RE: volume of a guitar

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Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: volume of a guitar (in reply to Richard Jernigan)

quote:

Was Jerry's 1975 Reyes typical? Has Reyes' style changed much since 1975?

Don't quote me but I think Jerry's guitar is a 1976, which BTW, has changed considerably with Reyes current designs. Manuel Reyes seemed to produce some really fantastic guitars in the 1980's, and on, up to his current output.

The 2003 design that I copied was a good design, capable of giving good output. But a 1987 design that I passed on to Manuel Adalid seems to have produced a really good guitar. I'll find out in a few weeks as he just finished this design for me to play or resell.

He told my sales agent that the guitar was fantastic. So, I'll find out soon enough and try to remember to pass the information back to this list.

Note: I've built several of Jerry's Reyes design, with thinner tops, and they were all good guitars.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 7 2014 15:40:06

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: volume of a guitar (in reply to el carbonero)

quote:

I dont want to play aaron green .

ignorant

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 7 2014 16:08:58

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: volume of a guitar (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

Don't feed the troll.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 8 2014 1:17:09

tele

Posts: 1464
Joined: Aug. 17 2012

RE: volume of a guitar (in reply to estebanana)

he's already overweight:

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 8 2014 10:56:05

el carbonero

Posts: 295
Joined: Jun. 23 2007

RE: volume of a guitar (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

ignorant

Yes maybe, it's because im a player ,not a constructor...

tele , precioso dibujo!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 8 2014 11:51:54

beno

Posts: 881
Joined: Nov. 3 2006
From: Hungary

RE: volume of a guitar (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

quote:

I played a manuel reyes (maldonado) guitar

now what? a reyes or a maldonado?

quote:

Yes maybe, it's because im a player ,not a constructor...

No...it's your attitude...

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 8 2014 12:32:44

tele

Posts: 1464
Joined: Aug. 17 2012

RE: volume of a guitar (in reply to beno)

quote:

ORIGINAL: beno

quote:

I played a manuel reyes (maldonado) guitar

now what? a reyes or a maldonado?

manuel reyes maldonado, not manuel reyes flores(hijo)

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 8 2014 14:13:58

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: volume of a guitar (in reply to tele)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tele

quote:

ORIGINAL: beno

quote:

I played a manuel reyes (maldonado) guitar

now what? a reyes or a maldonado?

manuel reyes maldonado, not manuel reyes flores(hijo)

Wouldn't it be better just to use the term father and/or son with Reyes?

The 2003 Reyes style I copied was in the style by Manuel Reyes Sr.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 8 2014 15:24:12

Ricardo

Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: volume of a guitar (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Blackshear

quote:

ORIGINAL: tele

quote:

ORIGINAL: beno

quote:

I played a manuel reyes (maldonado) guitar

now what? a reyes or a maldonado?

manuel reyes maldonado, not manuel reyes flores(hijo)

Wouldn't it be better just to use the term father and/or son with Reyes?

The 2003 Reyes style I copied was in the style by Manuel Reyes Sr.

It's always just as good to use full names in spanish but even still, for guitar nerds, "hijo" or "senior" clears things up.

Carbonero is now a troll as we see here, but to play devil's advocate it's understandable to me. The Conde bashing evolved from the harmless "it's hard to find a good one cuz we suspect they are factory built" to the exaggerated joking around that they are chinese plastic junk. That evolution evolved over several years of harmless button pushing between myself and others on the foro, but I recall Carbonero stepping in late in the game and probably got personally offended by the exaggerated conde bashing festival. Without knowing the history and light hearted nature of it all, he seems to keep coming in with more serious defensive comments. I think long standing foro members can cut him a little slack on this issue.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 9 2014 17:36:40

el carbonero

Posts: 295
Joined: Jun. 23 2007

RE: volume of a guitar (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

The problem is the language, because i cant speak very well.

In various foro,if you dont be agree with the mafia ,you are a troll .
It's a classical.

But yes i m offended when i read hundred and hundred critic about conde.

if i m mariano or felipe or other, i will scandalized.

And the conde diffamation can be offended the majority of guitarist who listen.

quote:

I think long standing foro members can cut him a little slack on this issue

why not :

I think long standing foro members can cut his head stock guitars for make a media luna issue?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 9 2014 19:37:13

Ricardo

Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: volume of a guitar (in reply to el carbonero)

quote:

But yes i m offended when i read hundred and hundred critic about conde.

Ok, but it started as some opinion which is fine and I for one egged on a couple guys about it as I also feel, as a pro player and owner of conde's, that it was silly to criticize so strongly, but you reading it literally and miss out on the light heartedness of it all.

quote:

I think long standing foro members can cut his head stock guitars for make a media luna issue?

and defensive statements like that show you STILL don't get that it's a not so serious issue. Conde and the players need no defense for sure.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 9 2014 20:45:56

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: volume of a guitar (in reply to Ricardo)

Ricardo, my understanding about the Conde guitars is that they no longer build their own guitars, that all of their brand name is built by factories, and it's the same with Bernabe guitars

This goes for the Felipe V guitars as well; that their shop is open and that they use a builder to basically clarify that the shop is a working shop, when it actually is a showroom for the factory guitars.

And its possible they use the builder to do set ups and adjustments to the instruments that come into their shop.

I received this information from a pretty good source who knows them.

But if the guitars are good, perhaps they are worth the price, no?

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 9 2014 21:27:53

mark indigo

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007

RE: volume of a guitar (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

The Conde bashing evolved from the harmless "it's hard to find a good one cuz we suspect they are factory built" to the exaggerated joking around that they are chinese plastic junk. That evolution evolved over several years of harmless button pushing between myself and others on the foro, but I recall Carbonero stepping in late in the game and probably got personally offended by the exaggerated conde bashing festival.

also I have gotten the feeling that others have come in "late in the game" and taken the bashing seriously agreeing with it....

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 9 2014 21:34:11

mark indigo

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007

RE: volume of a guitar (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

quote:

my understanding about the Conde guitars is that they no longer build their own guitars, that all of their brand name is built by factories, and it's the same with Bernabe guitars

this needs a lot of clarification
first you have more than one "Conde" business
second you have a range of guitars from student models to pro models (media luna)
third what you mean by "factory" made

it's pretty obvious that when widows of makers carried on the business they were "outsourcing" ie. someone else was making the guitars, but that does not necessarily mean "factory"
I think Morante posted that the top models were made by good luthiers in Madrid. That doesn't sound like a factory to me....

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 9 2014 21:37:26

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: volume of a guitar (in reply to mark indigo)

Let me clarify that there are 5 big factories left in Spain with the Esteve factory in Valencia being the oldest.

But there are outsourced guitars made by smaller shops which do work for name brands. My point was that Conde no longer makes their guitars.

And my further point is that my guitars are made completely by my hands, not out sourced to any other maker or factory.

However, I'm closing down my shop to the public and building very fews guitars as I type this post. I have sold most of my wood and have a stock of rosettes that I'm selling to anyone who has deep pockets:-)

I'm keeping just enough wood and inventory to last another few years and that's it, Folks, no more building for me, just a couple of guitars a year, and that's it.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 9 2014 21:42:29

beno

Posts: 881
Joined: Nov. 3 2006
From: Hungary

RE: volume of a guitar (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

Ricardo, I got Your point, and it's true. I see how bashing Condes became a habit here. I consider myself an outsider in this topic, never wrote a bad word on them.
But, on the other hand I also can see how a lot of tread goes Conde, because of the fans turning them to it. Just take this for example.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 9 2014 21:54:42

RobJe

Posts: 731
Joined: Dec. 16 2006
From: UK

RE: volume of a guitar (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

quote:

Ricardo, my understanding about the Conde guitars is that they no longer build their own guitars, that all of their brand name is built by factories, and it's the same with Bernabe guitars

This goes for the Felipe V guitars as well; that their shop is open and that they use a builder to basically clarify that the shop is a working shop, when it actually is a showroom for the factory guitars.

And its possible they use the builder to do set ups and adjustments to the instruments that come into their shop.

I received this information from a pretty good source who knows them.

But if the guitars are good, perhaps they are worth the price, no?

I don't know who your "pretty good source" is Tom but perhaps you could tell them that the Felipe shop closed in 2010 and that the brothers Mariano and Felipe have separate businesses at different addresses. The old Felipe shop has been bought by a company selling dancewear.

Rob

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 9 2014 21:56:06

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: volume of a guitar (in reply to RobJe)

That's the last I heard; obviously time changes things. I'll try and check back with my source to see what happened, if the brothers are now building their own guitars or maintaining an outlet for their factory models.

If the guitars are good, then I can see the benefit of allowing factory made guitars to carry a Conde label. The brothers would hardly be able to build enough guitars to fill their orders.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 10 2014 3:12:58

Ricardo

Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: volume of a guitar (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Blackshear

That's the last I heard; obviously time changes things. I'll try and check back with my source to see what happened, if the brothers are now building their own guitars or maintaining an outlet for their factory models.

If the guitars are good, then I can see the benefit of allowing factory made guitars to carry a Conde label. The brothers would hardly be able to build enough guitars to fill their orders.

Lots of people "hear" stuff, the rest is inferred. "No way they can build that many instruments between two guys....Those boyd don't know how to build a guitar so they have Valencia do it all....I know a guy that knows a guy that knows a guy that saw them in Valencia at Sanchis shop....I was at sanchis shop and I saw some media lunas sitting around..." and so it goes. Here is what I know.

Years ago we saw a Ricardo Sanchis Carpio stamp on the soundboard of an Atocha conde. The price of the conde was $1200. A hair inflated from a normal Sanchis at that time. Chicuelo plays an Atocha Conde that LOOKS identical to your typical 90's era Felipe V A26. Perhaps a mistake from Valencia and the guitar went to the wrong "show room" address? Busted? Hard to say for sure as we don't have hard proof, only hearsay and conjecture to go on. B models certainly are Valencia made, master guitars of the other shop are out sourced of course...so the real question is the A models of Felipe and Mariano Conde. Could it be possible that they actual KNOW HOW TO BUILD A GUITAR AND DO????? THe reason is, simply, the price discrepency. Valencia made condes cost about the same as Valencia made guitars with true valencia labels. But A models of the one and only Felipe V address have always cost a lot more. I played several TOP model Sanchis guitars, hand built and numbered by Sanchis himself, and they did not sound or feel the same as a good Conde A26 (I mean not as good even though the price was approaching Conde A models). I am still not 100% convinced. I have offered that perhaps the finish work is done by the same people hence a confusion of who is the builder, but most shoot me down on that right away.

THis summer nunez invited FELIPE CONDE to our class to show his guitars and answer questions. Couple people did in fact ask for the straight answer "how could you guys have built so many guitars"...and take his answers as bold face lies. He now only makes two guitar models himself, and offers no student or B models anymore. He has a primera model and segunda model, that's it. Both were fine guitars. Except for the finish detailing I felt the guitar in same calibur of sound and feel as my A26 and others I have played. He says he built it. I asked if he finish it he said french polish only, he has someone do the synthetic lacquer. A friend in class leaned over and whispered in my ear at that moment "he is lying...he doesn't know how to finish a guitar. He and his brother tried to learn from sanchis but failed ha ha ha ....."....so I said how do you know he says, as usual "a friend of mine saw them in there by coincidence...."....hmmmmm. Ok I asked my friend, does sanchis build the whole guitar or what? He said, no, he builds the guitars then has Sanchis finish them for him....

So next I talked to his wife as the guitars were passed around and Felipe answered more questions. She seemed very serious guitar aficionado, admitted there was a fight between the brothers and they don't talk anymore etc etc. But I still find it hard to believe that they are just there traveling around taking time to show their guitars that they DIDN"T EVEN MAKE...just to fool everybody and steal their money. But of course I must admit it could be the truth. Only way to know is to document from start to finish a single instrument and see how it turns out and if it in fact is a good and typical top model conde as we pro players know them. IMO that would put it all to rest. Or vice versa....a FELIPE CONDE guitar constructed start to finish in Valencia if that is what's going on. Or perhaps both? So far, for me, jury is still out.

The thing that doesn't add up for me finally is this...if Sanchis makes the A condes and always have, the ones that sold back then for 5k and now for 10k, and KNOW they make guitars that pros use that sell for 10K....WHY THE HELL don't they build an equivalent instrument with their OWN label on it? Are they not allowed? You would think they would simply out do em for their own reputation. The "reyes copy" is not better than the real reyes...but why is the "conde copy" so darn successful??? Makes no sense to me.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 11 2014 13:30:30

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: volume of a guitar (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo
The thing that doesn't add up for me finally is this...if Sanchis makes the A condes and always have, the ones that sold back then for 5k and now for 10k, and KNOW they make guitars that pros use that sell for 10K....WHY THE HELL don't they build an equivalent instrument with their OWN label on it?

This is not mysterious. The Conde name is bigger than any issue of quality or price. The few guitar geeks who believe Sanchis makes the Condes would hypothetically switch over, but the great mass of buyers would not. Sanchis would be out a huge cash flow. What they would gain would be higher markup, but wouldn't make up for volume.

If Yamaha secretly made Harley Davidson, and some people knew, that doesn't mean everyone who wants to wear a bandana and leather pants on the weekend would switch over and start buying Yammies. Only the few riders who actually cared about quality and not status. And Yamaha wouldn't want to give up the massive volume they got from making the Harleys.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 11 2014 14:28:15

tijeretamiel

Posts: 441
Joined: Jan. 6 2012

RE: volume of a guitar (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

All threads seem to lead to Conde here.

A post about aubergines I imagine would also lead to Conde.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 11 2014 14:36:32

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: volume of a guitar (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

Could it be possible that they actual KNOW HOW TO BUILD A GUITAR AND DO?????

Or if it was about something you like to joke about.
What if they let build to specs to then ...

Hm hm hmhmhm, hm hm hm ...

... Fine tune them by a traditional procedure?

What would you say if it were to actually be that?
Would you grow a beart and sun glasses to sneak out the back door?

quote:

ORIGINAL: tijeretamiel

All threads seem to lead to Conde here.

A post about aubergines I imagine would also lead to Conde.

Say you have not heard of Valencia aubergines yet!?
There have never been more duende tasting ones.

Only snobs buy them in Madrid.

Ruphus

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 11 2014 15:10:45

Morante

Posts: 2179
Joined: Nov. 21 2010

RE: volume of a guitar (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

Valencia made condes cost about the same as Valencia made guitars with true valencia labels.

Not so. I have bought first class Sanchis guitars for 2000 Euros.

Yes, I was at the Sanchis taller and saw about 50 media luna mastiles.

I have nothing against Conde guitars but I dislike engaño.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 11 2014 15:19:39

RobJe

Posts: 731
Joined: Dec. 16 2006
From: UK

RE: volume of a guitar (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

Lots of people "hear" stuff, the rest is inferred.

Yeah … rumours, rumours – and it is sometimes not even clear which of the 4 outlets they apply to. When the next generation of hermanos (or hermanas) start making guitars the opportunities for spreading stories will be boundless.

I would like to get back to the topic ..aubergines .. no sorry, volume. I started playing in the era when there was no amplification. The big Spanish touring companies had four guitarists. As I remember it, the problems for guitarists were less about projecting into the auditorium and more about hearing yourself and the other guitarists. We played in small/medium provincial theatres (400-700 seats) with two or three guitarists. I had the loudest guitar (a Ramirez) and the heaviest hands – probably the reason why my fingers are in such bad shape now.

There should probably be some consideration of how different frequencies are projected (and reflected off walls) when considering changing preferences for guitars between the amplified and unamplified periods of flamenco performance history.

Here you see five guitarists trying to hold their own against Carmen Amaya.

Rob

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 11 2014 20:05:15

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: volume of a guitar (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

[ The "reyes copy" is not better than the real reyes...but why is the "conde copy" so darn successful??? Makes no sense to me.

Manuel Adalid's "Reyes style" is fantastic, as was passed on to me from a friend of his who said he is almost finished with it. My understanding is that there is no guitar that cannot be as good as an original, if there is pertinent information for the builder who is making a replica of a famous maker.

What makes the guitars different in cost is the collectible of the original. This is where brand names come into play and why guitar houses use a well recognized name on their label.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 11 2014 21:15:03

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: volume of a guitar (in reply to tijeretamiel)

quote:

All threads seem to lead to Conde here.

A post about aubergines I imagine would also lead to Conde.

Exactly. Its completely far out and a waste of time to read posts in the lutherie section.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 12 2014 9:12:50

mark indigo

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007

RE: volume of a guitar (in reply to tijeretamiel)

quote:

A post about aubergines I imagine would also lead to Conde.

depends if it's a homegrown aubergine or grown in a commercial polytunnel.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 12 2014 13:13:03

mark indigo

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007

RE: volume of a guitar (in reply to Morante)

quote:

Yes, I was at the Sanchis taller and saw about 50 media luna mastiles.

didn't you also post that they (ie. media luna's) were made by good luthiers in Madrid?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 12 2014 13:14:33

Morante

Posts: 2179
Joined: Nov. 21 2010

RE: volume of a guitar (in reply to mark indigo)

quote:

didn't you also post that they (ie. media luna's) were made by good luthiers in Madrid?

I posted that the good guitars are reputed to be made by good lutiers. Not all media lunas are good guitars.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 12 2014 13:35:56

Ramon Amira

Posts: 1025
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
From: New York City

RE: volume of a guitar (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

quote:

My understanding is that there is no guitar that cannot be as good as an original, if there is pertinent information for the builder who is making a replica of a famous maker.

Tom - You can't possibly be serious with a statement like that. I have played several Reyes copies, and several real Reyes from the eighties, and while the copies were very good guitars, they simply didn't compare in any way to a real Reyes. Let's not get carried away.

Ramon

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 12 2014 13:55:42