flamenco guitar pricing (Apr. 8 2019 15:05:22)

The guitar market is rather strange. Research conducted by Fender showed that 90% of people buying their guitars gave up playing within the first year without making any significant progress. I wonder what the figure is for flamenco guitars. I only have personal experience and anecdotes to go on but I do know quite a few people who have admired flamenco, flamenco guitar playing and/or flamenco guitars enough to make a purchase only to find that they were not motivated enough to put in the considerable effort required to learn to play.

Of course if these non-players didn’t buy guitars it would make selling guitars even harder. I always wondered why there is such a concentration of luthier workshops in the Cuesta de Gomérez in Granada on the pedestrian route for those visiting the Alhambra. Did this develop to catch the passing tourist/impulsive buyer market?

Although not widely acknowledged, I have come across cases where a luthier has been reluctant to sell a really good guitar to someone who can’t play. I also remember a luthier who signed and asked the customer to sign, the inside of the guitar top before construction to demonstrate that even if it turned out to be his best ever guitar he would not be selling it to someone else.

Rob




constructordeguitarras -> RE: Flamenco guitar pricing (Apr. 8 2019 15:26:53)

quote:

The word punter (very common in 18th century, but then was less used until the current increase in usage in the last 50 years) infers a risk element, a bet.


In the USA we correctly say that someone's words imply something and that we can infer something from someone's words. But I have noticed a British Youtuber (Ancient Architects) I like to listen to frequently use the word infer where I would use imply. Are the meanings reversed in the UK? (I've noticed that we say different from and British say different to.)




flyeogh -> RE: Flamenco guitar pricing (Apr. 8 2019 16:30:18)

Ethan thanks for spotting that. Grammatically I was incorrect. I did a little research and while reversing the use of "imply" and "infer" is a common error it remains an error. I can't hide behind the Atlantic divide on this one [:D]

I admit my standard of grammar is not as good as I would like. It is something I have tried to improve since I retired and started to give English lessons to the unemployed here in Andalucía. That has certainly made me conscious of my short comings. Up until a year ago I only read Spanish novels. Now I only read English novels [8|]




Echi -> RE: Flamenco guitar pricing (Apr. 9 2019 8:15:38)

quote:

I also remember a luthier who signed and asked the customer to sign, the inside of the guitar top before construction to demonstrate that even if it turned out to be his best ever guitar he would not be selling it to someone else.

He would just stick the label at the very end then [:D][:D]

For sure there are many people owing a flamenco guitar and using it to play other genres: first names coming to my mind are Leonard Cohen and Al Di Meola.
Btw Flamenco guitars are often better for accompaniment than modern classical.
I think the flamenco guitar is a more authentic instrument in itself than the modern classical guitar.




RobJe -> RE: Flamenco guitar pricing (Apr. 9 2019 9:30:08)

quote:

He would just stick the label at the very end then


Signed on the wood!




flyeogh -> RE: Flamenco guitar pricing (Apr. 9 2019 10:24:16)

I came across that. Bought a secondhand guitar and inside it said "This guitar belongs to Paco de Lucia". And then he'd signed his name. Pretentious or what!!!!

Anyway, a bit of sandpaper soon got rid of that. I bet this Paco was one of those who gave up once he realised you had to put the hours in [;)]




Echi -> RE: Flamenco guitar pricing (Apr. 9 2019 15:29:33)

quote:

I always wondered why there is such a concentration of luthier workshops in the Cuesta de Gomérez in Granada?

Although not widely acknowledged, I have come across cases where a luthier has been reluctant to sell a really good guitar to someone who can’t play.


Gerundino was quite famous for that. There is also to add that he wasn’t prolific (due to his problems) and that part of his output used to be already sold through Paco Pena or Eladio.
Gerundino (in my opinion in the same league of the greatest) is among the few who never did any kind of endorsing. In the last part of his career he wanted to be sure that his guitars would end up in the hands of professionals.

Granada is a touristic place and guitar is associated with Spain: I myself, many years ago, ended up in buying a flamenco guitar in Cuesta de Gomerez when I was having my honeymoon in Granada. At that time I used to play fusion stuff but I couldn’t resist.
I would have bought a Bellido but it was above my budged and bought a good guitar from another guy there. I still have it. Years later I would have bought a Jose Lopez Bellido made in the same year I was in Granada....




RobJe -> RE: Flamenco guitar pricing (Apr. 11 2019 10:41:26)

Looking at the market and considering how/where to sell must be an issue in pricing. I suggest these categories.

FD The flamenco dreamer - in love with flamenco, buys guitar that remains largely unplayed

FB The flamenco beginner – in love with flamenco needs a guitar that will help to improve playing

OGF Other Genre Flamenco – plays guitar wants to try flamenco

OGG Other Genre Guitar – excited by the flamenco guitar

SP Serious player

P Professional

Most categories could be split in two – financially solvent and insolvent

I used to be a serious player when my hands were in good shape. I always tried a guitar before buying it (couldn’t face the possibility of having to return one to its maker). Of the 12 guitars that I remember, I bought 9 directly from makers in Spain, 1 from a shop in the UK and 2 in musical instrument auctions. Each time I was trying to get a better guitar. I got it badly wrong twice (1 shop, 1 maker - both quickly sold). Most of the guitars came from flamenco specialists.

I am aware that there are many good guitar makers that I would never come across with the policy I adopted.

1 former British Prime Minister falls into OGF or OGG!




Richard Jernigan -> RE: Flamenco guitar pricing (Apr. 12 2019 6:15:35)

quote:

ORIGINAL: flyeogh

Just a thought. Do some luthiers not make enough of the creation experience for the punter?

I loved being involved when my guitar was made in 2005. I'd have paid at least 25% for that.

I visited some luthiers in Spain where you ordered, and 3 months later a guitar would turn up. May as well buy off the top shelf [&:]


Every guitar in my closet is luthier made, but I didn‘t have the “creation experience” with any of them. I have only ever bought one guitar without playing it, but it was vouched for by Richard Brune and Brian Cohen. As I expected, within a month of buying it I received offers from Japan for 20% more than I paid for it. It’s not for sale. When I took it out of the case, tuned it up and played an E-major chord, I fell in love.

I’ve sold a few that I bought to play, and gave one to the guitar society (it now belongs to a deserving conservatory student), having decided after a while that there was another I liked better.

There’s only one I have now that I might sell. It’s the first good classical I bought, so there is a vestige of sentimental attachment. Of the luthiers I have known, its very successful maker was one of my favorite people, sadly no longer with us. Every couple of months I get it out and play it. I think, ”This is a really good guitar—-but I just don’t love it.” However, one of my favorite classical pros concertized on an instrument by this maker for years.

Different strokes for different folks.

RNJ




NorCalluthier -> RE: Flamenco guitar pricing (Apr. 12 2019 16:29:32)

Hello Richard,

"Different strokes for different folks. "

Boy, is that true!

I'm very proud of the fact that Daniel Roest---the classical player that plays the guitars on my website---liked my #24 well enough to buy it. And he had been playing the same two guitars for 30 years! But to me, it was a nice guitar with no particular thrill. Of course, I play flamenco, and am listening with "flamenco ears", but even so...

Cheers,

Brian




devilhand -> RE: Flamenco guitar pricing (Jul. 4 2020 14:48:39)

What I noticed in the last few months is there are too many 2nd hand guitars of a certain luthier offered on the market? What's happening there? Any ideas about the reason behind?




flyeogh -> RE: Flamenco guitar pricing (Jul. 4 2020 15:47:27)

quote:

there are too many 2nd hand guitars of a certain luthier offered on the market? What's happening there? Any ideas about the reason behind?


Does it not relate to how many they sold, and if it is the type of guitar you sell on as you improve?

Or are you asking at the £8000+ level?

Here near Jerez you can pick up a Bernal easily. As an onwer of one I hope that is not a reflection on their quality[:-]

ps: Of course the flamenco guitar secondhand market is so small and largely hidden how would any one create statistics?




Tom Blackshear -> RE: Flamenco guitar pricing (Jul. 4 2020 21:03:27)

One thing stirs my curiosity, is how most flamenco guitars change hands over a period of time, where many classical guitars stay with the original buyer.

Some of my flamencos have gone to war and eventually fell into disrepair but I have rarely seen my classical's abused.

Is this characteristic of the type people who play them or is it just the price level that dictates the way an instrument is treated?

I have a tendency to believe it is the price line that pushes the abuse, as when I raised my prices most of the abuse stopped.

And of course, most classical guitarists, who pay good money for their guitars, seem to have a sweeter, more protective disposition about their guitar's upkeep.

But not to delete those unique people who party too much and sit on their guitars.




devilhand -> RE: Flamenco guitar pricing (Jul. 4 2020 22:28:12)

quote:

Does it not relate to how many they sold, and if it is the type of guitar you sell on as you improve?


They're mostly offered in the price range between 2500-4000 € online for example on Ebay. Some of them are in mint condition and barely played etc.

quote:

Or are you asking at the £8000+ level?

These days I'm not searching for a guitar to buy. But definitely in the future.




RobF -> RE: Flamenco guitar pricing (Jul. 5 2020 9:39:37)

quote:

But not to delete those unique people who party too much and sit on their guitars.

[:D]




Ricardo -> RE: Flamenco guitar pricing (Jul. 5 2020 18:01:29)

quote:

2nd hand guitars of a certain luthier


Unknown makers are harder to sell at cost...always a loss unless you are ripping someone off. Guitars with a name you can buy and unload without losing money in a lot of cases, because people are looking for that maker specifically.

By the way “ripping people off” is how the value goes up for certain names, it’s not always a bad thing. I admit I am a horrible sales person.




RobF -> RE: Flamenco guitar pricing (Jul. 6 2020 3:23:04)

quote:

Unknown makers are harder to sell at cost...always a loss unless you are ripping someone off.


Agree with the first half, disagree with the second. Unknown (good) makers are forced to sell their instruments for less than their intrinsic value, while recognized (good) names are able to sell them for more. This trickles down into the resale market and those who buy wisely can gain from it.

I don’t think anyone is ripping anyone off by selling a good guitar for a reasonable price. Maybe some guitarists are hopeless at being able to judge quality or think for themselves when it comes to guitars, but a good guitar by a good maker has value, regardless of whether a particular guitarist has heard of the maker or not. It just might mean that that particular guitarist doesn’t know his ass from a hole in the ground when it comes to guitars and is going to miss out on a fair deal. Alternately, it could be suggested that a person pushing to get something on the cheap by using their own ignorance as leverage is the one trying to rip off people.

But, can’t really argue that brand recognition doesn’t hold a fair amount of value. Like location in real estate, it does come in handy when it’s time to sell. I still disagree with the ripping off point, though.




Page: <<   <   1 [2]

Valid CSS!




Forum Software powered by ASP Playground Advanced Edition 2.0.5
Copyright © 2000 - 2003 ASPPlayground.NET