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Tom Blackshear

 

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
 

RE: volume of a guitar (in reply to Ramon Amira

I have no argument with what you say but to add that a fellow in Spain who bought one of my plans, took it to a builder friend of his to build a Reyes style flamenco guitar.

This was two years ago and the builder took it to the Reyes shop and showed it to the old man, and Reyes Sr. thought he had put his label in one of the Reyes guitars.

So, there are builders who can build to a high order compared with original propio cello. I think the basic motivation is going to be how honorable this quest is for the builder who is doing the replication.

Sr. Postigo played my first build in the Reyes style and he was impressed with Avi's guitar. Avi said that my guitar was comparable to Postigo's best Reyes in his collection. However, there is always going to be different opinions about different builders.

I have yet to share my fine tuning with Poncho Navarro who uses my Reyes plan to build with. He does a good job and you can't beat the price for quality, but I would like to see him come take a fine tuning class from me.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 12 2014 15:15:07
 
Ramon Amira

 

Posts: 1025
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
From: New York City

RE: volume of a guitar (in reply to Tom Blackshear

quote:

the builder took it to the Reyes shop and showed it to the old man, and Reyes Sr. thought he had put his label in one of the Reyes guitars.



I'm sure Reyes Sr. was just being polite - I doubt if he actually thought someone had put a different label in one of his guitars. In an interview from the sixties he said he doesn't number his guitars because he knows every one by sight and sound. I believe him. Of course he is getting on a bit . . .

Ramon

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Classical and flamenco guitars from Spain Ramon Amira Guitars
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 13 2014 4:26:18
 
el carbonero

 

Posts: 295
Joined: Jun. 23 2007
 

RE: volume of a guitar (in reply to Tom Blackshear

tom blackshear ,

Where can you ear your reyes copy ??

What the name.

There are videos on youtube?

tnahks
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 13 2014 10:38:35
 
tri7/5

 

Posts: 549
Joined: May 5 2012
 

RE: volume of a guitar (in reply to Tom Blackshear

Is it possible to have a thread without the Reyes plan always coming up?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 13 2014 12:30:44
 
Tom Blackshear

 

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
 

RE: volume of a guitar (in reply to Ramon Amira

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prominent Critic

quote:

the builder took it to the Reyes shop and showed it to the old man, and Reyes Sr. thought he had put his label in one of the Reyes guitars.



I'm sure Reyes Sr. was just being polite - I doubt if he actually thought someone had put a different label in one of his guitars. In an interview from the sixties he said he doesn't number his guitars because he knows every one by sight and sound. I believe him. Of course he is getting on a bit . . .

Ramon


Ramon, it is not a point to be argued. For example: In 1965 I was going to a movie with Paco del Gastor, I believe the old 50's black and white "Detective" with Kirk Douglas, and as we walked down a main street in Madrid, he looked at me and said, Tomas, you mother is Spanish, and I said, No....He then said, your grand mother is Spanish, and I said, No....

Then Paco said, You can't play flamenco music this way without having Spanish in your blood. I tried to tell him that it was not about the heritage but about the love. But I don't think he ever understood what I was saying.

This is the same way with guitar building. And the 53 years of my building career I have stumbled on certain facets of the old masters that have come closer to the original intent of their own builds. This is what I like to do; take an original style and make it sing.

More than a handful of Luthiers in Spain know each others work and they understand propio sello, so I believe that it is very possible that a good luthier could replicate a master if he cared to.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 13 2014 13:16:05
 
keith

Posts: 1108
Joined: Sep. 29 2009
From: Land of Daniel Boone

RE: volume of a guitar (in reply to Tom Blackshear

yeah, it would be interesting to see a thread run its course without the words, fine tuning, salt, reyes copy and " a famous luthier and i..."
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 13 2014 13:24:10
 
Tom Blackshear

 

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
 

RE: volume of a guitar (in reply to el carbonero

quote:

ORIGINAL: el carbonero

tom blackshear ,

Where can you ear your reyes copy ??

What the name.

There are videos on youtube?

tnahks


Talk to Avi, who owns one of my Reyes styles, and who posts on this list. Perhaps he will post a video of that guitar.....otherwise, a lot of my work was sold to music companies and re-sold to the public. Some California players own them but I don't know their names.

Don Soledad in Florida played a you tube video

This guitar was sent back to me to lower the action and while I had it I did some more fine tuning. Don later sold this guitar to Avi.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 13 2014 13:32:44
 
Tom Blackshear

 

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
 

RE: volume of a guitar (in reply to tri7/5

quote:

ORIGINAL: tri7/5

Is it possible to have a thread without the Reyes plan always coming up?


Yes, I agree with the idea that we should go on with other styles and conversation but I'm at the end of my building career and this is what I have to contribute to those who are interested.

Lord knows I'm limited with my information :-)

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 13 2014 13:44:08
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: volume of a guitar (in reply to tri7/5

quote:

Is it possible to have a thread without the Reyes plan always coming up?


¡¡No!!

According to forum rules, the words "Reyes" and "Conde" have to be present in at least every 5 postings.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 13 2014 16:26:34
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: volume of a guitar (in reply to Tom Blackshear

quote:


quote:

ORIGINAL: tri7/5

Is it possible to have a thread without the Reyes plan always coming up?


Yes, I agree with the idea that we should go on with other styles and conversation but I'm at the end of my building career and this is what I have to contribute to those who are interested.


Dont worry, there are other builders out there building other styles of flamenco guitars. Some even build their own styles.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 13 2014 16:40:28
 
tijeretamiel

 

Posts: 438
Joined: Jan. 6 2012
 

RE: volume of a guitar (in reply to Anders Eliasson

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson

quote:

Is it possible to have a thread without the Reyes plan always coming up?


¡¡No!!

According to forum rules, the words "Reyes" and "Conde" have to be present in at least every 5 postings.


I should have said all threads in FF lead to Conde and Reyes.

Even a thread about Valencia/Sevilla Aubergines would lead to Conde/Reyes.

My favourite aubergines if you wanted to know are either the long thin Chinese Aubergine or the big fat round multi coloured Sicily Aubergine. But the reality I love all aubergines.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 13 2014 16:55:15

C. Vega

 

Posts: 379
Joined: Jan. 16 2004
 

RE: volume of a guitar (in reply to Anders Eliasson

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson

Dont worry, there are other builders out there building other styles of flamenco guitars. Some even build their own styles.






  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 13 2014 16:58:06
 
Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3527
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: volume of a guitar (in reply to tijeretamiel

quote:

ORIGINAL: tijeretamiel

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson

quote:

Is it possible to have a thread without the Reyes plan always coming up?


¡¡No!!

According to forum rules, the words "Reyes" and "Conde" have to be present in at least every 5 postings.


I should have said all threads in FF lead to Conde and Reyes.

Even a thread about Valencia/Sevilla Aubergines would lead to Conde/Reyes.

My favourite aubergines if you wanted to know are either the long thin Chinese Aubergine or the big fat round multi coloured Sicily Aubergine. But the reality I love all aubergines.


We call them eggplants here in the USA. In Tempe, AZ the temperatures are getting up to the mid 70s during the day. My Japanese eggplants and "Black Beauty" plants got through the winter easily. I noticed a few lavender flowers beggining to emerge, and now I see two globular shapes that are the beginnings of fruit. So we should have a couple ready for the table in not too long.

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Arizona Wedding Music Guitar
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 13 2014 18:35:52
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 3308
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: volume of a guitar (in reply to Miguel de Maria

quote:

In Tempe, AZ the temperatures are getting up to the mid 70s during the day.


Hey, Miguel,

Enjoy the delightful weather in Tempe! I recall fondly my visit to Arizona last October when we met up for lunch at Rosita's in Tempe. For eight months of the year the weather in the Tempe-Phoenix-Scottsdale area is exquisite. (Summer gets a bit hot!) Here in the Washington, DC area we have had some real winter weather over the last month. Quite a few days with highs in the 20s and lows in the teens. And just last night and this morning we had eight to ten inches of snow. I have been spending all day by the fireplace, enjoying the fire and re-reading some Sherlock Holmes stories.

Marta and I will be seriously checking out homes in the Phoenix-Scottsdale-Tempe area this year, as we want to anchor ourselves there before too many moons pass. Take care and enjoy the lovely spring.

Cheers,

Bill

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And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 13 2014 19:53:54
 
tele

Posts: 1462
Joined: Aug. 17 2012
 

RE: volume of a guitar (in reply to Anders Eliasson

All roads lead to conde or reyes




quote:

ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson

quote:


quote:

ORIGINAL: tri7/5

Is it possible to have a thread without the Reyes plan always coming up?


Yes, I agree with the idea that we should go on with other styles and conversation but I'm at the end of my building career and this is what I have to contribute to those who are interested.


Dont worry, there are other builders out there building other styles of flamenco guitars. Some even build their own styles.


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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 13 2014 21:22:19
 
Tom Blackshear

 

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
 

RE: volume of a guitar (in reply to tele

quote:

ORIGINAL: tele

All roads lead to conde or reyes
[unquote]


That may be true, to some extent, but not all roads are paved the same. There are 1000's of designs in the European standard and although there are certain guitar makers that claim their own, we have to realize that many are just replicas of things that came before us. If I move a fan brace design just a slight bit off from a master's design, it no longer stays as a master's design. It can be called "Inspired by" but not the same.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 13 2014 22:09:24
 
mezzo

Posts: 1409
Joined: Feb. 18 2010
From: .fr

RE: volume of a guitar (in reply to Tom Blackshear

It's a matter of taste i suppose. I don't care about conde or reyes derivated topic. For me personnaly the most annoying stuff comes in when topics take the road of CG blabla...
Conde or Reyes is related to flamenco, so even if there's such thing going on, i'm not upset. But CG, no way!!

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"The most important part of Flamenco is not in knowing how to interpret it. The higher art is in knowing how to listen." (Luis Agujetas)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 13 2014 22:09:38
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: volume of a guitar (in reply to Tom Blackshear

quote:

There are 1000's of designs in the European standard



ohh, I didnt know we had standards. Does it mean that now I´m breaking the rules again....

All fan braced designs are basically copys inspirations of Torres.
A personal design is when you get to your conclusions by moving around the little sticks in the fan and find your own conclusions. A copy is when you glue the sticks the way someone else did.
Its a matter of culture. Here in Spain very few makes copys. They all move the little sticks around a little bit. Thats very Spanish. They are very curious people. And thats why you see few if any blueprints or guitar plans around.
Building copys and using plans is very american.
I´m not saying that one thing is better than the other. They are just different approaches. Your ideas of how to make a good guitar are very different from mine. I have no problem with that. We each live in the two different cultures and act like we are part of our cultures. But just as it seems to me that you cant get out of your idea of building "the old masters" guitars, I cant understand why doing it. To me each builder has his space and importance and even though someone meticulously copy a plan, he/she´ll have to find their own way if they want to understand what they do and if they want to make good instruments. Its just a continuous search for something. Something that might not even exist. But we all try to get better every day and thats what its all about. And fortunately we all have different tastes and what I like and what I want to achieve doesnt have to be what you like and visa versa.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 14 2014 15:19:46
 
Tom Blackshear

 

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
 

RE: volume of a guitar (in reply to Anders Eliasson

quote:


ohh, I didnt know we had standards. Does it mean that now I´m breaking the rules again....


There is an accepted European luthiers canon that we all draw inspiration from and this is an accepted way of building from those who have gone before us.

Can I build an original design for myself,?....of course I can and have done it at times over the 53 years I've been building guitars.

But I enjoy getting into the mind-set of the masters to find out what they knew about guitar and perhaps how I could improve their work, if possible. There is no shame in this, as it incorporates a lot of knowledge by standing on the shoulders of giants.

We must first try to understand what the greats have done and then move on from there, if we care to. But personally, I haven't gotten to a place to where I know it all...I would probably need another life time to find everything I'm striving for.

But what I have, I gladly pass on to other builders.......This is just another way of sharing the wealth.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 14 2014 15:46:40
 
estebanana

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RE: volume of a guitar (in reply to Tom Blackshear

Estebansan contemplates designs for a new headstock.



Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (1)

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 14 2014 17:56:48
 
Anders Eliasson

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Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: volume of a guitar (in reply to Tom Blackshear

quote:

But I enjoy getting into the mind-set of the masters to find out what they knew about guitar and perhaps how I could improve their work, if possible. There is no shame in this, as it incorporates a lot of knowledge by standing on the shoulders of giants.

We must first try to understand what the greats have done and then move on from there, if we care to. But personally, I haven't gotten to a place to where I know it all...I would probably need another life time to find everything I'm striving for.


Of course, there´s no shame in your way of building guitars. Its your way and thats good. I totally respect that
But you fail when you say:
"We must first try to understand what the greats have done and then move on from there"

Thats just your way of seing things and nothing else. Its a dogmatic and conservative approach IMHO. There are many others. And there´s no reason for saying that your way is the only way. Its a religious approach to guitarmaking and I cant see what religion has to do with lutherie.
If someone wants to go his/her personal way all the time, it can be as good as yours. It depends on the person.
I agree that it can be an enourmous help to study "the old masters" I have done some of that myself, but I dont have your need to put it up as the only way of doing things the way you do, and please allow me to use the word "preach. I use that word because you repeat yourself all the time, whitch is a typical ortodox religious attitude towards life.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 14 2014 19:13:23
 
Tom Blackshear

 

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
 

RE: volume of a guitar (in reply to Anders Eliasson

No problem but what I meant is that we must start some where and learn from a higher authority.

We don't just receive instructions by osmosis.

We have to learn by emulating those who have gone before us.

We have to learn before we do.

We have to believe in something before we act on it.

I was talking to a man today who was thinking about building a Miguel Rodriguez style guitar.

He said he was going to buy the plan and study it.

You don't just start building without instruction from some place.

And generally it's always from a more experienced source.

Otherwise we would never go to school and learn anything.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 14 2014 22:04:49
 
estebanana

Posts: 8324
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: volume of a guitar (in reply to Tom Blackshear

Actually I agree with Tom, you copy until you pull your own style out of the work of the past masters. We are all standing on the shoulders of giants and to not recognize that is silly. The basic Torres guitar is the root of all this and we are all merely building a variant on that instrument. There's nothing terribly original about Spanish guitar making, each maker brings something personal to the method because we are all individuals; if you think your ideas are original it usually means you don't have a tight grasp on the history of the building methods, or use "original designs" as part of your sales concept. It is no different to claim original designs as a selling point just as those who follow a master maker use that as a sales point. At the end of the day everyones guitar making work is a pastiche of the hard core traditional mannerisms with personal stylistic flourishes added on top. Each maker decides which part of that mix of the tradition and your own touches you can best sell. It's all about naming which parts you can sell so I don't buy any arguments about who is doing more valid work based on claims of "originality" over "tradition".

If you want to be "original" these days learn to write computer code and be a genius at it. Good luck with being original in this world. "There's nothing new under the sun"...Bible quote.

I would also challenge the idea that Americans are copyists while Spanish makers are not.

Moorish design elements constitute yet another of the colors one can pick up off the pastiche palette, and I would agree with Anders that the "Moorish" themes and motifs in guitar making are modern style mannerisms introduced to emphasize Spain's history and that flamenco has a partial Arabic influence. However the Moorish elements in headstocks and rosettes, etc. are more like 'Orientalisms'- fetishized or fantasized references to Spain's past which don't have any bearing on the actual development of the modern guitar. ( See 'Edward Said' for more on the concept of Orientalism as a cultural romantic notion)

Two examples of design motifs that do not fit the Mooorish profiles are Torres' head stocks and rosette tiles.

I attended a demonstration lecture given by R.E. Brune' in which he spoke about the Torres head stock and showed that it was derived from the shapes and patterns of Andalusian Christian grave stones. The three hills motif of Torres head stock is a direct reference to the three hills at Calvary where Christ was crucified. It is in no way shape or format Moorish. The "Moorish influence" that people speak of is a romantic overlay of Arabic design fragments introduced later in the 20th century to create a sales talking point to connect flamenco guitars with Arabic romance and picaresque stories. Think more of tourists going to see the Alhambra and wanting buy a momento of the visit. You see even the label in Manuel de la Chica's guitars want to make an Arabic reference.

Arabic influence in guitar design is an artificial construct introduced later after the modern format was well established. And there is nothing wrong with that, but lets understand the way Arabic influence is used in guitar making to create an "Oriental mystique". If one were to take a long view survey of the fragments of Arab motifs in guitars you see it creeps in most after the 1920's and 30's- and most significantly it is not created by using actual Arabic geometric methods, it is just drawn to look "Araby" and had nothing to do with Moorish design practice and proportional relationships.

The tiles of rosettes are not Moorish in origin either, they reach farther back into time and are truly motifs and working methods that come from Roman mosiac art from the Betica period when Romans occupied Andalucia. The rosettes tiles and motifs from the makers who Torres _copied_ before he forged his own style are clearly of non Arabic origin because the geometry, and the resulting shapes derived from the use of that style of geometry create patters which do not generally match the motifs of the rosettes of Torres' precursors. A visit to the library to check out books on Roman mosaic work, or better yet to a museum which has a collection of Roman mosiac dating from the Betica time sequence would clearly show in the borders, fields and images of Roman mosiac work many of the same motifs present in Torres and pre Torres Spanish inlay work. Furthermore, the same Roman mosaic work motifs are known through history of Spanish furniture and decorative arts and design and express in almost all cases either a Roman or Northern Christian influenced flavor. I also maintain that aside from true historical buildings in Andalucia that are Arabic in origin or post arabic architecture from transitional times from Islamic rule to full Christian rule, precious little in Andalucian design is truly created using Arab geometric concepts, least of all guitars.

The modern guitar as is was developed in Spain was largely a result of Roman and Christian philosophy and geometric principles that are classically derived. The geometry is more Greek than Moorish, each society cultivated different sensibilities in the way they used math to create design. If we are going to throw around religion and who copies from whom, lets think deeper and substantiate our claims with reasoned out historical examples and not just throw religious mud balls. And I'm fine with anyone contesting my ideas, but you better have a historical and iconographical set of references to counter argue your point. If not then you're not digging deep enough. When many of you argue I get the feeling you don't know what you are talking about or are too lazy or angry to provide actual evidence to support your thesis.

For those of who find English challenging, I feel for you, but you'll have to get help in the form of a dictionary or simply ask someone to explain the concepts you do not understand. I'm happy to oblige, or help. I'm also tired of hearing about someone's level of language skills as an excuse for being nasty and disruptive.

_________________

So loud guitars~ My thought was that the guys who played for Carmen Amaya needed loud double tops with carbon graphite braces-

and the guitarists of today need copies of Santos guitars, because Santos made some of the loudest guitars ever and it would save you guys from struggling with buying all those microphones.

The real answer is a time machine. -

______

Via con basura amigos !

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 15 2014 1:31:42
 
Tom Blackshear

 

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
 

RE: volume of a guitar (in reply to estebanana

quote:


I would also challenge the idea that Americans are copyists while Spanish makers are not.


I remember sort of a humorous story. When I first came to Madrid, I was in Felix Manzanero's shop and a few Spanish guitarists were visiting there.

They saw me playing some Sabicas solea por Bulerias, trying out one of Felix's guitars, and they asked me to show them the falsetas, which I did, and when we finished the short course they thanked me, since, at that time, there were very few records or people playing his music that they could learn from.

I think this same ideal applies to guitar building; you learn to make guitars from a well known pattern, then you proceed to create your own, if that's what you prefer.

Personally, I have found that it is much more difficult to build a tonal copy of a master that create my own.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 15 2014 3:16:37
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: volume of a guitar (in reply to Tom Blackshear

Either you guys are twisting what i wrote or I´m not capable of expressing myself clearly.
Or maybe its because I live in Spain and the two of you in the USA. Maybe the starting points are so different that we cant se the other ones or maybe we wont.


What I wrote was generalizing and I will continue to generalize:
What i see on the internet of bracing patterns from American builders is a tendency to either build a plan or to experiment very close to a plan. This I can compare to what I´ve seen various builders building here (mostly in Granada) . Here I´ve seen a lot of bracing patterns that I couldnt say were either this or that plan or outline. They were not unique, because when you build fan bracing, all the basic concepts are the same, being Torres, Barbero, Bellido or whatever.

Again, I will repeat myself. I´m not saying one way is better than another. I think there are a million of ways to reach a certain point.
But since this foro´s lutherie section is mainly with american builders making spanish guitars I sometimes get a feeling that you guys either dont know or have forgotten how things are done and was done in the instruments motherland.

And yes, The Spanish builders also learnt from each other. Most of them worked in groups and had a master before they started on their own. Thats very typical in both the Madrid the Granada school and many of them started building a very basic flamenco concept that is still very effective. 5 braces almost parallel braces with or without closing struts, braced flat. Later on they started finetuning that concept. Some did 7 braces some stayed with 5. Some angled more than others some built more parallel. Some started building with a scooped out solera, some continued building flat. etc.
It was a continuos cultural devellopment that lead to all the different sizes and shapes that you see now. It was not done by using blueprints with tenth of milimeter written out on all parameters. It was pushing and dragging a bit here and there. Using the thumbs more than the eye. It was a very intuitive way of understanding what was going on.
And its interesting to see how some very different approaces can lead to a result that is more or less the same tonal result.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 15 2014 8:03:23
 
Tom Blackshear

 

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
 

RE: volume of a guitar (in reply to Anders Eliasson

quote:

It was a very intuitive way of understanding what was going on.
And its interesting to see how some very different approaches can lead to a result that is more or less the same tonal result.


I have to agree that no two guitars are the same and that we all have our different approaches to building, to some extent, and that we arrive at a certain tonal result that is very close.

But the basic understanding in fine tuning, which is mostly intuitive, is that we go a little bit further to finish out the art of tonal results. And this is determined by each individual builder.

When I met Manuel Adalid for the first time, he impressed me as being a guitar maker who wanted to know what I knew, he didn't say his way was the best but that he wanted to learn other techniques to possibly improve what he was already building.

After the fine tuning class in my shop he went home to Valencia armed with additional knowledge to make improvements with his build.

So the question is, should we settle into a relative mind set that says we know it all, or do we seek to refine what we know and build a greater instrument, as we go.

If a Spaniard came to me and said he had a perfect way to refine sound, and that he would show it to me, then I would be gracious and accept what he had to show.

Manuel Adalid has done the same...which is the mark of a great man.

To do less, would be disrespectful to either party.

_____________________________

Tom Blackshear Guitar maker
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 15 2014 11:52:55
 
Tom Blackshear

 

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
 

RE: volume of a guitar (in reply to Anders Eliasson

quote:

But since this foro´s lutherie section is mainly with American builders making Spanish guitars I sometimes get a feeling that you guys either don't know or have forgotten how things are done and were done in the instruments motherland.


We think alike about some of this history but keep in mind that we all learn from some source and the American builders are pressed to learn what information they can get from sources that might not be Spanish but it still originates from the Spanish element.

I had to learn from a plan; not a very good one, back in 1958, but it didn't stop there. The reason for most plans today is to get acquainted with the concept of a master builder and try and improve on it from that point. In other words, why experiment with our own thoughts, as beginners, when we don't know that much to begin with.

America was not equipped with the European tradition of having a guitar maker on every street corner to learn from. But we do have a technical mind set to learn other traditions in a rapid fashion. We can study other cultures and arrive at a fair level of reasoning about how things are done.

And then we go to Spain and soak up Ambiente, and come home and teach it to others.

_____________________________

Tom Blackshear Guitar maker
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 15 2014 12:17:40
 
Tom Blackshear

 

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
 

RE: volume of a guitar (in reply to Anders Eliasson

quote:

Either you guys are twisting what i wrote or I´m not capable of expressing myself clearly. Or maybe its because I live in Spain and the two of you in the USA. Maybe the starting points are so different that we cant se the other ones or maybe we wont.


I understand that you have a keen knowledge of the English language but I also give you some freedom when it comes to finer points of understanding English.

I applaud you for at least 3 languages that you speak, and I'm doing well if I can speak my own :-)

But there is no real difference in this art for those who are drawn to its soul, as we are one in understanding that this art reaches everyone who has love for it, no matter where we come from.

_____________________________

Tom Blackshear Guitar maker
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 15 2014 12:40:46
 
estebanana

Posts: 8324
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: volume of a guitar (in reply to Anders Eliasson

quote:

Either you guys are twisting what i wrote or I´m not capable of expressing myself clearly.
Or maybe its because I live in Spain and the two of you in the USA. Maybe the starting points are so different that we cant se the other ones or maybe we wont.


I don't live in the USA, and I'm not twisting what you wrote. If anything I may have a better perspective on guitar making and how Americans understand Spanish guitars because I have a lot of time in Spain and spent many, many years with my Spanish friends in the US. I think what you might see or perceive about Americans and flamenco or guitar making comes through over the internet and offers a narrow profile of who we are and how we understand the world or guitar making.

I would turn the question around and ask you what you really know about Americans and how much time you have spent in the US among the top guitar makers? You paint us like we are one dimensional, as many Europeans do, but do you really know us from being on our turf?

Remember we invented rock & roll and the Fender Stratocaster and it all comes from our sordid past via the transatlantic African slave trade. And when C.F. Martin wanted to leave Germany in the mid 1800's, because he found it difficult to deal with the Old European order of the guild systems, he choose to come to the US and began a dynasty of guitar making.

You act as though we fell off the turnip wagon and we are a nation of country fools or on the other hand, just a pack of rabid salesmen with no integrity. Truth is we are complex and not easy to generalize and the nationalistic shots you take at our expense are boring as hell to us. Not to mention off the mark.

So chill.

_____________________________

https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 15 2014 13:07:33
 
Morante

 

Posts: 1904
Joined: Nov. 21 2010
 

RE: volume of a guitar (in reply to estebanana

My great Spanish made Alhambra steel string acoustic, which I chose over 4 Martins, uses the famous X bracing system, which is usually attributed to CF Martin, which suggests a longtime interchange of ideas
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 15 2014 16:32:50
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