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Picasso, Segovia, Serranito, Manitas
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frhout
Posts: 452
Joined: Apr. 28 2005
From: France
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 Picasso, Segovia, Serranito, Manitas
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The first time I came into contact with flamenco was when somebody gave me a tape with Sabicas' Flamenco Fiesta Gitana (Flamenco On Fire), together with a recording of Manitas de Plata on the other side and finished by Christopher Parkening. I absolutely loved the Sabicas' part but I had felt the Manitas' side was quite different, not knowing exactly the difference but I was sure that it was not quite the same music. I was of course totally ignorant. That was in the late '70s. After all these years, I still from time to time wonder why flamenco music has been misunderstood, or misrepresented, if these are the proper terms.
Picasso says "that man is of greater worth than I am!", after hearing Manitas. For flamenco purists, the assertion by Picasso is surprising as he is from Malaga. Segovia is believed to hate flamenco and says to Serranito he was the one he disliked the least. The French author Jean Cocteau says Manitas is a creator. And Manitas is the one who managed to pursuade the UN to open a diplomatic representation for gypsies.
This is not meant to be controversial but is there something we've missed regarding Manitas apart from the fact that Gypsy Kings, Chico and the Gypsies, Delon and Bardot claim that He is the greatest.
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Date Oct. 7 2012 13:24:57
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3415
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Picasso, Segovia, Serranito, Manitas (in reply to frhout)
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quote:
Delon and Bardot claim that He is the greatest.
Delon and Bardot? Are you suggesting we may have missed something because Delon and Bardot consider him "the greatest"?
And while it may be admirable that Manitas has championed the cause of the Gypsies, what has that got to do with flamenco guitar level of play?
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Oct. 8 2012 13:42:11
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estebanana
Posts: 9007
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
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RE: Picasso, Segovia, Serranito, Manitas (in reply to frhout)
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Not that I want to get too deeply into it, but my old girlfriend is a very fine soprano who studied with Joaquin Nin Culmell, a composer who was De Falla's last student. Nin-Culmell taught at UC Berkeley for many years and after he retired my friend studied with him privately as his last student, eventually giving a world premiere of a song cycle he wrote. Joaquin lived in Oakland CA the last years of his life and he was largely unknown. Died 2004.
To make long story shorterer, he gave my old girlfriend the oral history that flamencos and classical musicians, visual artists mixed it up at parties in the 1920's and 30's more so than thought. That Segovia and Lorca were involved in the concurso, although he was still too young to have been there- and I doubt Segovia accompanied singers. More likely he played his classical stuff.
Anyway what got me interested is this is that Picasso actually said someone was a greater person than himself. Had Manitas been a painter Picasso would probably have had nothing good to say about him. Picasso is an odd duck, one wonders whether he grasped Stravinsky and Eric Satie when he worked with them. Picarsehole was very dismissive of Pierre Bonnard and actually painted over a Modigliani that he owned. Arrogant. The only person he really did not talk down to was Matisse, but he had to say "Matisse and _I _ are the only living painters left who understand light."
Even though Picasso, like Segovia, had a big head, I prefer Picasso to Manitas truth be told, and Bonnard and Nin Culmell even more than De Falla and Cocteau, who was mostly stoned anyway. Cocteau was a fabulous draughtsman though.
Joaquin Nin-Culmell is searchable on the internet, he is a really interesting composer should you want to check him out.
_____________________________
https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
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Date Oct. 9 2012 20:11:01
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3415
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Picasso, Segovia, Serranito, Manitas (in reply to Ricardo)
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quote:
CHarismatic performer. NO other reason. Once you understand what's up, it's easy to see through the chrisma and put things into perspective.
Manitas knew how to play an audience for sure. Paco de Malaga once told me that when Manitas was performing, he would begin by sitting still, guitar poised, and silently looking at a point at the back of the auditorium. He would then suddenly begin playing with violent passion, as if his muse had just inspired him. It was all hokey, of course, but the audience thought they were witnessing the "primitive," inspired gypsy they imagined a flamenco guitarist to be.
I actually kind of like Manitas. I am just speculating here, but I imagine he did not take his charisma and showmanship too seriously, and he probably knew he was not a first-rate flamenco guitarist. But he has a certain appeal that some con-men have, when they good-naturedly know that you can see through them. At least I would like to think of him in that way.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Oct. 9 2012 21:37:18
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3415
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Picasso, Segovia, Serranito, Manitas (in reply to frhout)
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quote:
I wish him well because he's always fun to watch.
I wish him well, too, frhout. And since he just had his 90th birthday, I will toast him tonight with a copita of Jerez seco, muy fino. He has had quite a life. I sure as hell wish I could attract the likes of BB with my toque the way he did!
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Oct. 9 2012 22:07:58
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estebanana
Posts: 9007
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
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RE: Picasso, Segovia, Serranito, Manitas (in reply to frhout)
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Yeah, I have read Nin, I like the stories called The Delta of Venus. Which brands me as a Nin greatest hits lover.
I've been thinking this over too, I don't think Manitas or even Carlos Montoya were totally made of charisma. They are not my 'go to" players by any stretch of the imagination, but I think they merit more than getting by on sheer charisma. Diego conversation of course opens can of worms, but of the three he seems least made of charisma.
The reality is that all those guys can play and judging them by our standards today does not seem to make sense. It's a kind of revisionist judgement. Yeah sure, they could be cheesy showmen, but they all played well. In Diego's case he transmitted a whole toque to family and devoted students. In Montoya's case, well he kind of sold out to make records that had appeal to non committed afcionados, those who did not take time to cultivate flamenco knowledge very deeply. But on the other hand he did record with various singers and maybe those years were pretty damn rough in Spain, so even though I don't really like those solo recordings he made I can't condemn him for making a living playing the guitar. I think his records provided gateway to flamenco for a lot of people around the world. And in the end he made a lot of people happy who probably would not have taken the time to appreciate how Nino Ricardo, Melchor or Escudero et al, played.
I know less about Manitas and he is perhaps the showiest of those guys, but I can't in my heart put him down for that. It sounds like he acted like a gitano ambassador and what could be wrong with that? He reminds me in category of American performers who were are much personality as talent, like Jack Benny the violinist/comedian.
So I base all this on my definition of charismatic; to me charismatic means someone like Charles Manson, to use an extreme example, who being devoid of any talent whatsoever used manipulation to put himself center stage. Based on that definition I kind of feel those three fellas deserve more than making it on charisma alone.
oh and, Cheers!
_____________________________
https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
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Date Oct. 10 2012 23:50:40
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3415
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Picasso, Segovia, Serranito, Manitas (in reply to estebanana)
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quote:
In Montoya's case, well he kind of sold out to make records that had appeal to non committed afcionados, those who did not take time to cultivate flamenco knowledge very deeply. But on the other hand he did record with various singers and maybe those years were pretty damn rough in Spain, so even though I don't really like those solo recordings he made I can't condemn him for making a living playing the guitar. I think his records provided gateway to flamenco for a lot of people around the world. And in the end he made a lot of people happy who probably would not have taken the time to appreciate how Nino Ricardo, Melchor or Escudero et al, played.
Exactly, Stephen. Carlos Montoya could play very good flamenco guitar when he wanted to; he just sort of became sloppy in his performances. He not only played with various singers, he also played for some good dancers in the early years, dancers such as la Argentinita, for example. As for providing a gateway to flamenco for a lot of people, he certainly did for me. I was 17 years old when I bought my first Montoya vinyl album, and I saw him perform in Phoenix, Arizona when I was 18. He got me hooked on flamenco, although I did not take up flamenco guitar until much later. As for Manitas, I have already indicated, in a post above, that I kind of like him. To hell with the purists. Let's just have fun and live-and-let-live.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Oct. 11 2012 0:10:26
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