Juan Serrano Rasqueado Misconception

Costs are rising and times are tough.
Please consider a donation to keep this
place going.

Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.

This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva and Tom Blackshear who went ahead of us.

We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.

You are logged in as Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >>Discussions >>General >>

Page: [1]

Message

<< Newer Topic Older Topic >>

dformell

Posts: 126
Joined: Nov. 7 2010

Juan Serrano Rasqueado Misconception

Hello Everybody,

A lot of flamenco players have the misconception that Juan Serrano only does one type of rasqueado, namely: ieam

Actually Mr. Serrano does a few more rasqueado patterns; In his book, The King of the Flamenco Guitar starting on page 123 he demonstrates the following rasqueado patterns:

ieam - all down strokes, the signature Serrano rasqueado

emaii - 4 down strokes followed by 1 upstroke - Everyone and their brother knows this one, bare with me.

imaei - 4 down strokes followed by 1 upstroke. A difficult pattern.

Rasqueados en Abanico:

pei - upstroke followed by 2 down strokes

pai - "

pmp - "

peami - Upstroke followed by 4 downstrokes.

In the same book Mr. Serrano also demonstrates an 8 note tremolo, piamiami. Another very challenging technique. Hopefully this post was found useful and informative.

Regards,

Dan

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 2 2012 16:48:44

Guest

[Deleted] (in reply to dformell)

[Deleted by Admins]

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 2 2012 17:04:05

rombsix

Posts: 7808
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: Juan Serrano Rasqueado Misconception (in reply to dformell)

I think all of you are mistaken.

He DEMONSTRATES all those, but he effectively USES only the ieam (all downstroke) one. There was a video on YouTube that had him explain his views on the matter, but it's been deleted - I just checked. I can post some video links from YouTube to show sort of what I'm talking about, but my stand point won't be AS strong without that video which got deleted. Let me know...

I could be wrong though, if some of you know him very closely/personally.

_____________________________

Ramzi

http://www.youtube.com/rombsix

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 2 2012 17:19:14

Ramon Amira

Posts: 1025
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
From: New York City

RE: Juan Serrano Rasqueado Misconception (in reply to dformell)

There are all kinds of misconceptions here. First of all, with respect to Juan Serrano, I knew him a long time ago, and had occasion to be with him privately, and I never once saw him use any rasgueado except IXAM all down, used as a single beat rasgueado, or as continuous (IXAMIXAM etc.)

With two consecutive measures he would use IXAMI if there was an accent on the first beat of the second measure of the two. There are numerous videos of him on YouTube, and you will never see him play any other rasgueado.

Next, on a different thread about continuous rasgueado the OP said he could not do Juan Martin’s XAMIXAMI continuous rasgueado, but had no trouble doing Serrano’s IXAMIXAM. This makes no sense, because there is no difference whatsoever between the two when done as continuous rasgueado. They merely start on a different finger. And to learn either one it is a good idea to practice starting with different fingers.

Finally, there is a vast difference in the way Juan Martin executes that all down continuous rasgueado and the way Juan Serrano executes his. I have rarely heard this discussed, but the fact is that the effect is very different. Juan Serrano’s is a separated rasgueado, with each stroke distinct from the others, whereas Juan Martin’s is what could best be described as a continuous ROLL.

They are both all down, and the fingers follow each other in the same order, but these are two different kinds of rasgueado.

Ramon

_____________________________

Classical and flamenco guitars from Spain Ramon Amira Guitars

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 2 2012 19:05:46

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Juan Serrano Rasqueado Misconception (in reply to dformell)

quote:

Finally, there is a vast difference in the way Juan Martin executes that all down continuous rasgueado and the way Juan Serrano executes his. I have rarely heard this discussed, but the fact is that the effect is very different. Juan Serrano’s is a separated rasgueado, with each stroke distinct from the others, whereas Juan Martin’s is what could best be described as a continuous ROLL.

Possibly flicked and non-flicked?

_____________________________

\m/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 2 2012 19:14:48

Guest

[Deleted] (in reply to Ramon Amira)

[Deleted by Admins]

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 2 2012 19:55:39

rogeliocan

Posts: 811
Joined: Nov. 23 2009
From: Canada

RE: Juan Serrano Rasqueado Misconception (in reply to dformell)

Not to sound negative but I am curious to know, who cares? or why do you care of a misconception, what is the impact?

imaei - 4 down and one up??? (it's not a question)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 2 2012 19:56:13

rombsix

Posts: 7808
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: Juan Serrano Rasqueado Misconception (in reply to Guest)

Scott - the idea is not if he does it as well or not. It's the fact that he merely demonstrates it, and can do it well, but does not actually use / do it unless he is explaining this issue of rasgueado in a lesson environment. He does not perform it in any footage I have seen of him doing concert or video performances of his material.

Rogeliocan - imaei - 4 down and one up. Yes - indeed. Strange, but doable. Ben Woods does that for example, I think...

_____________________________

Ramzi

http://www.youtube.com/rombsix

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 2 2012 21:44:42

rogeliocan

Posts: 811
Joined: Nov. 23 2009
From: Canada

RE: Juan Serrano Rasqueado Misconception (in reply to rombsix)

There are many things everyone can do, if I practice hard enough I bet I could master drinking water through the nose as it connects to the mouth but unless it's for a circus act, why would I want to waste my time practicing that?

Just saying, I know you understand..... but hey, to each his own.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 3 2012 1:06:25

Ricardo

Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Juan Serrano Rasqueado Misconception (in reply to dformell)

The jist of what Juan Serrano's vid that was deleted was getting at, was that doing rasgueado is personal. Every player has the right to choose to USE whichever rasguedo he prefers....but it's important to try to learn what the options are.

Nuñez for example refuses to use his pinky for any rasgueado. The continuous down stroke roll of Juan Serrano for sure is not the more popular one. But all different rasgueados have pros and cons so it's good to know a bunch of different ones.

RIcardo

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 3 2012 13:27:32

attila57

Posts: 51
Joined: Oct. 27 2012
From: Budapest, Hungary

RE: Juan Serrano Rasqueado Misconception (in reply to Ramon Amira)

Hi Ramon,

quote:

Next, on a different thread about continuous rasgueado the OP said he could not do Juan Martin’s XAMIXAMI continuous rasgueado, but had no trouble doing Serrano’s IXAMIXAM. This makes no sense, because there is no difference whatsoever between the two when done as continuous rasgueado. They merely start on a different finger. And to learn either one it is a good idea to practice starting with different fingers

That was me, but I've only said that the good way to learn EAMIEAMI (Juan Martín's type) is to actually start with IEAMIEAM (Juan Serrano's type). It's difficult to start learning it as EAMI because one just wants to stress the final I- stroke. If you put the I-stroke to the front it becomes easy.

I agree that Juan Serrano almost exceptionally uses the IEAM pattern, his 'signature'. In a way, he's a genius, because he invented a different approach to rasgueo and made it easy to learn the continuous roll.

quote:

With two consecutive measures he would use IXAMI if there was an accent on the first beat of the second measure of the two. There are numerous videos of him on YouTube, and you will never see him play any other rasgueado

I also agree with you that Juan Serrano almost only uses his rasgueo the way you noted. It's always a quarter note divided to sixteenth. I call his usage a 'rhythmic usage'.
I think, if you just used this type and no other, it would become quite boring soon.

quote:

Finally, there is a vast difference in the way Juan Martin executes that all down continuous rasgueado and the way Juan Serrano executes his. I have rarely heard this discussed, but the fact is that the effect is very different. Juan Serrano’s is a separated rasgueado, with each stroke distinct from the others, whereas Juan Martin’s is what could best be described as a continuous ROLL

I think, the main difference between Juan Martín's style, and Serrano's style (in terms of rasgueos) is that Juan Martín uses a great number of different kinds of rasgueos. His continuous roll is smoother (as you say), and it is because Juan Serrano flicks his strokes during the roll in a rhythmic way. He always wants to put the right amount of, say, sixteenths in a longer note, whereas JM apparently, doesn't really care. You can try the continuous roll yourself in two different ways. The first: building up tension in your palm before strokes, the second: without tension. The effect is just what you've noticed. JM apparently does his without tension.

I've posted out a lot of stuff in the other string, because I'm actually very interested in this topic, and JM's style, too.

Attila

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 4 2012 19:32:16

rombsix

Posts: 7808
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: Juan Serrano Rasqueado Misconception (in reply to attila57)

Thanks for the feedback y'all!

_____________________________

Ramzi

http://www.youtube.com/rombsix

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 4 2012 20:35:56

machopicasso

Posts: 973
Joined: Nov. 27 2010

RE: Juan Serrano Rasqueado Misconception (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

Nuñez for example refuses to use his pinky for any rasgueado...But all different rasgueados have pros and cons so it's good to know a bunch of different ones.

Is there a useful rasgueado which illustrates the disadvantage of Nuñez's pinky-less approach? I ask because I never use my pinky and want to know what, if anything, I'm missing

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 5 2012 8:55:17

Ricardo

Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Juan Serrano Rasqueado Misconception (in reply to machopicasso)

quote:

ORIGINAL: machopicasso

quote:

Nuñez for example refuses to use his pinky for any rasgueado...But all different rasgueados have pros and cons so it's good to know a bunch of different ones.

Is there a useful rasgueado which illustrates the disadvantage of Nuñez's pinky-less approach? I ask because I never use my pinky and want to know what, if anything, I'm missing

5 tuplets for one, as in La Barrosa. The darn ieam all downstroke being discussed (!), and there are other applications such as eami,ieam, i.... and as a spring off for fast 4s : eami,iami,iami,iami, etc... so many funny things Nuñez missing out on.

I feel Nuñez is actually the only flamenco player I know of that NEVER uses the pinky at some point.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 5 2012 15:09:59

tmock

Posts: 143
Joined: Jan. 23 2005
From: New York, New York

RE: Juan Serrano Rasqueado Misconception (in reply to dformell)

This is getting off on a tangent, but I've always thought it strange that Nunez -- maybe the most technically proficient tocaor out there -- doesn't use his pinky finger as a rule. I mean, he clearly doesn't need his pinky to make the music he wants to make, so in the end it doesn't matter. And his recent hand troubles have only highlighted how incredibly resourceful he is at making his music despite physical constraints. But I wonder whether which came first. (This has probably been discussed on the foro, but I haven't seen it.) Did he realize that his music didn't require his pinky and stop using it, or did he realize his pinky was his weakness and decide to compose around it?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 5 2012 15:36:39

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Juan Serrano Rasqueado Misconception (in reply to dformell)

Completely a guess but we'll see what the experts say.
I think he doesn't like the sound of the 4 finger rasgueo for his compositions. The 3 finger is less of a roll sound and stylistically he likes the crispness of the 3 finger.
again, totally a guess..............and not to say you can't have a crisp 4 finger, but if your 4 finger is crisp your 3 finger is probably crispiererer.......

_____________________________

\m/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 5 2012 16:33:38

machopicasso

Posts: 973
Joined: Nov. 27 2010

RE: Juan Serrano Rasqueado Misconception (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

I feel Nuñez is actually the only flamenco player I know of that NEVER uses the pinky at some point.

Well, that's the style I learned to play. Ever since Behzad taught me his rasqueado exercise years ago and omitted the pinky during the demonstration. Now my pinky pales in comparison to the other fingers in terms of strength, dexterity, etc.