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Dani de Moron hand position   You are logged in as Guest
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HolyEvil

Posts: 1239
Joined: Nov. 6 2008
From: Sydney, Australia

Dani de Moron hand position 

Hey guys, does anyone here position their right hand for arpeggios like dani de moron?
His hand has a straight wrist, with no ulnar deviation (bending laterally towards the little finger side, his fingers are about 45 degree ish to the strings. Compared to what I've been taught, which is more like Gerardo nunez position where the fingers are more perpendicular to the strings, with the wrist bent.

I have a index finger problem with i find it really hard to alternate arpeggio with imimim mimimi etc. I'm testing with dani's position to see if it helps with the problem,does anyone know or notice from dani's videos whether his wrist is flex only very slightly or not bent at all when he does arpeggios.

It's been nearly 3 years since I can play flamenco properly and I would like to play it again.

I can't seem to upload photos on my iPad, will upload it on wed when I get home on my pc.

Cheers
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 6 2014 1:22:28
 
HolyEvil

Posts: 1239
Joined: Nov. 6 2008
From: Sydney, Australia

RE: Dani de Moron hand position (in reply to HolyEvil

Example of gerardo position

Example of dani's right hand









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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 6 2014 1:26:27
 
Ricardo

Posts: 11444
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Dani de Moron hand position (in reply to HolyEvil

quote:

ORIGINAL: HolyEvil

Hey guys, does anyone here position their right hand for arpeggios like dani de moron?
His hand has a straight wrist, with no ulnar deviation (bending laterally towards the little finger side, his fingers are about 45 degree ish to the strings. Compared to what I've been taught, which is more like Gerardo nunez position where the fingers are more perpendicular to the strings, with the wrist bent.

I have a index finger problem with i find it really hard to alternate arpeggio with imimim mimimi etc. I'm testing with dani's position to see if it helps with the problem,does anyone know or notice from dani's videos whether his wrist is flex only very slightly or not bent at all when he does arpeggios.

It's been nearly 3 years since I can play flamenco properly and I would like to play it again.

I can't seem to upload photos on my iPad, will upload it on wed when I get home on my pc.

Cheers


Ok I watched a bunch of videos. He doesn't do "arpegios" in the normal sense. I would describe his playing as "coordinated legatos"....that being he does a myriad of highly personalized RH techniques to keep the fluid and quite precise (although quiet) left hand mechanics flowing. For example, I see a repeat in several palos of something that goes like this: thumb across a single or couple bass notes, a plucking/grabbing or brief arp like ima or ami, then thumb again and change angle of wrist to play with flesh of thumb on trebels strings, then pull arm way up to do imi type picado burst (with tons of in efficient extra movement), then repeat it all again with totally different left hand notes that are filling in legatos at every possible moment and making it all sound pretty. the brief ima or ami things might be replaced by p-m-i, or p-p-i type things more often than not.

His pulgar and alzapua passages are pretty normal understanding he loves his ligados to connect the dots as often as possible. And his true "flamenco" feeling comes out with his aggressive rasgueados that are in stark dynamic contrast to his relatively soft legato stuff. All in all I would say his style is so personalized you might have to go for the note for note type transcription of some passages, rather than base any of your own technique on the visual alone, if you intend to execute more traditional style music or just want to develop a general solid technique.

ricardo

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 6 2014 5:20:34
 
Arash

Posts: 4408
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: Dani de Moron hand position (in reply to HolyEvil

Don't know what the exact problem with your index finger is, but just try to adopt your technique, position, etc. to your problem and see what works for you without any pain. Don't need to copy an exact certain position, specially with a finger problem.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 6 2014 6:17:44

ToddK

 

Posts: 2960
Joined: Dec. 6 2004
 

RE: Dani de Moron hand position (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

.that being he does a myriad of highly personalized RH techniques


Would you say he has a "Plethora" of RH techniques?



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 6 2014 15:22:56
 
Sr. Martins

Posts: 3040
Joined: Apr. 4 2011
 

RE: Dani de Moron hand position (in reply to HolyEvil

Slightly off topic...

Do you guys like his album?


I enjoy his playing on youtube but after listening to the album a few times... reminds me of the "meh" feeling I got after listening to Juan Habichuela Nieto's album..


Maybe I haven't grasped it well yet... or is it really sort of "meh"?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 6 2014 16:21:27
 
HolyEvil

Posts: 1239
Joined: Nov. 6 2008
From: Sydney, Australia

RE: Dani de Moron hand position (in reply to Sr. Martins

Man I love his album, more than diego's album. I like dani's melodies.

My finger doesn't have pain, it just doesn't wanna do what I tell it to do, and the I fingert twitches if I rest my middle finger on the string, I'm trying to do as little planting as possible with the m finger, which is really hard cuz I've always practice planting.
And alternating imim arpeggio is hard cuz the i does a plucking motion when m plays, so it's really hard to do imim cuz the i is going iiiiiiii all the time.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 6 2014 23:36:25
 
Sr. Martins

Posts: 3040
Joined: Apr. 4 2011
 

RE: Dani de Moron hand position (in reply to HolyEvil

Yeah, it's not like he isn't playing inspired stuff... maybe I just don't like the way it sounds (production/mix).

What happened to your finger?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 7 2014 0:14:23
 
rombsix

Posts: 7019
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: Dani de Moron hand position (in reply to ToddK

quote:

Would you say he has a "Plethora" of RH techniques?


Hahahahahahaha!

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Ramzi

http://www.youtube.com/rombsix
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 7 2014 0:33:09
 
kudo

Posts: 2064
Joined: Sep. 3 2009
 

RE: Dani de Moron hand position (in reply to HolyEvil

heres a close 1 hr concert video of him


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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 7 2014 2:30:13
 
svilian

 

Posts: 6
Joined: Oct. 7 2014
 

RE: Dani de Moron hand position (in reply to HolyEvil

I love Dani de Moron, he is one of the best guitar players around
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 7 2014 10:22:37
 
Blondie#2

 

Posts: 530
Joined: Sep. 14 2010
 

RE: Dani de Moron hand position (in reply to HolyEvil

quote:

ORIGINAL: HolyEvil
My finger doesn't have pain, it just doesn't wanna do what I tell it to do, and the I fingert twitches if I rest my middle finger on the string, I'm trying to do as little planting as possible with the m finger, which is really hard cuz I've always practice planting.
And alternating imim arpeggio is hard cuz the i does a plucking motion when m plays, so it's really hard to do imim cuz the i is going iiiiiiii all the time.


Ok so we have already discussed your issue a few times:

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=217327&appid=&p=&mpage=4&key=focal%2Cdystonia%2Cholyevil&tmode=&smode=&s=#221703
http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=189147&appid=&p=&mpage=1&key=focal%2Cdystonia%2Cholyevil&tmode=&smode=&s=#227733
http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=245940&appid=&p=&mpage=1&key=focal%2Cdystonia%2Cholyevil&tmode=&smode=&s=#245989

With a movement disorder like this, your brain's map of I and M is messed up, and overlapping when it should be clear and distinct. When I had this problem my I finger wouldn't just twitch or do a plucking motion when I played M, it actually curled tightly into my palm, much worse than your problem.

I do not think that Dani's wrist position is relevant and trying to copy it will probably be a dead end for you assuming you have a comfortable position already
actually this isn't a 'flamenco technique' issue at all and a good place for advice would be the Facebook group Elie mentioned in one of the previous threads.

Basically, you need retrain I and M to work independently - pluck single notes slowly just with I, free stroke, using a metronome & ensuring you let it return and feel it empty of tension completely each time. Make sure I is not interfering with any other fingers. Actually check this out with A finger too.

Then try it the same with M finger but this is the critical bit - set the metronome at a speed at which you can pluck and return/relax M without *any* unwanted movement in I, not even the slightest twitch. You will need to calibrate that and you keep moving the metronome down until you get there, could be one note per second or even slower, that's your threshold. Don't plant.

Once you have that speed, you stay there for a couple of of weeks working on that exercise. Then, as planting is an issue, try the exercise with a small amount preparation/planting. So lets say you are plucking freely with M at one note every two seconds and metronome is clicking every second ; well now try preparing M on the string every click in between your pluck so you are going: plant-pluck-plant-pluck against the metronome click.
Hopefully that makes sense.

Do this for a couple of weeks before notching it up slightly and repeat for another couple of weeks always staying below threshold.

Try it with rest stroke too, though free stroke is more important.

Once you have worked on that and are making good progress (couple of months maybe) you start to introduce complexity - IM and MA alternations, with the same principles, then different arpeggio combos but again this has to be done slowly (the Giuliani 120 right hand studies are good for this, the Berg edition is excellent).

Trying to play repertoire or anything more complicated will simply ingrain the problem you already have, it is like playing a stuck record, the needle will keep following the wrong path and if anything just consolidate that wrong path.

You need a lot of patience to retrain and resolve this, but it is certainly possible. I am sure Orson will chip in, he has some valuable thoughts/experience on this too.

That's a basic outline, there are lots of little things and tricks to help things but I am a slow typist.

HTH and by the way this methodology has been published in a paper by Sakai called Slow Down Therapy, I can send you a copy if you like.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 7 2014 10:50:37
 
HolyEvil

Posts: 1239
Joined: Nov. 6 2008
From: Sydney, Australia

RE: Dani de Moron hand position (in reply to HolyEvil

Thanks for the replies guys.

Another weird thing is that, I can do mamama or amamama without i twitching when m plays, it's only when i comes after the m then the i would twitch before it plays.
Eg pimama no twitching of i, but pmiami the i would twitch both times. In pimami, the twitching would only come at the last m before i is played.

Super weird.

My problem started out with i curling when p or a is played, with no m involvement, somehow in my retraining, i got involved with m.
Now i doesn't curl when p or a is played, all independent, but imim is bad but mimi is worse. Super weird.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 7 2014 23:26:02
 
Blondie#2

 

Posts: 530
Joined: Sep. 14 2010
 

RE: Dani de Moron hand position (in reply to HolyEvil

Actually its not weird at all. Google 'neuroplasticity'.

Your brain is constantly creating new connections and pathways to try and improve performance of motor skills, based on feedback it gets from your senses. This is how the sensory motor system works, it is how we acquire and become better performing motor skills.

Recovering from a movement disorder is the same process, you learn your way out of it. Things change as you make progress, and the nature of the problem changes too. Your strategies then need to adapt also if you want to move forward, you have to be creative.

It is good that you have narrowed down your problem - but in relation to MI being worse than IM, if you follow my instructions above, and don't alternate the fingers as if they are walking but actually allow each finger to return and relax before starting the next finger, you should not see any difference. You need to work on that before actually alternating ( flexing one whilst the other simultaneously extends).

Another useful one for you to try might be PMPIPMPI.. as the P in between gives either M or I time to relax and return each time, so its a nice way of building alternation of I and M when you have a problem like yours.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 8 2014 8:02:31
 
guitarbuddha

 

Posts: 2969
Joined: Jan. 4 2007
 

RE: Dani de Moron hand position (in reply to HolyEvil

Hi I'd just like to add another suggestion HolyEvil.

The trouble you might be having with regards to planting might be that you are tensing on the string. And if the previous finger is still tensing on the string it landed on then pretty quickly you will get uncomfortable.

Planting shouldn't be a problem if you are going REAL slow and making sure that both fingers are pretty relaxed on the strings before you allow yourself to play a single note. As you do this you might feel the (i in your case) other finger tense on the string it is resting on. In this case STOP before playing take some time and try again to initiate the motion with the correct finger.

When you do this you will be giving your brain the chance to sort out what is initially for most people a simple finger independence problem. But if you allow yourself to lead by tensing the other finger (which should actually be extending during the motion) you and your brain get more and more confused and the problem starts to seem intractable.

Flamenco is a pretty 'macho' style and you should be comfortable putting a lot of force into the strings. Planting and staccato practice can actually help you get the timing of the tensing required right because you should be able to feel the fingers which should be passive tensing on the strings and IF YOU ARE REALLY GOING SLOW ENOUGH you should have plenty of time to stop.

When I say slow I am thinking maybe metronome at 50 and four clicks between notes and if you feel some unwanted tension developing wait another four, and if necessary another four or eight. It takes a lot of focus and patience but you might learn to enjoy this.

Best of luck.

D.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 8 2014 11:22:43
 
carlolee

 

Posts: 20
Joined: Jul. 1 2014
 

RE: Dani de Moron hand position (in reply to HolyEvil

I see him playing in Cordoba festival with Diego Morao and I like more Diego than him
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 8 2014 18:58:52
 
HolyEvil

Posts: 1239
Joined: Nov. 6 2008
From: Sydney, Australia

RE: Dani de Moron hand position (in reply to kudo

quote:

ORIGINAL: kudo

heres a close 1 hr concert video of him



thanks so much bro! great to watch his right hand.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 9 2014 0:37:37
 
guitarbuddha

 

Posts: 2969
Joined: Jan. 4 2007
 

RE: Dani de Moron hand position (in reply to HolyEvil

You're welcome.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 9 2014 7:30:54
 
HolyEvil

Posts: 1239
Joined: Nov. 6 2008
From: Sydney, Australia

RE: Dani de Moron hand position (in reply to guitarbuddha

quote:

ORIGINAL: guitarbuddha

Hi I'd just like to add another suggestion HolyEvil.

Planting shouldn't be a problem if you are going REAL slow and making sure that both fingers are pretty relaxed on the strings before you allow yourself to play a single note. As you do this you might feel the (i in your case) other finger tense on the string it is resting on. In this case STOP before playing take some time and try again to initiate the motion with the correct finger.

When you do this you will be giving your brain the chance to sort out what is initially for most people a simple finger independence problem. But if you allow yourself to lead by tensing the other finger (which should actually be extending during the motion) you and your brain get more and more confused and the problem starts to seem intractable.



hey mate.. I had a go at this today and it definately helped, trying to move m without moving i and vice versa helped in the twitching during playing, its still there but it's only the first day that i tried..

thank you mate.. sorry for the late reply, but i wanted to try it out and get back to you about the results..

cheers!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 9 2014 8:06:46
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