RE: volume of a guitar

Costs are rising and times are tough.
Please consider a donation to keep this
place going.

Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.

This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva and Tom Blackshear who went ahead of us.

We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.

You are logged in as Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >>Discussions >>Lutherie >>

Page: << < 1 2 3 4 [5]

Message

<< Newer Topic Older Topic >>

keith

Posts: 1108
Joined: Sep. 29 2009

[Deleted]

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Apr. 21 2014 17:22:26

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 21 2014 17:11:30

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: volume of a guitar (in reply to Ruphus)

quote:

On an upper level of art relatively short lessons can still be worth a lot.

Thanks Ruphus, the point here is that once this technique is learned it will benefit the builder the rest of his building career. Manuel knows this and so does Charles, who likes to provide fodder for my posts :-)

This technique took me close to 30 years to learn, what I can now show to other builders in a matter of days.

_____________________________

Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 21 2014 19:49:07

mellowmel

Posts: 85
Joined: Aug. 31 2006

RE: volume of a guitar (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Blackshear

It's ironic that American steel strung builders had a certain amount of this knowledge, even before most higher quality flamenco or classical styles came into vogue in this country.

I thought that steel strings itself were just inherently better in coaxing out the best the wood had to offer.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 21 2014 21:05:03

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: volume of a guitar (in reply to mellowmel)

Take into consideration that this is being done with some arch-top builders by building a trap door into the bottom of a guitar, to be able to open up and adjust the tone.

Tom Ribbecke continues to show the range of this beautiful arch top guitar that features a deep bass combined with the clear notes on the high end that is achieved with Tom's patented Halfling® technology.

He builds both ways, with or without the trap door.

_____________________________

Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 21 2014 22:42:02

Arash

Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: volume of a guitar (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

Do we have to turn every thread in to a Conde thread?

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 22 2014 11:17:37

el carbonero

Posts: 295
Joined: Jun. 23 2007

RE: volume of a guitar (in reply to keith)

not necessary arash but honestly , i try and try lot of guitar , and always the conde are the best in volume ,clarity ,sound ....

Last time i tried a guitar made by a nickname of this foro (yellow fruit ) and was no volume and hard to play ,worst than an camps M5 at 400 bucks.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 22 2014 14:35:49

Arash

Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: volume of a guitar (in reply to el carbonero)

Dude, it was a sarcastic comment.

Never mind

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 22 2014 16:01:17

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: volume of a guitar (in reply to el carbonero)

quote:

not necessary arash but honestly , i try and try lot of guitar , and always the conde are the best in volume ,clarity ,sound ....

Last time i tried a guitar made by a nickname of this foro (yellow fruit ) and was no volume and hard to play ,worst than an camps M5 at 400 bucks.

You've never played a guitar of mine, so you are basically lying. And if you have played a guitar of mine you are lying about who you are and about my guitars. In any case you are a liar and you continue your ad hom attacks on me, which I understand are a violation of the terms of service of this site.

And I've quoted you to let it stand that you made this comment in case you try to edit your post. Every time you attack me I will quote your attack for all to see and allow your attacks to stand in public.

I will also quote all oblique insults you make to let it stand in public that you add no substantive information to this site.

_____________________________

https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 23 2014 5:20:20

Escribano

Posts: 6415
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: volume of a guitar (in reply to estebanana)

I have sent you both a message regarding this. I trust that you will heed my request.

_____________________________

Foro Flamenco founder and Admin

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 23 2014 8:35:12

keith

Posts: 1108
Joined: Sep. 29 2009

[Deleted]

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Apr. 23 2014 8:44:12

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 23 2014 8:43:04

el carbonero

Posts: 295
Joined: Jun. 23 2007

RE: volume of a guitar (in reply to keith)

i had really try one guitar made by you estebanana , i hope that was a failed guitar made by you , maybe the others are better .....

I tell only what i think about this guitar in a youtube comment , and you start to insult me in PM , you know that ?
you started ,and i have all in my inbox .

But i am not like you ,i dont want show that in public .

Now you stop to speak with me , i ignore you .

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 23 2014 10:19:43

ralexander

Posts: 797
Joined: Jun. 1 2010
From: Halifax, Nova Scotia

RE: volume of a guitar (in reply to keith)

el carbonero - Stephen is right, this isn't the first time that you've openly attacked him on the Foro and he's not the only one who doesn't appreciate it. He is a valued member who has contributed more here than most ever will. You seem to be a very negative and close minded person - maybe time for a vacation? Stephen does not build bad guitars, I have a peghead blanca of his and it's an awesome traditional style guitar with a unique voice. I have learned over the years to not judge any instrument too harshly after only playing it once.

_____________________________

Ryan

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 23 2014 12:47:08

keith

Posts: 1108
Joined: Sep. 29 2009
From: Back in Boston

RE: volume of a guitar (in reply to el carbonero)

this thread started off with a good question about the volume of a guitar and now is "evolved" or "de-evolved" to a couple of characters using the thread to promote their agenda--be it rattling a sabre or trying to lure folks to buy something.

to the coal miner-- if you have a beef with someone then man up and deal with it by taking it up with that person and either resolve it or move on-- a thread should not be the playground to settle your score. to old salty--yes, everyone knows you can teach someone the arcane secrets of voicing but enough is enough--let a thread be something more that an infomericial.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 23 2014 13:05:25

el carbonero

Posts: 295
Joined: Jun. 23 2007

RE: volume of a guitar (in reply to keith)

tiriti tran tran tran tran ...

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 23 2014 18:36:15

JuanDaBomb

Posts: 189
Joined: May 18 2011

RE: volume of a guitar (in reply to keith)

I've played three of Stephen's guitars, and as someone who has played a few of his instruments and has seen the man work, your comments, El Cabronero, really boggle my mind. Volume is NOT an issue with his guitars, not in the least. With all the ones I played, and have heard played. Not even close. Which is why I'm thoroughly convinced you haven't played any of Stephen's guitars. That's why when I read your comments a part of me gets puzzled. Like trying to divide by zero or something. Say what!? I hope others see this too.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 23 2014 19:18:45

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: volume of a guitar (in reply to JuanDaBomb)

I think it is obvious to see, when Jason plays one of Stephan's guitars, that they have plenty of volume and an educated voice.

_____________________________

Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 23 2014 19:36:22

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: volume of a guitar (in reply to JuanDaBomb)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JuanDaBomb

Which is why I'm thoroughly convinced you haven't played any of Stephen's guitars.

It could have been a humidity issue.
Humidity can incredibly effect guitars. And some react especially sensible.
I remember a Burguet that had turned into wrapped-in-blanket sound on a rainy day.

Ruphus

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 24 2014 0:55:00

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: volume of a guitar (in reply to keith)

Guitars with "educated voice"? His guitars are loud but polite then... Gotta love sonic metaphors

_____________________________

"Ya no me conoce el sol, porque yo duermo de dia"

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 24 2014 1:09:05

el carbonero

Posts: 295
Joined: Jun. 23 2007

[Deleted]

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Apr. 24 2014 10:25:32
Reason for deletion: Unhelpful

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 24 2014 9:30:22

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: volume of a guitar (in reply to keith)

quote:

this thread started off with a good question about the volume of a guitar and now is "evolved" or "de-evolved" to a couple of characters using the thread to promote their agenda--be it rattling a sabre or trying to lure folks to buy something.

to the coal miner-- if you have a beef with someone then man up and deal with it by taking it up with that person and either resolve it or move on-- a thread should not be the playground to settle your score. to old salty--yes, everyone knows you can teach someone the arcane secrets of voicing but enough is enough--let a thread be something more that an infomericial.

Good post. I agree completely.

_____________________________

Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 24 2014 10:37:01

constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1676
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: volume of a guitar (in reply to el carbonero)

quote:

i try and try lot of guitar , and always the conde are the best in volume ,clarity ,sound ....

Another factor that I haven't heard mentioned before--and it is ironic that I just said that--is that our ears are all different. Some of us hear bass more easily while others have better treble hearing ranges. This may account for a lot of the differences of opinion expressed here.

I have good hearing because I have always protected it. I rarely go to live concerts because applause hurts my ears. I still have an earache from one I went to last Friday, though it was worth it to hear a wonderful young violinist. When she stopped playing, I would get one earplug in as the applause started, and then since she was looking in my direction I went ahead and clapped too without getting the other one in.

_____________________________

Ethan Deutsch
www.edluthier.com
www.facebook.com/ethandeutschguitars
www.youtube.com/marioamayaflamenco
I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 2 2014 1:03:05

Erik van Goch

Posts: 1787
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: volume of a guitar (in reply to constructordeguitarras)

quote:

ORIGINAL: constructordeguitarras

quote:

i try and try lot of guitar , and always the conde are the best in volume ,clarity ,sound ....

Another factor that I haven't heard mentioned before--and it is ironic that I just said that--is that our ears are all different. Some of us hear bass more easily while others have better treble hearing ranges. This may account for a lot of the differences of opinion expressed here.

Also the way guitars channel the audio spectrum can differ. When i played my Conde during a flamenco student performance in a local theater my colleagues sitting amongst the audience praised the basses (but mentioned a lack of high) and the colleagues waiting their turn behind stage praised the high but mentioned a lack of bass (or the other way around). My fathers Ramirez sounds excellent to the player but crap to someone sitting in close range. But if you take some distance you'll hear the same fabulous sound the player is hearing and it can easily reach the back rows of a huge concert hall. When he performed with the Rotterdam Symphonic Orchestra the conductor told him it was the first time ever the members were actually able to hear the sound of a guitar during a concert :-). Obviously volume and clarity are to different things. If Paco Peña want a note to stand out over a longer period of time he plays it softer, not harder because a high volumed note also dies faster.

_____________________________

The smaller the object of your focus the bigger the result.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 2 2014 13:51:42

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: volume of a guitar (in reply to Erik van Goch)

quote:

Obviously volume and clarity are to different things. If Paco Peña want a note to stand out over a longer period of time he plays it softer, not harder because a high volumed note also dies faster.

I've found that if the mid register of the guitar is tuned to a vowel tone, like a human voice, it has a higher sending range according to its sound character. Higher volume is not necessary if the guitar has other characteristics that penetrate the atmosphere.

_____________________________

Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 2 2014 14:47:36

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: volume of a guitar (in reply to keith)

In view of average condition things should be relatively predictable.

A high-tech factory like say Tacoma could theoretically circle in on their typical customer and design the sonic footprint in accordance.
Male or female ( females perceiving HF more than males), age ( individual age at corresponding upper limit of HF perception ) ...
And for sales in fact a sound port could be helping, as it should increase the amount of direct sound in relation to room reflection for the player´s left ear ( which is tuned to speech perception, hence notching out FQ below ~ 800 Hz and beyond ~ 3000 Hz).

What above mentioned projection is concerned:
It is only typical for the wave length of LF that you will perceive it best within length of first wave and then again further way ( depending on reflection etc.).
-

Whereas in respect of the common spectrum I prossume that audibility on distance will be dependent on conditions of annulation and build-up of frequencies, which again I suspect to be dependent on how complete the spectrum is retained in the range of notes.
IOW, if separation is good Projection will be as well ... I dilletantize.

Richard, now it´s your turn.

Come and destroy me.

Ruphus

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 2 2014 15:00:05

SephardRick

Posts: 358
Joined: Apr. 11 2014

RE: volume of a guitar (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

quote:

It seems that the European builders were far ahead on this style of building, knowing certain aspects of guitar tone and how to manifest certain voicing techniques to cause a vowel tone rather than just string noise.

I don't think most American builders paid much attention to the truer Spanish styles until about 40 years ago, and even with this recognition we have been slow to pick up on certain fine tuning techniques that were used by the Spaniards.

It's ironic that American steel strung builders had a certain amount of this knowledge, even before most higher quality flamenco or classical styles came into vogue in this country.

Food for thought...Thanks, Tom

_____________________________

Rick

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 6 2014 15:26:54

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: volume of a guitar (in reply to Ruphus)

quote:

Whereas in respect of the common spectrum I presume that audibility on distance will be dependent on conditions of annulation and build-up of frequencies,

And I believe it mostly goes back to how the mid range is tuned for vowel notes.

_____________________________

Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 11 2014 12:33:40

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: volume of a guitar (in reply to keith)

For me it is always between large-scaled and impossible to access youtube vids, but from what you say in the post I think it to only support my idea.

Your aim and ability of tuning to vowel notes in the same time means convergence to musical notes, which again benefits separation ... and from there again projection.

Seems like we have the same idea in mind, `only´ that yours also comes in conjunction with the experience and proficiency of actually building some very fine instruments.

Ruphus

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 11 2014 14:57:20

Gildeavalle

Posts: 47
Joined: Oct. 26 2012
From: Granada

RE: volume of a guitar (in reply to tele)

Volume was always the main problem of the guitar as a solo concert instrument. Aguado in the XIX century always looked for to increasing the volume (he invented the tripodison), and the enlargment of the body by Torres reached it. The thing is that sometimes you have to choose between volume or colour.
Obviously, expertise in guitar making is absolutely necessary, buth in Granada colour in sound is much important. That's one of the characteristics of our School of Guitar Makers.
Nowadays there is another trend among guitarirsts, which is looking for volume and I think Australia offers this.
Everything is up to the client.

I hope this might help you. Any constructive opinion is most welcome

Daniel Gil de Avalle
Guitar Maker
Granada

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (1)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 30 2014 7:59:20

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: volume of a guitar (in reply to Gildeavalle)

quote:

Nowadays there is another trend among guitarists, which is looking for volume and I think Australia offers this.

Everything is up to the client.

The last time I heard from Jeremy Lock, an Australian builder, he told me that his latticed braced guitars were falling out of favor and his clients were asking more for the European fan braced styles, like Santos, etc.

It is obviously up to the clients.

I don't know if this has changed in the past few years.

_____________________________

Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 30 2014 8:35:42

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: volume of a guitar (in reply to keith)

With agendas of historical and indidividuals´ development often times resembling, the typical individual´s development with guitar taste to me appears to be going like:

Commonly starting out from dull entry level instruments, at first one may be longing for volume and clarity above all. Then, after having settled in on an advanced instrument, beginning to explore on further merits like dynamics and timbre.

In the end, on a distinguished level, volume seems to become irrelevant and sound & playability to be meaning everything.
Volume might stay relevant only for the gigging musician who might keep available a loud / well projecting guitar at hand, which usually won´t be his favored instrument anyway.

Ruphus

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 30 2014 9:11:07