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RE: Picasso, Segovia, Serranito, Manitas
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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 RE: Picasso, Segovia, Serranito, Manitas (in reply to Ruphus)
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quote:
Don´t know whether this detail is of any value. Just thought to throw it in for infotainment.
Ruphus, your comments and insights always add value to any discussion.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Oct. 15 2012 13:49:28
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z6
Posts: 225
Joined: Mar. 1 2011
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RE: Picasso, Segovia, Serranito, Manitas (in reply to Ruphus)
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quote:
For them it would have been alright so to say to rather see the guy with a bone stuck through his sides of the nose, entering his hut tenderloined, with cannibal prey.
Unlike of what one might expect, racism appears to be provoked by similarities of the stranger.
Don´t know whether this detail is of any value. Just thought to throw it in for infotainment.
That's interesting. The experiments that showed though that people will almost instantly adopt a suggestion (by being split into eye-colour groups then lectured by an 'expert' who claims new evidence shows that brown eyes, for example, denote low intelligence) would be at odds with this, even though it sounds perectly plausible, indeed, like a forgotten truism.
I've seen videos of groups of adults (teachers, if memory serves) who worked together, getting all 'Lord of the flies' on their colleagues (friends? acquaintances? enemies, lovers, etc.) quicker than one can get served a drink in most bars. (You probably know the work... American teacher first did the experiments with children (I think, can't be bothered to look it up), there is a famous one with prisoners and their guards that was a waste of money but proved something to someone, I expect.)
It would require redefining what we might generally accept when we talk of 'strangers'. Yes indeed, that would explain the most savage of civil wars (or bad marriages) and the baddest of political philosophies and religious hypertruths that seem to reach right into families. People is people. 'Stranger' is a very powerful but maleable (like putty) variable.
I, like many here, I expect, am always more than infotained by your comments.
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Date Oct. 15 2012 14:19:38
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Richard Jernigan
Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
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RE: Picasso, Segovia, Serranito, Manitas (in reply to BarkellWH)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: BarkellWH
There are exceptions in both cases, but I think that in North America and Europe, the idea of treating people with dignity, regardless of social status, has become much more ingrained in the social fabric.
I am curious when this became the case.
In the 15th century the Pastons, a family of recent peaant origin, were definitely on the rise. Eventually a Paston was in Elizabeth I's Privy Council. But in the 15th century their lower class origin was still well remembered. The lawyer John Paston became friendly with Sir John Fastolf, the wealthy and childless neighbor of my family. Fastolf was the prototype of Shakespeare's Falstaff. Fastolf lived at Caister Castle on the coast of Norfolk.
In those days the English aristocracy were closely interconnected by ties of kinship. They addressed one another as "cousin". One day John Paston addressed my ancestor John Jernegan, Lord Somerleyton, as "cousin". Somerleyton never spoke to any of the Pastons again.
As lately as the first quarter of the 19th century the upper classes sometimes treated those beneath them with contempt. Lady Frances Jerningham, daughter of Viscount Dillon, wife of a baronet, was a lady in waiting to Princess (later Queen) Charlotte, during the regency and reign of George IV. She kept a detailed diary and a copious correspondence. It is one of the chief historical sources for the manners of the aristocracy of the period. She recounted many episodes of disdain, grading downward to outright cruelty of the aristocracy toward their social inferiors. You get the impression that Lady Frances didn't approve, though it was common enough behavior.
I was a military brat, raised in an overtly stratified society. Yet I clearly remember being instructed 70 years ago at age 4, "A gentleman does this, a gentleman does not do that." One of the things a gentleman did not do was to be rude to his inferiors in rank. An officer might give a direct order to an enlisted man, but he might not be abusive. An officer did not ordinarily use the imperative to another officer, instead he expressed a command as a wish or preference. However written orders used the imperative.
When MIT Lincoln Laboratory were demoted from Technical Director to Technical Advisor at Kwajalein Missile Range, with the Army taking command, a number of my colleagues were infuriated by the Army's abrupt style in e-mails. I tried to tell them the Army guys weren't intentionally being rude, they were just using the telegraphic style of the modern US military. Most of the Army officers were graduates of the US Military Academy at West Point. Most of them avoided the imperative face to face. The few who gave direct orders were very unpopular.
I walked out on an officer who was being abusive. On the chart he was my boss's boss, the second in command of the base, the commander of the technical mission. Soon enough he was sidelined from actual power by his boss the commander, though the chart remained unchanged. I knew I would suffer no reprisal. As I expected, his boss chewed him out soundly, in private, but loudly enough to be heard by the secretary in the outer office. As expected, she promptly spread the word.
I had a civilian subordinate who had been in the first class at West Point that included women. She was intensely ambitious and competitive. As an engineer, she was a diligent worker. When promoted to a managerial position (not by me) she became a tinhorn despot, and was devoutly hated by all her employees. Her new boss was stuck with her for a while, but he got her transferred to a non-supervisory position as soon as he could.
At Kwajalein I worked with the technical elite. There were PhDs from Stanford, MIT and the like. There were people with engineering masters degrees with ten years of very high tech design and development experience. A number of these have gone on to be nationally recognized leaders in electronic technology. There were highly skilled and experienced non-degreed technicians. Almost all these people had mission critical jobs. The highly technical and nationally visible work of the organization depended on their efforts.
But on the logistics side, the carpenters, plumbers, painters, electricians, groundskeepers, garbage collectors--all the people upon whom the daily life of the community depended--stories were rife of unreasonable and abusive bosses, empire builders, liars, swindlers....
I hear of abusive work places often enough to suspect that rudeness to inferiors hasn't quite been entirely stamped out in the USA.
RNJ
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Date Oct. 16 2012 5:51:13
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Ruphus
Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
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RE: Picasso, Segovia, Serranito, Manitas (in reply to BarkellWH)
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My great grandma still let a servant be hung up in the yard, without even prove for him to have been the actual offender.
Eventhough standards of crudeness have not been discarded too long ago, I agree with Bill in that the West has the longest tradition of civilized handling / democratic traces.
Providing that we are viewing only younger history / not regarding ancient one.
Otherwise, it cannot be appreciated enough earlier approaches and achievements in times which could be deemed just ages of darkness if unaware.
quote:
You cannot be buried in obscurity: you are exposed upon a grand theater to the view of the world. If your actions are upright and benevolent, be assured they will augment your power and happiness.
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When I entered Babylon in a peaceful manner, I took up my lordly abode in the royal palace amidst rejoicing and happiness.
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From [Babylon] to Aššur and (from) Susa, Agade, Ešnunna, Zamban, Me-Turnu, Der, as far as the region of Gutium, the sacred centers on the other side of the Tigris, whose sanctuaries had been abandoned for a long time, I returned the images of the gods, who had resided there, to their places and I let them dwell in eternal abodes. I gathered all their inhabitants and returned to them their dwellings.
Cyrus the Great (c. 600 - 529 BC)
Or Chinese emperor Zhu Gaozhi ( 15th century) who ordered the end of the worlds greatest fleet, for no imperial intentions ( and no attempts to heal his economical crisis by conquering elsewhere).
If only the stupid and disreputable wouldn´t have it so much easier than the bright and of style, the humane and reasonable introductions of past 200 years could now be chronologically stuffed with another zero behind the centuries figure.
Where would we meanwhile be just without dumb widgets like of Alexander the Great and a host of him alikes throughout plains and times.
( Yes, I absolutely think thelike worth considering, despite historys dust, as consideration could be hint to contemporary chains of inanity.)
Ruphus
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Date Oct. 16 2012 10:29:15
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Picasso, Segovia, Serranito, Manitas (in reply to Richard Jernigan)
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quote:
I hear of abusive work places often enough to suspect that rudeness to inferiors hasn't quite been entirely stamped out in the USA.
You are absolutely correct, Richard, and I certainly did not indicate that rudeness toward inferiors has been stamped out in the U.S., Canada, Great Britain or Continental Europe. You will note that I used the comparative, "much more ingrained in the social fabric," in my statement, "There are exceptions in both cases, but I think that in North America and Europe, the idea of treating people with dignity, regardless of social status, has become much more ingrained in the social fabric. " I did not state that so-called inferiors were treated with equality, just that they were generally treated with more dignity.
I have lived and worked among Asians and Latin Americans (having spent years living and working in U.S. Embassies in Malaysia, Indonesia, the Philippines, Chile, Honduras, etc.) a good share of my life, and I can unequivocably tell you that the upper classes in those countries generally treat their help (maids, drivers, cooks, gardeners) with little of the dignity with which we treat ours. In fact, many members of the upper classes in those countries found it amusing that we Embassy personnel treated our household help so well.
As I originally stated, one finds exceptions on both sides, but that has been my experience.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Oct. 16 2012 13:25:40
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Richard Jernigan
Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
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RE: Picasso, Segovia, Serranito, Manitas (in reply to BarkellWH)
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Bill-
My point, perhaps clumsily made, was not to disagree, but to muse over when the change in Anglo-American manners had occurred.
My experience in Asia and Latin America parallels yours, and extends to the islands of Oceania as well. The abuses of the Micronesian nobility were sometimes spectacular, though there were also great men and women among them.
While I lived in Micronesia, there were tales within living memory of Marshallese Iroij being assassinated for the abuse of power. But Amata Kabua, Iroij-alap-alap [highest chief] and first President of the Republic of Marshall Islands was a great leader who brought sizable benefits to the people, though he lived like a king. Others among the Marshallese nobility were notorious drunks, thieves and employers of bullies.
As far as that goes, American and European manners in student-teacher and conductor-musician relations have altered significantly during my lifetime. Some of my best teachers were "maestros" of the "my way or the highway" type, up through graduate school at university. I still respect their memory, though I don't think that at my age I would tolerate their dictatorial ways, nor would today's students.
During my youth, Toscanini and Szell were admired as great conductors. Nowadays the musicians would go on strike over their abusive tirades.
RNJ
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Date Oct. 16 2012 15:28:17
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XXX
Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005
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RE: Picasso, Segovia, Serranito, Manitas (in reply to BarkellWH)
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If your being treated badly as a person or economically or politically, if youre getting injured, put in jail or even murdered, it is very important that this happens with the most dignity and humanity and in the democratically most possible way. Its ok that there are people who have to do inferior work for some rich a$$es, but god forbid if you treat them like the low class people they are in such systems. Doesnt fit the ideology of everybody being equal and stuff. Although I dont want anyone to be treated badly, I have to admit, it would serve well as some disillusionment about those so called western values, which at closer look, do not inherit any concrete or material value for anybody (being beaten with dignity hurts as much as without :D), but serve only the purpose of justifying the current political, economical circumstances. Nonetheless to "heighten" the own system above others.
_____________________________
Фламенко
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Date Oct. 16 2012 21:31:51
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chester
Posts: 891
Joined: Oct. 29 2010
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RE: Picasso, Segovia, Serranito, Manitas (in reply to XXX)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Deniz
If your being treated badly as a person or economically or politically, if youre getting injured, put in jail or even murdered, it is very important that this happens with the most dignity and humanity and in the democratically most possible way. Its ok that there are people who have to do inferior work for some rich a$$es, but god forbid if you treat them like the low class people they are in such systems. Doesnt fit the ideology of everybody being equal and stuff. Although I dont want anyone to be treated badly, I have to admit, it would serve well as some disillusionment about those so called western values, which at closer look, do not inherit any concrete or material value for anybody (being beaten with dignity hurts as much as without :D), but serve only the purpose of justifying the current political, economical circumstances. Nonetheless to "heighten" the own system above others.
Whatever man. You've been reading too many articles on thetruth.org.
No one's saying the west is perfect, but it sure beats anywhere else in the world.
I immigrated to NYC at 19 with nothing but a couch to sleep on. Started out passing out flyers for concerts on the street, then got a job as a mover for 3 years (your so called 'inferior work for rich a$$es'), went to school for music, taught myself how to program, and now I own my own home and can afford to hire my own movers.
Please tell me in which great non-westernized country I would of been able to achieve the same results.
You're always whining about hypocrisy this, broken value system that. I'll tell you who's a hypocrite. YOU. Living comfortably in Germany studying in a University, paid for by the state probably.
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Date Oct. 16 2012 22:48:06
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aeolus
Posts: 765
Joined: Oct. 30 2009
From: Mier
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RE: Picasso, Segovia, Serranito, Manitas (in reply to BarkellWH)
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We all have our story and have had to make our way in the world, excepting those of royal blood perhaps, and have seen and received slights of varying magnitude, from those in positions of power,
having been accorded something less that the respect we deserve, but nevertheless mindful of the workings of society, the hierarchical nature of social endeavor, perhaps best defended by recourse to De Imitatione Christi, grateful that words or not stones, and fortified by slings and arrows, turning adversity into advantage, seek our revenge at the first opportunity, for mental solace, recalling Leona Helmsley, the Queen of Mean, who had to suffer the bitter gall of federal incarceration, in a glowing tribute to American egalitarianism.
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Date Oct. 17 2012 11:56:22
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