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RE: Forecast: Flamenco is dying out. Outlook and suggestion to recover!   You are logged in as Guest
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Morante

 

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RE: Forecast: Flamenco is dying out.... (in reply to Leñador

quote:

Morante, an honest question if I may. Do you think there are now more or fewer GOOD flamenco artists in the world than there were in 1975?


I am no guru . My definition of a good flamenco artist is one who knows all of the palos, knows how to sing them and favours cante grande. This kind of artist is disappearing. When I settled in Cádiz 20 years ago, a juerga was with a real cantaor, who might sing polo instead of soleá or marianas instead of tangos.

José Millán could sing bulerías de Cádiz for half an hour without repeating a letra. Nowadays a juerga would be with people who have little compas and don´t even know the basic letras.

More young people opt for flamenquito or pop al compás de tangos. All is not lost: really good young cantaores still exist: for example Ezequiel Benitez, José Valencia. Samuel Serrano seemed to be a great promise at 14 years old when Cepero was backing him, but he does not seem to be fulfilling this promise at the moment. I see him a as a bit of a gritón.

All of this is very subjective so don´t take it too seriously
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 6 2017 11:00:47
 
estebanana

 

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RE: Forecast: Flamenco is dying out.... (in reply to Doitsujin

quote:

What is the value of a product if there is no demand for it on the market? Answer: No value

So you need a measure for the demand.


Art is not a product, so you have to reinvent your mind.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 6 2017 11:54:50
 
Doitsujin

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RE: Forecast: Flamenco is dying out.... (in reply to estebanana

quote:

Art is not a product, so you have to reinvent your mind.


Same principles apply. Art is a product.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 6 2017 13:07:46
 
estebanana

 

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RE: Forecast: Flamenco is dying out.... (in reply to Morante

Art is not a product. It's a process. Learn.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 7 2017 3:27:30
 
Doitsujin

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RE: Forecast: Flamenco is dying out.... (in reply to Morante

Read and learn son.

Art is both and thats why same principles apply.

As soon as you use anything to do business, it becomes a product.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 7 2017 6:35:09

Piwin

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RE: Forecast: Flamenco is dying out.... (in reply to Doitsujin

quote:

As soon as you use anything to do business, it becomes a product.


Nope. Fill in the blank: in the 20th centuries, most Western economies gradually shifted towards becoming ....-based economies."
Hint: it starts with an "s". Anyways, just nitpicking, but there are things you can use to do business that aren't products.

Dildos are products. In Sting's bedroom they become art.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 7 2017 7:20:54
 
Doitsujin

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RE: Forecast: Flamenco is dying out.... (in reply to Morante

That was a good one
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 7 2017 7:56:36
 
gerundino63

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From: The Netherlands

RE: Forecast: Flamenco is dying out.... (in reply to Doitsujin

Art you do or you make to enjoy the proces as Stepfen says. So it is not a product. As soon as you sell it, it becomes a product.
A product, you only make to sell.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 7 2017 8:03:55
 
Doitsujin

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RE: Forecast: Flamenco is dying out.... (in reply to Morante

Yes, thats what i wrote.

Hows going with the fight against flat earthers?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 7 2017 9:43:39

Piwin

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RE: Forecast: Flamenco is dying out.... (in reply to Doitsujin

Speaking of flat earth, I got a good laugh out of this. It's the real reason dinosaurs went extinct



Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (1)

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 7 2017 9:58:26
 
Doitsujin

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RE: Forecast: Flamenco is dying out.... (in reply to Morante

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 7 2017 10:45:37
 
estebanana

 

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RE: Forecast: Flamenco is dying out.... (in reply to Morante

Art is process. The marketplace is the marketplace, is the marketplace.

The mind is a muscle, get thee to a gym.

_____________

Eratosthenes is my hero.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 8 2017 1:35:21
 
Doitsujin

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RE: Forecast: Flamenco is dying out.... (in reply to estebanana

quote:

The marketplace is the marketplace, is the marketplace.


Thanks for clarifying that. I like your humor. So lets move on then.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 8 2017 2:43:17

Piwin

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RE: Forecast: Flamenco is dying out.... (in reply to estebanana

quote:

Eratosthenes is my hero.


He's probably the last mathematician I could still understand. I'm about 2000 years behind the current state of mathematical knowledge. I'm guessing they don't use the sieve anymore to determine prime numbers?
The only real trickle down effect out there is not rich to poor or job creator to worker, it's smart people to cavemen like me.

Oh and since @Morante mentioned Ezequiel Benitez. Here's a vid from not long ago, accompanied by Paco javier jimeno, probably one of my favorite accompanist these days.


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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 8 2017 6:10:25
 
estebanana

 

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RE: Forecast: Flamenco is dying out.... (in reply to Morante

I don't think the definition of art is something to gloss over if you want to discuss the waining of an art form. Say what you like abut art and marketplace, it's very complicated.

Art is a practice of culture, a discipline that can be formal, or a part of a regional tradition, many things can be art or art process. Art is essentially not a commodity or product even after it enters a market. For example a flamenco dancer practices a performative art, he or she is a cultural conduit, a holder of community tradation and practice. And maker of a art form and person who asses the art form to a generational line of students who in turn keeps it alive. A poet or a painter does much the same thing, or a composer, they all practice a discipilne and are stewards of a cultural heritage. All of them are makers, whether they
make a new form and heritage or they make an old form and pass it on.

The marketplace may or may not be a place where the artist enters to make profit from the art process or work product. What the buyer of art is doing is patronizing a culture and supporting it so that it can 'can continue to exist for the betterment and cultural continuity of humanity. In return for enabling an artist or group of artists to continue to be a part of culture and hold traditions and create new forms the buyer and supporter of art gets a 'work-product', a residue or proof that work was done.

Some cultural work-products enter the market in the form of a ticket to a performance, which is the work product, and others, mainly objects, may enter a market and become commodified, but as such the work product never really loses its primary function as a 'proof' that a culture exists and is being supported by an understand in member of the culture to ensure the discipline continues for good of society and that particular culture the benefactor wishes to be involved with.

It's worth revisiting over and over, for to claim that art is created and is separate from its origins as a cultural practice once it enters a market is to really not understand the depth of what art is capable of. To view art as a binary problem; Art is culture until it reaches a marketplace- is an incorrect and overly simplified concept. The relationship of art to markets is extremely complex in what it means as a culture practice, and its possible absorbsion into a world that commodfies that work product.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 8 2017 10:03:43
 
Doitsujin

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RE: Forecast: Flamenco is dying out.... (in reply to Morante

Thanks for the detailed discussion. Very interesting read.

So and i just came accross the following data and share it with you guys as it is relevant to this thread.

Edit: i think you are not ready for this and will up it when you are.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 9 2017 15:04:06
 
El Burro Flamencuro

 

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RE: Forecast: Flamenco is dying out.... (in reply to Morante

This reply is probably going to get a lot of flame....but this is my opinion as negative as it sounds....i think that the guitar players of today need to get back to their roots. Paco made popular to mix flamenco and jazz.....but he stayed close to his roots when he did that. This new jazz stuff sounds like jazz and not flamenco. they just can't pull it off the way he did.

rid yourself of the jazz....get back to the roots.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 10 2017 2:59:18
 
estebanana

 

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RE: Forecast: Flamenco is dying out.... (in reply to Doitsujin

I've been in the arts industry all my life, it's typical of non artists to denigrate the arts and try to frame the arts as something that it is not . It's like telling a doctor or a mechanic that you know more about it than they do.

I've worked in all sides of the arts, curator, exhibit installer, fabricator of exhibit infrastructure and design, worked in galleries, sales, have worked with conservators and museum directors, and I also have had a studio practice making art and guitars since 1978, (were you born yet?) and have a degree in art history and two studio degrees.

But you know more than I do-
I've also played for more and heavy weight dancers than you, and have been deep in flamenco circles of the states and have hung out pretty heavy when I was in Spain.

But you know more because you have charts.

_---------------

El Burro, I would agree. There's too much jazz influence in flamenco for my own taste, but it's not a popular stance. The good thing is if a guitar player elects to go and play in older ways and does it well there is usually acceptance and admiration from the best players. However I have heard a few world class Spanish players diss some of the retro style players. But generally those who pull off older styles with aire and conviction are held up as good flamencos. To me anyway.


Maybe flamenco is ready to reinvent itself? In big arcs of historical overview in art forms, they go through cycles. Old ideas cycle back into favor. Or a form becomes decadent and reinvents itself. Mairena's movement was about reinventing older forms of cante in part, that is possible again, although now it means going to recordings and not digging up the Juan Talega's. The Talegas and Bastian Bacan's etc. are all are all gone. That is unless one is from a family that preserved a line of cante. But this is a well worn conversation.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 10 2017 4:07:23
 
ViejoAmargo

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RE: Forecast: Flamenco is dying out.... (in reply to Doitsujin

quote:

ORIGINAL: Doitsujin

Graph 1; Alarming decrease of popularity of flamenco throughout time. The trend seems to stabilize at a level of "nobody gives a ****".

Graph 2; Flamenco guitar was always and is much more popular than singing. Cmon... it doesnt need a genius to tell that cante is only a thing for special ppl..



It's absurd to estimate the popularity of flamenco by looking at how many people look up the word "flamenco" in google. Do you (or any one here interested in flamenco) go around typing "flamenco"in google? That would be quite stupid. People who are really interested in flamenco type specific, rather obscure terms they're looking information on. I would never google "flamenco", but I may google something more specific, say, "Niño Miguel", "Serranito", "Museo de la guitarra Sevilla", etc.

The only logical conclusion from the decrease in people looking for "flamenco" in google is that nowadays there are less ignorant people, who were so clueless about flamenco that they had to actually google it... Way more people know what flamenco is now, compared with 2004, thus less people need to google it to find out.

Same with cante. If I'm interested in cante, I won't go randomly googling "flamenco cante", but I'd google something more specific, like a particular palo, or the one cantaor or cantaora who got me interested in cante in the first place.

Your market research skills leave a lot to be desired. Lines on a chart mean nothing if you don't understand what exactly is being plotted.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 10 2017 4:39:14
 
estebanana

 

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RE: Forecast: Flamenco is dying out.... (in reply to ViejoAmargo

quote:

It's absurd to estimate the popularity of flamenco by looking at how many people look up the word "flamenco" in google. Do you (or any one here interested in flamenco) go around typing "flamenco"in google? That would be quite stupid. People who are really interested in flamenco type specific, rather obscure terms they're looking information on. I would never google "flamenco", but I may google something more specific, say, "Niño Miguel", "Serranito", "Museo de la guitarra Sevilla", etc.

The only logical conclusion from the decrease in people looking for "flamenco" in google is that nowadays there are less ignorant people, who were so clueless about flamenco that they had to actually google it... Way more people know what flamenco is now, compared with 2004, thus less people need to google it to find out.

Same with cante. If I'm interested in cante, I won't go randomly googling "flamenco cante", but I'd google something more specific, like a particular palo, or the one cantaor or cantaora who got me interested in cante in the first place.

Your market research skills leave a lot to be desired. Lines on a chart mean nothing if you don't understand what exactly is being plotted.


Great post- You win the coveted Gilded Dildo Award!

Just kidding,but great post.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 10 2017 5:01:56
 
ViejoAmargo

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RE: Forecast: Flamenco is dying out.... (in reply to estebanana

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

Great post- You win the coveted Gilded Dildo Award!



LOL
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 10 2017 5:28:44

Piwin

Posts: 2194
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RE: Forecast: Flamenco is dying out.... (in reply to El Burro Flamencuro

I don't think that opinion is all that controversial at this point. The only problem between the traditional/contemporary flamenco divide is not the opinions per se, it's just how some people treat others.
Regardless of my own opinion on the matter, I would say this: I'm not sure that going back to a more traditional form of toque would make flamenco any more popular. As estebanana said, people who uphold a more traditional style of playing are usually regarded pretty well, but that's within flamenco circles. It's almost irrelevant for the outside listener who's not already very familiar with flamenco. The other thing is that flamenco is, as any artform, a living thing that evolves with the people who make it. And somehow flamenco has to appeal to the younger generation if is to survive. And the kids just aren't muleros anymore. There's a point where singing about those things will no longer be a recalling of one's own experiences, but it will be just singing an old rigid artform. For all intents and purposes it would be a theatrical performance where the kids will just have to imagine what was supposed to be felt with such letras instead of actually feeling it directly. And to a lesser extent I think the same thing would happen with flamenco guitar.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 10 2017 7:31:41
 
estebanana

 

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RE: Forecast: Flamenco is dying out.... (in reply to Morante

On that note, in the oud scene it's funny because the Md eastern kids who inherit this tradition are wowed by Rap music and think the traditional oud stuff is grampas music. A lot of enthusiasm for older oud music is from Westerners- Flamenco might end up the same way, except for a few Gitano families that are straight ahead. But how any of those are there?

The world outside Spain might be the repository. Spend a few months in Oakland and see how strong the culture is. SF -Oakland is a serious flamenco center now, I mean for a place outside Spain. The Bay Area sustains three pro dance groups, more or less, and has it's own flamenco festival bringing top Spanish artists every year now for ten years. The season is about three or for months long and well attended.

Bay Area flamencos and the students are bichos, you just cannot kill these people.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 10 2017 8:31:27
 
Doitsujin

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RE: Forecast: Flamenco is dying out.... (in reply to estebanana

quote:

Great post- You win the coveted Gilded Dildo Award!

Just kidding,but great post.


i have to kindly disagree. He is missing the point. The topic he is analyzing so seriously is a parody and not serious at all.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 10 2017 8:37:44

Piwin

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RE: Forecast: Flamenco is dying out.... (in reply to estebanana

@estebanana
what is the trend in Japan? I keep hearing that it has become a major hub for flamenco now. Do they tend to favor the traditional over more contemporary stuff?

@Doitsujin
what, you mean you weren't seriously saying that flamenco is going to die because Google-users look up black dildos more?!!

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 10 2017 9:25:55
 
Doitsujin

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RE: Forecast: Flamenco is dying out.... (in reply to Morante

@Piwin hahaha ... eh... nah..

In general I think this data isnt that wrong, even though it was meant as joke.

Even though flamenco fans who know names of singers and look for specific CDs (mp3s..whatever) would buy more flamenco stuff in their life and they would not put flamenco cante in google to discover their fav artists... their purchasing capacity might be much lower in total in comparison to all the rest of the world. All lets say normal ppl who dont know more than maybe Ottmar Liebert or the Gipsy Kings will put flamenco guitar music in google to discover any kind of nice, easy listening flamenco music. The majority will not recognize the difference between Antonio Rey and the title track of Desperado or Miguel Poveda and Chevy Chase in Three Amigos. Thus, the data shown on the first page of this thread could be meaningful as it shows world wide trends and not a close up view of minorities. First thing people do when they are interested in something nowadays is, punching it into google, getting more information. The black dildo thing was just to reveal critical thinkers within our ranks.

Im waiting for the first guy who will tell me that Antonio Banderas is not flamenco.. Actually, interesting thought. Whats the definition of flamenco, if there is any that includes nowadays flamenco. It seems to reinvent itself quite quickly which is why it will be hard to define sharp borderlines. Any rules regarding compas and harmony are quite flexible... I just remember when I found the 1/4 compas fragment in la tumbona of Paco de Lucia.. and everybody was saying...ah thats wanted and fine. However,..out of compas :P

Reference: Desperado 1995


Reference: Chevy Chase at al., 1986
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 10 2017 16:20:21

Piwin

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RE: Forecast: Flamenco is dying out.... (in reply to Doitsujin

lool. That Chevy Chase clip is priceless. I'd completely forgotten about that. My reaction was pretty much the same as that old lady's.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 10 2017 16:58:33
 
estebanana

 

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RE: Forecast: Flamenco is dying out.... (in reply to Piwin

quote:

@estebanana
what is the trend in Japan? I keep hearing that it has become a major hub for flamenco now. Do they tend to favor the traditional over more contemporary stuff?


Both. Just lie everywhere else, there are moderns and ancients.

I think Viejo Amargo's post hit it out of the park. Flamenco is more well known now than 20 years ago, and the depth to which to which the average person is going is not that deep, but there are more of them going farther than understanding the Gypsy Kings than ever before.

For example Agujetas came to CA 2010 the venues he played in all sold out for shows of cante solo-without a dance show to go along with with the singing. Just Agujetas and Manuel Valencia, sold out venues. The audiences were mixed older folks and young folks men and women, dance students, guitar students and just general folks.

It work so well he returned in 2012, granted he was Agujetas, but the people finding the promo material were no searching on 'Flamenco' they were learning about it via a private mailing list of the Bay Area Flamenco Festival, or some other way, from radio station promotions and the theaters calendars, etc.

Agujetas had alsoo come to CA and the US in the 1980's and 70's-

The premise of an internet search to determine flamenco popularity is absurd. People who advertise flamenco shows advertise in ways that expose the information to true music patrons to like special kinds of music, people who are not flamenco specialists, but folks who are music seekers that know which venues present unusual or specialty music. The flamenco people have a net work and mailing lists to get information, the music loving listener knows the Gypsy Kings play stadiums and big venues and smaller venues support various kinds of flamenco,

The general public that goes to 'flamenco night' at a restaurant might not know too much, but those venues serve as gateways to deeper listening and exposure. Another reason that flamenco popularity is not represented on an English Google search is because in most area outside Spain flamenco is one of the art forms that people from Latin countries gravitate towards as a greater Spanish speaking community. There is inherent interest in flamenco in pan Hispanic-Latin world, and the way flamenco is known and understood is through popular performers, but also through deeper cultural connection that is linked to Spain and a love of arts that are particular to the Spanish speaking diaspora. So there's always that.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 10 2017 21:11:38
 
pink

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RE: Forecast: Flamenco is dying out.... (in reply to estebanana

Having typed "flamenco dildo"into Google as a specific search, here's what it offered me.......

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/1k4OvcaiIDA/maxresdefault.jpg

Best

pink

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 10 2017 21:49:27
 
pink

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RE: Forecast: Flamenco is dying out.... (in reply to estebanana

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

quote:



Great post- You win the coveted Gilded Dildo Award!

Just kidding,but great post.



And Gilded dildo.......


http://www.uberkinky.co.uk/media/catalog/product/cache/2/image/650x/3b8bfa6ade4a2b5822d869832489a567/8/4/84268.jpg


Best

pink

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 10 2017 22:16:44
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