Foro Flamenco
Posts Since Last Visit | Advanced Search | Home | Register | Login

Today's Posts | Inbox | Profile | Our Rules | Contact Admin | Log Out



Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.
This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvir, Philip John Lee and Craig Eros who went ahead of us too soon.
We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.





RE: Argentine tango guitar teacher in Boston/Cambridge   You are logged in as Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >>Discussions >>General >> Page: <<   <   1 [2]
Login
Message<< Newer Topic  Older Topic >>
 
jg7238

 

Posts: 2854
Joined: May 11 2009
 

RE: Argentine tango guitar teacher i... (in reply to rombsix

quote:

but I have seen nothing in this thread that offers any evidence that flamenco and Argentine Tango have a lot (or anything) in common.

It's in spanish....

http://romanceroanonimo.blogspot.com/2011/12/el-tango-y-el-flamenco.html
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 7 2018 21:06:09
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3220
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Argentine tango guitar teacher i... (in reply to BarkellWH

quote:

ORIGINAL: BarkellWH

I agree with your above-cited observations, Simon. That both the blues and flamenco are often rooted in hardship, oppression, and life's travails does not mean they have anything in common musically. They have little if anything in common musically, just as flamenco has little if anything in common with Argentine Tango. Argentine Tango is a very different musical form with a far different provenance than flamenco. One might as well find commonalities between flamenco and Merle Haggard's country classic "Working Man Blues" because it deals with hardship and life's travails. They don't equate.

That does not mean one cannot create a "flamenco version" of standards from other genres. For example, long ago I once attended a performance by Carlos Montoya in which he played a "flamenco version" of "St. Louis Blues." (He also recorded it on a couple of albums.) It was interesting and clever, but no one would ever equate "St. Louis Bues" with flamenco as a result, or, for that matter, Carlos's version of "St. Louis Blues" with authentic flamenco. Same with "fusion" versions of other genres. That does not make for "commonality."

I am always open to different points of view, but I have seen nothing in this thread that offers any evidence that flamenco and Argentine Tango have a lot (or anything) in common.

Bill


This

http://flamencograna.blogspot.com.es/2015/09/flamenco-tangos-y-tientos_12.html

and the usual histories of Argentine tango agree in attributing Afro-American origins to both the flamenco and Argentine versions. "Afro-American" not in the sense of black citizens of the USA, rather in the sense of descendants of enslaved Africans in Latin America.

The flamenco tango's ancestor is said to have arrived in Spain in the 1840s. Enrique El Mellizo is recognized as the originator of the tango de Cadiz, now most frequently represented by tanguillos. The Sevillana Pastora Pavon, "La Niña de los Peines" recorded a considerable repertoire of tangos. The article cited above remarks on the contrast between the 3- and 12-beat compases of the older flamenco palos, and the 2- or 4-beat compas of tangos.

In Argentina the tango evolved into the even 4-beat pattern so often heard (except in forms like the milonga-tango), while the flamenco syncopation became most accentuated in tientos.

For solo guitar fans here's Ramon Montoya.



There's a flamenco milonga as well, which diverged rhythmically from the American version by the time it came to be recorded.

All the same, the two versions of tango have evolved sufficiently, from whatever common origin they may have, to be called different species, in my opinion. Perhaps as closely related as leopards and cheetas, not so different as fish and fowl.

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 8 2018 1:30:18
 
yourwhathurts69

 

Posts: 96
Joined: Sep. 16 2009
 

RE: Argentine tango guitar teacher i... (in reply to jg7238

quote:

ORIGINAL: jg7238

quote:

I feel that Argentine tango music and flamenco music have a lot of things in common.


Yes! I have to agree.


I have to disagree, unless you mean both styles have improvisation and mainly use a nylon string guitar (if there even is a guitar).

I like both tango and flamenco, but I don't see much overlap in the music or technique. In fact, my teacher in Argentina preferred to use a guitar pick while playing tango, and he was classically trained!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 8 2018 3:49:09
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 3309
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Argentine tango guitar teacher i... (in reply to Richard Jernigan

quote:

and the usual histories of Argentine tango agree in attributing Afro-American origins to both the flamenco and Argentine versions. "Afro-American" not in the sense of black citizens of the USA, rather in the sense of descendants of enslaved Africans in Latin America.


True, and there have always been Latin American influences on flamenco. Just note the "cantes de ida y vuelta." Nevertheless, that is a far cry from claiming that Argentine Tango (as we have known it since the turn of the last century) and flamenco "have a lot in common." They are very different musical forms, each using very different instruments, and each with a very different provenance. Nevertheless, I am still open to persuasion if someone could demonstrate what they have in common today.

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 8 2018 14:59:51
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 3309
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Argentine tango guitar teacher i... (in reply to Richard Jernigan

quote:

Perhaps as closely related as leopards and cheetas, not so different as fish and fowl.


It is probably dangerous (and certainly inexact!) to apply animal taxonomy to describe different genres of music, but I would agree that to compare Argentine Tango and flamenco to "fish and fowl" is a bridge too far. It would be more accurate to compare Argentine Tango to, say, Javanese Gamelan (with the Sinden singing in Javanese) with fish and fowl, i.e., there is no comparison.

Nevertheless, in my opinion, Argentine Tango and flamenco are not as closely related as leopards and cheetahs. As I have noted previously, they are two very different genres in just about every way, not to the extent of Tango and Gamelan, but still very different. Perhaps a better comparison would be to leopards and antelopes.

I think this exhausts my thoughts on the subject.

Cheers,

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 8 2018 19:33:41
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3220
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Argentine tango guitar teacher i... (in reply to BarkellWH

quote:

ORIGINAL: BarkellWH

It is probably dangerous (and certainly inexact!) to apply animal taxonomy to describe different genres of music...<snip>

Nevertheless, in my opinion, Argentine Tango and flamenco are not as closely related as leopards and cheetahs. <snip>Perhaps a better comparison would be to leopards and antelopes.

Cheers,

Bill


Until the subject came up here I had thought it was mere coincidence that both flamenco tangos and Argentine tango have the same name. The two seemed musically quite distinct to me. Paco Peña assures us there is no connection, and his opinion is certainly due respect.

But Googling a bit I came across the fact that historians say they have a common ancestor, the Cuban habanera.

The feasibility of sequencing entire genomes has revolutionized biological taxonomy, but for music we are still limited to the tools of historical research.

The Wikipedia article on Tango begins:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_tango

"The dance derives from the Cuban habanera, the Argentine milonga and candombe, and is said to contain elements from the African community in Buenos Aires, influenced both by ancient African rhythms and the music from Europe."

"Even though the present forms developed in Argentina and Uruguay from the mid 19th century, [6] there are earlier written records of Tango dances in Cuba and Spain,[7][8] while there is a flamenco Tangos dance that may share a common ancestor in a minuet-style European dance.[5] All sources stress the influence of the African communities and their rhythms, while the instruments and techniques brought in by European immigrants played a major role in its final definition, relating it to the Salon music styles to which Tango would contribute back at a later stage, when it became fashionable in early 20th century Paris."

The article "Tangos" on Faustino Nuñez's excellent site Flamencopolis contains the following:

http://www.flamencopolis.com/archives/324

"El patrón de tango o habanera, se dice que procede de las contradanzas que llegaron a América durante el siglo XVIII. Se ha dicho que fueron los franceses huídos de Haití los que llevaron a Cuba el patrón de tango, nosotros pensamos más bien que fueron los esclavos de Santiago de Cuba quienes comenzaron a desarrollar el patrón, llevándolo a La Habana, tomando forma comenzado el siglo XIX, y desde allí se extendió como la pólvora por todo Occidente. Primero llega a la capital americana de la metrópoli española, Cádiz, como tango americano, y comenzándose a insertar como uno de los números centrales en las zarzuelas."

Nuñez continues with a detailed account of the adaptation of the tango americano to the flamenco tangos.

You only have to go back to the late 19th-early 20th century to find a common ancestor of Argentine and flamenco tango/tangos/tanguillos, namely the Cuban habanera of the late 19th century. Nuñez points out that in Spain the piece was called "habanera" if the subject was romantic, "tango" if comic.

Traces of common ancestry remain in flamenco tangos:

Binary compas instead of 12-beat. When cantiñas entered flamenco it morphed to a 12-beat compas, while retaining its diatonic tonality.

Diatonic major key of tanguillos instead of the andaluz scale. These days however, it seems more common to end tientos (a slow tangos) with an up-tempo tango por medio, rather than the older style of ending with tanguillos in A-major, as Montoya does in the solo guitar example above, following the practice of contemporary singers like Pastora Pavon "La Niña de los Peines".

Culture evolves far more rapidly than genomes do, so it is certainly a matter of opinion how closely related the two genres may still be, due to sharing a recent common ancestor.

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 10 2018 17:32:27
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: Argentine tango guitar teacher i... (in reply to jg7238

Advantage engineer.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 11 2018 6:01:42
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 3309
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Argentine tango guitar teacher i... (in reply to Richard Jernigan

quote:

But Googling a bit I came across the fact that historians say they have a common ancestor, the Cuban habanera.


It is entirely possible that Argentine Tango and flamenco tangos (flamenco tangos, not flamenco as a broad musical genre) have a common ancestor in the Cuban Habanera. As I noted above, flamenco has been influenced by Latin American elements ("Ida y Vuelta") brought back to Spain by the Spanish colonists. But that is very different than stating that flamenco (as a broad musical genre) and Argentine Tango "have a lot in common." They do not, and here I am with Paco Pena. I'm sure even Paco Pena would acknowledge certain Latin American "influences" on flamenco, but flamenco is still a distinct genre as opposed to Argentine Tango, with little if anything in common between the two.

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 11 2018 16:55:13
 
Piwin

Posts: 3394
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: Argentine tango guitar teacher i... (in reply to BarkellWH

I think you're reading too much into that comment.
In the sentence right before the one you quote, he said that he'd rather decipher the sheet music with a flamenco teacher than with a classical teacher, which suggests that the commonalities he's talking about aren't in the sheet music per se but rather in the approach to the music. Jg's comment (and example) I think is on point. I may not quantify those similarities the same way Ramzi would, but if all I had to choose from to learn tango was a classical or a flamenco teacher, I'd definitely go with the flamenco teacher.

_____________________________

"Anything you do can be fixed. What you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page. What you cannot fix is that pristine, unsullied whiteness of a screen or a page with nothing on it—because there’s nothing there to fix."
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 11 2018 18:47:35
 
Escribano

Posts: 6322
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Argentine tango guitar teacher i... (in reply to Piwin

Or I would try this guy



_____________________________

Foro Flamenco founder and Admin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 11 2018 19:09:14
 
Piwin

Posts: 3394
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: Argentine tango guitar teacher i... (in reply to Escribano



_____________________________

"Anything you do can be fixed. What you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page. What you cannot fix is that pristine, unsullied whiteness of a screen or a page with nothing on it—because there’s nothing there to fix."
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 11 2018 19:52:33
 
jimand

 

Posts: 45
Joined: Mar. 27 2010
 

RE: Argentine tango guitar teacher i... (in reply to rombsix

If online Skype lessons is an option, I recommend Guillermo Garcia in SF.

http://www.guillegotan.com/
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 11 2018 21:51:42
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3220
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Argentine tango guitar teacher i... (in reply to BarkellWH

quote:

ORIGINAL: BarkellWH

As I noted above, flamenco has been influenced by Latin American elements ("Ida y Vuelta") brought back to Spain by the Spanish colonists. But that is very different than stating that flamenco (as a broad musical genre) and Argentine Tango "have a lot in common." They do not, and here I am with Paco Pena. I'm sure even Paco Pena would acknowledge certain Latin American "influences" on flamenco, but flamenco is still a distinct genre as opposed to Argentine Tango, with little if anything in common between the two.

Bill


I should make it clear that I don't debate your position.

What has prompted my posts has been my discovery that Argentine and flamenco tangos are in fact fairly closely related, while I had previously accepted what I had read and been told, that there was effectively no connection between them.

Better advice would have been, "They share a common heritage, but don't confuse them, because by now they are quite different."

The cultures of flamenco and (as far as I know) urban Argentine tango since the 1920s, always seemed quite different to me, and still do.

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 12 2018 0:11:19
 
rombsix

Posts: 7610
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: Argentine tango guitar teacher i... (in reply to Escribano

quote:

Or I would try this guy




_____________________________

Ramzi

http://www.youtube.com/rombsix
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 12 2018 17:01:27
 
mark74

Posts: 690
Joined: Jan. 26 2011
 

RE: Argentine tango guitar teacher i... (in reply to jg7238

You know flamenco tangos and Argentine tango always sounded totally different to me, but for whatever reason the farruca reminds me a bit of Argentine tangos
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 26 2018 3:31:44
 
Piwin

Posts: 3394
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: Argentine tango guitar teacher i... (in reply to rombsix

Dunno if you're still interested in this Ramzi, but 3 rather long videos from the guy Ricardo mentioned (Pino Enriquez) have since been put on youtube:







_____________________________

"Anything you do can be fixed. What you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page. What you cannot fix is that pristine, unsullied whiteness of a screen or a page with nothing on it—because there’s nothing there to fix."
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 22 2020 22:50:47
 
rombsix

Posts: 7610
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: Argentine tango guitar teacher i... (in reply to Piwin

quote:

Dunno if you're still interested in this Ramzi, but 3 rather long videos from the guy Ricardo mentioned (Pino Enriquez) have since been put on youtube:


Thanks!

_____________________________

Ramzi

http://www.youtube.com/rombsix
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 24 2020 5:14:25
Page:   <<   <   1 [2]
All Forums >>Discussions >>General >> Page: <<   <   1 [2]
Jump to:

New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software powered by ASP Playground Advanced Edition 2.0.5
Copyright © 2000 - 2003 ASPPlayground.NET

0.046875 secs.