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XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005
 

RE: Question for everyone (in reply to Florian

Offtopic, but just wanted to say its nice to see someone playing both classical and flamenco. There should be more people like that, everybody benfits from that fact imo.

Lionel, I dont know if every former e-guitarist would have no LH problems on flamenco. Besides one year of playing is not very much.
LH thumb should be relaxed. No pressure, or almost. Try to lift it and play, as excersize.
Where your thumbs land depends on your feelings where it would do the best support for your LH fingers.

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Фламенко
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 28 2005 23:32:09
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 29 2005 4:28:13
 
duende

Posts: 3051
Joined: Dec. 15 2003
From: Sweden

RE: Question for everyone (in reply to Guest

I don´t think "people" say you should use your forarm to pull a 100% I use maybe
5% maybe to "pull" if it´s a barre like F in 1st possition and i have to play it for a long time. The advice to use "gravity" to pull is from the book "pumping nylon"

_____________________________

This is hard stuff!
Don't give up...
And don't make it a race.
Enjoy the ray of sunshine that comes with every new step in knowledge.

RON
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 29 2005 6:51:49
 
XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005
 

RE: Question for everyone (in reply to XXX

My former teacher told me also that gravity thing, not to really pull, just a little, but to let the gravity do the main work. IMO that is a good advice for the "mind" part of the playing and for the selfconfidence of a student, in other words placebo, but I dont think that is a true theory at least its speculative.

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Фламенко
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 29 2005 7:50:51
 
Skai

 

Posts: 317
Joined: Sep. 12 2004
 

RE: Question for everyone (in reply to XXX

quote:


Without spending two hours minimum of concentrated work, you almost surely won't progress to a professional level.


Now that's 'encouraging'!!

But it's precisely such comments and advice everyone had put in that spurs me to my max again. I get tired of high intensity practice after a few weeks, and yes, I get tired of my resolution to jog at least 3 times a week after only about 4 sessions max.

Hope this will bring me back to my full speed again. While time may not permit much practice, I do hope my effort to use whatever time I have will pay off. But then again, max intensity refers to 2 hours a day for me as time simply doesn't allow any more on weekdays.

Thanks to every single one who posted, everyone has answered and motivated me.

Cheston

_____________________________

Try some Enrique Iglesias for some great cante.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 29 2005 13:10:54
 
Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3527
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Question for everyone (in reply to Skai

Skai,
check this out, it's pretty good.


Climb Every Mountain http://www.guitarprinciples.com/Newsletter/Titles.html (Jamey Andreas)

The longer I teach, the more I am impressed with one unassailable fact: most of what becoming good or great on the guitar is about has nothing to do with "musical ability". It has everything to do with that group of qualities loosely spoken of as "character".


When I was 16 years old, I met a friend who enabled me to put an end to my desperate search for a classical teacher. Scott played the classical guitar, and was taking classical guitar lessons at a music school I had never heard of before. I started going to the school immediately, and I took lessons with his teacher. It was thrilling to meet Scott, because I had never seen a person play the classical guitar in person, only heard it on records (and from that, was trying to teach myself: wrong move!). It was more thrilling to meet his teacher, a trained, experienced, and fine classical player.

As time went by, I remember going over to Scott's house often and playing guitar with him, and hanging out and practicing and playing at his house. After awhile, it became clear that I was surpassing Scott in my classical playing. His mother was a very astute and intelligent person, and would always listen to me play. I remember that she used to remark about a difference she noticed between my relationship and approach to guitar and that of her son Scott. She noticed that I applied myself with an intensity that Scott never exhibited. For instance, she noticed that I would work relentlessly on the same piece, the same passages, the same problems, always striving to reach a higher level of perfection with what I was playing. For whatever reason, Scott just did not do this. (Actually, all reasons come down to one thing: I needed to do it that way, and Scott didn't. The entire "why" of it all would be another essay!)

Believe me, Scott had as much ability to play as I did, as much "natural talent" for music. It took him so far, and apparently, that was far enough for him.

I am in the business of building excellent guitar players, and so, I must convey a certain truth to them along the way, one that does not seem to be obvious and sufficiently appreciated by most people. It is this: it is relatively easy to achieve about 80% of anything. It is relatively easy to develop ourselves to about 80% of proficiency in any field we may choose. If you want to become a computer programmer, a business person, own a restaurant, be a carpenter, be a musician, anything, you can study it, get experience, and become "functional". Most people that bother to develop something useful ( and most do, being forced as we are to "make a living") achieve this level.

But to become really good, to start to rise above, and noticeably so, the average person doing what you do, THAT takes a whole different kind of effort, and a whole lot more of it. Most people do not do this in their particular field. Most people really are, when it comes down to it, content with doing what they "must", and keeping their standards and goals low enough to avoid too much demand and discomfort. That is why the age old lament of all employers is "you just can't find good help anymore". Yes, because the #1 goal of most people is to DO as little as possible and GET as much as possible. That is the formula for mediocrity.

To put it simply, it is easy to be mediocre, that is why so many people are achieving it.

We are all climbing a mountain. In fact, we are climbing various mountains all the time. Becoming a guitar player is a mountain, and every piece of music you work on is its own mountain. It is easy to work on a solo, a song, or a piece, and get it "pretty good". You know, 80% of the notes are there, so hey, leave me alone, what do you want, ALL the notes! Come on, I would have to REALLY work hard on it to get that! To bring a piece of music from 80% to 90% is an incredibly demanding process. Climbing that mountain further and further is the essence of being an artist, no matter what your field of endeavor is.

Yes, that is the truth. It is easy to get 80% of the way up the mountain, any interested party can do that. Closing in on that last 20%, well, that separates the men from the boys, as they say. Here is the thing to understand: every step forward and upward required to move past the common crowd will most likely require as much as ALL the effort previously put out. The higher we climb, the more we must exert for every inch gained, but every inch is precious, and worth more than everything before it. The gap between 99% to 100% is, in fact, infinite.

Yes, the real polish, the real excellence, comes only to those deeply committed to it. I don't know why, I didn't make up the rules. However, I believe it has something to do with some natural "filtering out" process. As if Life were saying "only those acting from great desire, great need of the highest kind, need apply. Only those willing to prove themselves by using every ounce, and then more, of their strength, will achieve greatness".


This is why it is very common for me to have the kind of experience I just had with a student who is working with my two books, The Principles, and The Path. Jim is working on getting his first songs together, beginning to end, strumming, changing chords and singing, and doing it from memory. He was working on the song "Amazing Grace", and has dutifully practiced the chord changes according to my instructions, and was in the process of putting it all together. I told him I wanted the song memorized, and showed him how to go about it.

He came in the next week, and announced that he did some practice on it, but really spent most of the time on the new blues shuffle I had given him. Obviously, it was "spanking time", and I reached for the paddle!

I explained to him "yes, you have achieved the ability to play that song with a lot of hesitation and stumbling, and losing your place. Congratulations. You have climbed part way up the mountain, and that is good enough for you. You decided you would do what was easy, fun, and exciting, the new blues shuffle (exciting because it is new, left up to him, it would receive the same treatment, left half done and never "polished"). You decided to avoid the REAL work of bringing that song all the way to perfection, where you can grab that guitar, and sing and play that song from beginning to end."

Yes, Jim hung his head in shame, and admitted I was right, and resolved to do better!

What I was doing was preventing the swerving toward mediocrity that was already beginning to assert itself for this new student, by giving him the attitude that leads to good and great playing. Now, understand that this student is not intending on being a professional, and in fact is an adult with many responsibilities, and so gets little time to practice, sometimes only a few minutes a day. It doesn't matter. That is no excuse for letting months go by, and ending up with a bunch of butchered and dismembered "pieces" of music that are just that: nothing but pieces!

Whatever level of player or student you are, you must always demand excellence from yourself. And that does NOT mean "do it to the best of your ability". Who knows what ability any of us have. It means "do what must be done to achieve the goal". And that implies you HAVE a goal, and that it is the correct goal. Ultimately, our goal should be to be able to say "as far as I can see, I have climbed".

Segovia, when asked how much he practiced said "as much as I need to". He meant "I work as hard as I have to in order to achieve my vision of what I know is possible".

The artist is constantly climbing, growing into our abilities, constantly surprised at what our striving brings out of us. There is always a new height coming into view, and we climb it because it is there. As time goes by, we occasionally look down at the view and are amazed at how high we have climbed. People below us may look up at us in amazement at the height we have achieved. They may applaud, and the sound of that applause can be like a siren song to some, who may decide to stop and listen, and forget to get up and move on.

A true artist (whether it is your first day playing or your 50th year) will soon lose interest in that, and turn their gaze upward once more, and begin moving once again toward their vision, to the height that remains out of sight for others, and can only be seen and achieved because of the height already attained.

_____________________________

Connect with me on Facebook, all the cool kids are doing it.
https://www.facebook.com/migueldemariaZ


Arizona Wedding Music Guitar
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 29 2005 14:10:25
 
Skai

 

Posts: 317
Joined: Sep. 12 2004
 

RE: Question for everyone (in reply to XXX

Thank you for all that advice! I must say that, the only thing that I think will spur me forward is my attitude. Apart from that, my technical skills pale greatly in comparison.

One thing about me, is that I'm never satisfied, or at least, not easily satisfied. I keep trying to nail everything exactly the way I hear it in my mind. If it doesn't come out the same, then it's not at the minimum level I'd like it to be at.

While some may think that such an attitude sounds like I'm somewhat of a demented player, I find that it has motivated me very well all this while.

_____________________________

Try some Enrique Iglesias for some great cante.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 29 2005 14:35:14
 
sorin popovici

 

Posts: 417
Joined: Jan. 7 2005
From: Iasi, Romania

RE: Question for everyone (in reply to XXX

well, then my answer to the question "how much do u practice ?"

is "well, as much as I need to ... ".

Still ,apart from joking ...it is true ,most people die on their way There...and
most probably I'll finish also like this.Anyway , good thread...

F.Sor please forgive me for butchering u , also I apologize to Tarrega,Bach ...to
Paco De Lucia for a little tremolo...etc.( but I will not apologize to Mettalica )
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 29 2005 15:00:29
 
sorin popovici

 

Posts: 417
Joined: Jan. 7 2005
From: Iasi, Romania

RE: Question for everyone (in reply to XXX

Grisha , if u 're still here ....I want to asku smth.Beeing able to play some
Paco de Lucia and Nunez.How do u find Nunez stuff?

Is it the guy that unbelievable...I mean we all know he is , but still until u have
a piece of his under your fingers it's hard to apreciate all the little details.

Btw , have u meet Nunez also ?


Also another technical thing ....I've heared that in the begining u played some
Paco de Lucia transcribing yourself from records...now , my question is
the basics in flamenco ...where did u get them?Used a method ...yout
father helped u as he already knew the basics?
Now,it's not that hard we have it all transcribed for us ...and ready to be practiced
but I imagine that u weren't all that lucky .

So , do u remember how u started in flamenco ...and how did u evoluate ?
Every player here says smth like ..."well , that book opened my eyes".
Did u have such a book?

Damn , lots of things to ask .Meet Sharon Isbin,John Williams ,Christopher Parkening...etc?
Still ..have a million questions left
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 29 2005 15:03:47
 
Grisha

 

Posts: 1257
Joined: Mar. 17 2005
 

RE: Question for everyone (in reply to XXX

Miguel, thank you for your story. It is indeed so easy to achieve a mediocre level and be content with it. Artist's journey is full of danger, and the path is hard to follow unless you are strong in spirit. The higher you climb the harder it is to progress. Especially if people around you say how great you sound, how amazing you are and so on. It is so tempting to listen to their sweet voices and believe in your greatness and rest on your laurels. This is death to you as an artist.

_____________________________

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 29 2005 15:46:01
 
duende

Posts: 3051
Joined: Dec. 15 2003
From: Sweden

RE: Question for everyone (in reply to Grisha

je je...thats why i practice so much.. I KNOW I SUCK AND IM JUST NOWHERE NEAR ANYTHING GOOD.
But i find that other people find this motivation strange. I see it this way.
The day your pleased with what you do and your skills thats when you die

but this is just me...or?

_____________________________

This is hard stuff!
Don't give up...
And don't make it a race.
Enjoy the ray of sunshine that comes with every new step in knowledge.

RON
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 29 2005 16:50:12
 
sorin popovici

 

Posts: 417
Joined: Jan. 7 2005
From: Iasi, Romania

RE: Question for everyone (in reply to XXX

Henrik , why practice so much .....dont u believe in talent ?

It will all come to you one day.....just believe to the end that u are a genius

It might not work, but who knows ...if u believe that much, maybe the mountain
will come to Mohammad


or better than this , another good addvice: I'm canalizing all my energy to live 200 years .
Just think of an extra 100 years of practice ....
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 29 2005 16:54:23
 
duende

Posts: 3051
Joined: Dec. 15 2003
From: Sweden

RE: Question for everyone (in reply to sorin popovici

even Paco de lucia´s talent wouldn´t matter at all if he only spend 1hrs practicing instead of 8 or 10

_____________________________

This is hard stuff!
Don't give up...
And don't make it a race.
Enjoy the ray of sunshine that comes with every new step in knowledge.

RON
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 29 2005 16:58:12
 
luke.park

Posts: 114
Joined: Dec. 29 2005
 

RE: Question for everyone (in reply to Grisha

hi there, thanks for that. there's some really good advice there. i also read about some of grishas playing, can i listen to this via the internet do you think?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 29 2005 16:58:55
Guest

[Deleted] (in reply to XXX

[Deleted by Admins]
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 29 2005 16:59:17
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13229
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Question for everyone (in reply to Grisha

quote:

By the way, yesterday I saw a couple of videos of Ricardo playing. It was my first time. He is one hell of a player! It would be interesting to hear what he has to say about picado, because his seems to be as fast as Paco's.


Yes I am as fast...in my dreams! I have given my thoughts on picado plenty in the past, sometimes it becomes an arguement. Everything said, nail shape, staccato, rhythmic control. Interesting your comments maestro, regarding tension. I agree, there has to be some if you play fuerte with feeling. When I am not warmed up, I feel the burn and run out of gas quick. If I am warm, I can go faster, longer, more accurate, etc. Also, I notice if I don't eat well during the day.

Honestly, I am way under PDL' speed and control. The better I get, the furthur away his level seems. The interesting thing about art, is that the little details mean a lot to someone who understands. Like poor Salieri in the Amadeus movie. Lot's of folk did not get or like Mozart, but Salieri was getting torn apart by everynote. PDL tears me apart, as he does to many others. It is good that many can write him off as a "jazz fusion" player, to avoid themselves the pain guys like me endure.

Ricardo
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 29 2005 19:59:58
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13229
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Question for everyone (in reply to sorin popovici

quote:

How do u find Nunez stuff?

Is it the guy that unbelievable...I mean we all know he is , but still until u have
a piece of his under your fingers it's hard to apreciate all the little details.

Btw , have u meet Nunez also ?



I know this was for Grisha, but I know Nunez, study from him and played with him. You really have no idea man. You should go to his course in Sanlucar. I think I have seen him at his best once or twice. I sure hope it was, they guy makes my hands shake.

Ricardo
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 29 2005 20:08:43
 
Grisha

 

Posts: 1257
Joined: Mar. 17 2005
 

RE: Question for everyone (in reply to XXX

How true! He made me stop playing for 3 days! After the whole month of 7 hours a day. I was absolutely blown away at his concert. So much control! I played for him and he said "muy bien". And that's all.

_____________________________

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 29 2005 20:29:44
 
sorin popovici

 

Posts: 417
Joined: Jan. 7 2005
From: Iasi, Romania

RE: Question for everyone (in reply to XXX

I did see Ricardo a photo with you and Nunez where both of you are playing
....I so envy you for that .


But got a glimpse of the man Gerardo Nunez...I mean what does he listens, eats,drinks
...does he smoke, does he like coffee ....anything weird ?

Paco smokes and drinks lots of coffee as I understood from whatever list of
things that was on the net where it was said all the things that Paco needed for
coming to your town to play (there were things like limo etc ....but there was there
also like "2 litres of hot coffee in his room or smth.Anyway , I dont knowif that list was a
fake or not (interesting in that list Paco mentioned that he needs a concert chair
with very specific details like height between X cm and Y cm.)Also he doesnt like fast food
and he likes fish )

Well , I think sometimes that if I got one picture with Nunez or PDL ...I would stop
trying to play ...it's like "well,I met the greatest...that's enough for me "
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 29 2005 20:43:19

ToddK

 

Posts: 2960
Joined: Dec. 6 2004
 

RE: Question for everyone (in reply to XXX

Ahyyah yahy!

_____________________________

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 29 2005 20:47:30
 
sorin popovici

 

Posts: 417
Joined: Jan. 7 2005
From: Iasi, Romania

RE: Question for everyone (in reply to XXX

btw ... I just discovered this ...this Riqueni guy ...well he's kind of hot .I'm afraid to look
more
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 29 2005 21:23:51
 
Grisha

 

Posts: 1257
Joined: Mar. 17 2005
 

[Deleted] 

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Dec. 29 2005 21:46:18
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 29 2005 21:32:12
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13229
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Question for everyone (in reply to sorin popovici

quote:

But got a glimpse of the man Gerardo Nunez...I mean what does he listens, eats,drinks
...does he smoke, does he like coffee ....anything weird ?



You are getting off topic, but here is one. Despite the late night juergas, you see Gerardo everymorning going to class early, riding his little motor bike, with his guitar on his shoulder, and his coffee to go. He does not smoke or do drugs that I have seen (and I have seen lots of flamencos doing that stuff), but he drinks manzanilla and coffee like most andalusions.

So one night, after accompanying Rafael de Utrera in a mini impromtu concert, he handed his Conde guitar to a random student to use in the juerga that was starting. He was wearing blue jeans, T-shirt and sneakers. I approached him to tell him how great it was. After halking a luggy (spitting) onto the street, he said "Bonito, no?", then jumped on his bike and peeled out, giving his teenage daughter a quick ride home before more partying. Very down to earth guy,if you know what I mean.

Here is photo from a few years back of me teaching Gerardo how Jucal goes:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v238/RicardoM/GerardoandRichard.jpg

Ricardo
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 29 2005 21:35:39
 
sorin popovici

 

Posts: 417
Joined: Jan. 7 2005
From: Iasi, Romania

RE: Question for everyone (in reply to XXX

Dont know how much ...I just do cause I'm too lazy to do smth else.And sometimes
it happen in the middle of the practice to discover smth and it's nice ...but that
happens only rarely and after long practice sessions.


[Offtopic]
quote:

Here is photo from a few years back of me teaching Gerardo how Jucal goes:

[Joke]
That's not fair ...it's like asking ..I dont know Kimi Raikonnen to teach me to drive.
U're not beeing a good sport!!! [/Joke]
Thanks for the picture !
[/Offtopic]
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 29 2005 21:44:36
 
luke.park

Posts: 114
Joined: Dec. 29 2005
 

RE: Question for everyone (in reply to Grisha

grisha,

i have been listening to some of your playing on your website. it really is fantastic and i very much admire your ability and technique! your ear for the music is uncanny, i humbly show my respect. i am currently bogged down a lot with school and often find myself in maths with the itch to go and play and having to do schoolwork impedes my practice time which is annoying.. i look forward to the day i have unlimited time to practice, which is this week as im on school holiday!

_____________________________



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 29 2005 21:56:09
 
Florian

 

Posts: 9240
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
 

[Deleted] 

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Dec. 30 2005 0:42:00
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 29 2005 22:17:07
 
sorin popovici

 

Posts: 417
Joined: Jan. 7 2005
From: Iasi, Romania

RE: Question for everyone (in reply to XXX

cool ...cool like small dogs....I think I have also an very old mp3 with your dog(when
first downloaded a lot of stuff )
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 29 2005 23:15:39
 
Florian

Posts: 9240
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Question for everyone (in reply to XXX



I deleated the photo, is way too big

_____________________________

Rest In Peace Ron, I will never ever forget you my friend.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 29 2005 23:38:17
 
carlos soto

 

Posts: 126
Joined: Oct. 22 2005
 

RE: Question for everyone (in reply to XXX

I just saw a tv show called Brainman in which a guy could calculate any number with no tought at all, in fact he was just reading a ''map'' in his head in order to tell whichever the numbers were. There was also a kid who could draw amazingly and a guy whoo could read a page in 8 seconds but both of them were socially unable to succeed, only the first guy had the ability of the math and social skills. This actually proves that we can be born in some way to be good at something, but actually it also means that we can addapt to do whatever we do as an habit, like the math sabant who addapted his ability to the social scheme, of course there is people that is born uncapable, but most humans have the potential to do something by addapting to it.
I was also reading some stuff of how our brain works and aparently we have ''two'' brains the right and the left side perform different tasks, for instance one brain controls the graphic memory and the physical aspect and the other brain controls logic and sequence funtions, for some actions we need only one brain and the other would only interfere with the one performing(when having sex)the action, but overall the best and more lucid way of doing something is when we are using both brains in armony, and that's why you can understand something the best when you see it from every possible dimesion, that is graphically, mathematically and with words. I just think when composing something this could be the key, in order to have ideas you need one part of the brain to be really crazy(thats the poet brain) but you also need the logical brain to give order to the craziness... Sorry for changing the topic but I just think this is key if we are talking about being an artist, we should not only play well but also have something to communicate, for me that's art, to tell something, and it's a long way up but that's my aspiration.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 30 2005 5:20:20
 
sorin popovici

 

Posts: 417
Joined: Jan. 7 2005
From: Iasi, Romania

RE: Question for everyone (in reply to XXX

i like your idea .....but this for me will be useful in 10 years or maybe more.I'm learning
my first words with my guitar ...u cant expect me to be a poet knowing 3 words.So ,
as few of us are There,and few of us have the means to express a new idea...we prefere
to concentrate on learning the means for expressing...so that's why all these talks about
technique reapear constantly(read already a lot of topics on picado..but still i dont have my answer,so I look again into my practice and into other people's opinion).
It's not that we dont wanna be artists ....it's just that I cant ...

Just remembered Ricardo ...cool movie Amadeus , huh?
Btw have u read Mann's Doctor Faustus?(i'm always looking for movie related books or movies).
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 30 2005 13:49:30
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