Picasso, Segovia, Serranito, Manitas (Full Version)

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frhout -> Picasso, Segovia, Serranito, Manitas (Oct. 7 2012 13:24:57)

The first time I came into contact with flamenco was when somebody gave me a tape with Sabicas' Flamenco Fiesta Gitana (Flamenco On Fire), together with a recording of Manitas de Plata on the other side and finished by Christopher Parkening. I absolutely loved the Sabicas' part but I had felt the Manitas' side was quite different, not knowing exactly the difference but I was sure that it was not quite the same music. I was of course totally ignorant. That was in the late '70s. After all these years, I still from time to time wonder why flamenco music has been misunderstood, or misrepresented, if these are the proper terms.

Picasso says "that man is of greater worth than I am!", after hearing Manitas. For flamenco purists, the assertion by Picasso is surprising as he is from Malaga. Segovia is believed to hate flamenco and says to Serranito he was the one he disliked the least. The French author Jean Cocteau says Manitas is a creator. And Manitas is the one who managed to pursuade the UN to open a diplomatic representation for gypsies.

This is not meant to be controversial but is there something we've missed regarding Manitas apart from the fact that Gypsy Kings, Chico and the Gypsies, Delon and Bardot claim that He is the greatest.



aeolus -> RE: Picasso, Segovia, Serranito, Manitas (Oct. 7 2012 20:05:30)

Segovia did not hate flamenco but he feared its appeal would result in a : diminishment of his efforts to have the guitar considered as a fine arts instrument on the level with the violin. In fact, the Guitar Review published a collection of falsetas he had gathered during his travels. Also when Manual de Falla, Segovia, and Lorca traveled Andalusia during the 20s to revive the cante hondo, Segovia accompanied the singers in the contest. He did not care for the fusion trends and for what he considered "nervous fingers" of the current crop of players. I must say I agree with him as the high speed playing does nothing to express music. As for Manitas de Plata as he was billed, I will let the experts here discuss his abilities.



aeolus -> [Deleted] (Oct. 7 2012 20:07:03)

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Oct. 7 2012 20:07:56



Don Dionisio -> RE: Picasso, Segovia, Serranito, Manitas (Oct. 8 2012 3:44:52)

Interesting statement about Segovia accompanying Lorca and DeFalla in
their attempt to 'save' flamenco... Can you please quote the reliable
source where you got that information?
Thanks.



XXX -> RE: Picasso, Segovia, Serranito, Manitas (Oct. 8 2012 10:29:17)

quote:

ORIGINAL: frhout
This is not meant to be controversial but is there something we've missed regarding Manitas apart from the fact that Gypsy Kings, Chico and the Gypsies, Delon and Bardot claim that He is the greatest.


If thats a question then the answer is: no. [:D]
(more serious reply: I wouldnt base my opinion on other people's opinion.)



frhout -> RE: Picasso, Segovia, Serranito, Manitas (Oct. 8 2012 11:03:59)

I suppose it has to be someone or somewhere commercial enough for the UN to notice although it's a well-known fact that gypsies have always been victimized.



BarkellWH -> RE: Picasso, Segovia, Serranito, Manitas (Oct. 8 2012 13:42:11)

quote:

Delon and Bardot claim that He is the greatest.


Delon and Bardot? Are you suggesting we may have missed something because Delon and Bardot consider him "the greatest"?

And while it may be admirable that Manitas has championed the cause of the Gypsies, what has that got to do with flamenco guitar level of play?

Cheers,

Bill



frhout -> RE: Picasso, Segovia, Serranito, Manitas (Oct. 8 2012 14:06:11)

I'm saying that there may be a different view of flamenco from either side of the Pyrenees. There are loads of people who want to emulate from Manitas, particularly in the south of France, while others may find a different path like Juan Carmona who has gone to Spain to impregnate himself with Andalusian flamenco. I don't care much about Delon and Bardot but when all these people come out to celebrate Manitas' birthday, I have the strange feeling that they are promoting gypsy rights in France rather than those in other countries, and Manitas' music seems to have become a local and regional music in their part of the country, quite distinct from the Andalusian equivalent.



aeolus -> RE: Picasso, Segovia, Serranito, Manitas (Oct. 8 2012 14:07:17)

This was actually in reply to Don Dionisio

In his autobiography "Andres Segovia: An Autobiography of the Years 1893-1920'"
Segovia talks a little about the motorcar journey with de Falla and the events of the contest
There was also a TV broadcast I think on the history channel that was about de Falla's life and his sister was interviewed and she recalled the search for artist's to compete for cash prizes took them into taverns which she described as so disreputable she was loath to enter them. This Wiki entry talks about a contest in Granada in which Ramon Mantoya was the accompanist as well as Manolo de Huelva but from Segovia's description the search required a motorcar journey.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concurso_de_Cante_Jondo

In this entry Brook Zern talks about Segovia and flamenco. He refers to the Guitar Review #42 as dedicated to flamenco. I recall a drawing or painting depicting the contest with Segovia onstage with his guitar. It might well have been in this edition. I wanted to buy some back issues a few years ago but they were in some form of hiatus and couldn't tho' their web site listed them. Now I cant even find their site. They were always a volunteer organization it seems and their quarterly publications sometimes stretched out to a year. Any major city library should have them I know the Philadelphia Library did.

http://www.flamencoexperience.com/blog/?cat=26



Erik van Goch -> RE: Picasso, Segovia, Serranito, Manitas (Oct. 8 2012 15:10:57)

Sometimes i wished time traveling was possible....i'm pretty sure Brigitte would have been equally impressed by my toque as i am by her looks :-)






Don Dionisio -> RE: Picasso, Segovia, Serranito, Manitas (Oct. 8 2012 16:21:27)

Thank you for responding to my request. Brook Zern is a reputable
person and I'm glad to know of this website that you linked.
Thanks again.



frhout -> RE: Picasso, Segovia, Serranito, Manitas (Oct. 8 2012 16:41:14)

I saw the first video a while ago and it seems to prove that Southern French flamenco could tame bb quite effectively. As to the second, I noticed bb uses her hair for flamenco expression on two occasions, I don't recall to have seen this in other performances. Or am I mistaken?[;)]



estebanana -> RE: Picasso, Segovia, Serranito, Manitas (Oct. 9 2012 20:11:01)

Not that I want to get too deeply into it, but my old girlfriend is a very fine soprano who studied with Joaquin Nin Culmell, a composer who was De Falla's last student. Nin-Culmell taught at UC Berkeley for many years and after he retired my friend studied with him privately as his last student, eventually giving a world premiere of a song cycle he wrote. Joaquin lived in Oakland CA the last years of his life and he was largely unknown. Died 2004.

To make long story shorterer, he gave my old girlfriend the oral history that flamencos and classical musicians, visual artists mixed it up at parties in the 1920's and 30's more so than thought. That Segovia and Lorca were involved in the concurso, although he was still too young to have been there- and I doubt Segovia accompanied singers. More likely he played his classical stuff.

Anyway what got me interested is this is that Picasso actually said someone was a greater person than himself. Had Manitas been a painter Picasso would probably have had nothing good to say about him. Picasso is an odd duck, one wonders whether he grasped Stravinsky and Eric Satie when he worked with them. Picarsehole was very dismissive of Pierre Bonnard and actually painted over a Modigliani that he owned. Arrogant. The only person he really did not talk down to was Matisse, but he had to say "Matisse and _I _ are the only living painters left who understand light."

Even though Picasso, like Segovia, had a big head, I prefer Picasso to Manitas truth be told, and Bonnard and Nin Culmell even more than De Falla and Cocteau, who was mostly stoned anyway. Cocteau was a fabulous draughtsman though.

Joaquin Nin-Culmell is searchable on the internet, he is a really interesting composer should you want to check him out.



Ricardo -> RE: Picasso, Segovia, Serranito, Manitas (Oct. 9 2012 21:10:17)

CHarismatic performer. NO other reason. Once you understand what's up, it's easy to see through the chrisma and put things into perspective. Another example within flamenco world is Diego del Gastor. As an artist he had his place, but he really grabbed a certain group thanks to his charismatic character when making a juerga I think. It's funny how a certain artist can make such an impact in general despite other competent artists within a group....but I am convinced it's all about the confident delivery at the right moment.



BarkellWH -> RE: Picasso, Segovia, Serranito, Manitas (Oct. 9 2012 21:37:18)

quote:

CHarismatic performer. NO other reason. Once you understand what's up, it's easy to see through the chrisma and put things into perspective.


Manitas knew how to play an audience for sure. Paco de Malaga once told me that when Manitas was performing, he would begin by sitting still, guitar poised, and silently looking at a point at the back of the auditorium. He would then suddenly begin playing with violent passion, as if his muse had just inspired him. It was all hokey, of course, but the audience thought they were witnessing the "primitive," inspired gypsy they imagined a flamenco guitarist to be.

I actually kind of like Manitas. I am just speculating here, but I imagine he did not take his charisma and showmanship too seriously, and he probably knew he was not a first-rate flamenco guitarist. But he has a certain appeal that some con-men have, when they good-naturedly know that you can see through them. At least I would like to think of him in that way.

Cheers,

Bill



estebanana -> RE: Picasso, Segovia, Serranito, Manitas (Oct. 9 2012 21:52:05)

So Picarsehole was taken in by Mani's charisma...

I can't resist these posts about Picasso and Segovia, my internet Achilles heels.



frhout -> RE: Picasso, Segovia, Serranito, Manitas (Oct. 9 2012 21:58:29)

Delon came out from time to time to praise Manitas for his incredible and indelible contribution to flamenco. BB and Delon might be completely ignorant or just ignoring the Andalusian side of flamenco which was declared Cultural Heritage by Unesco. Manitas is 90 and doesn't play anymore, when the Time comes, I believe there would be programmes tracing his life as he is considered a patriarch, I will be even more interested to see if the southern French flamenco community will claim part of this heritage. I wish him well because he's always fun to watch.



BarkellWH -> RE: Picasso, Segovia, Serranito, Manitas (Oct. 9 2012 22:07:58)

quote:

I wish him well because he's always fun to watch.


I wish him well, too, frhout. And since he just had his 90th birthday, I will toast him tonight with a copita of Jerez seco, muy fino. He has had quite a life. I sure as hell wish I could attract the likes of BB with my toque the way he did!

Cheers,

Bill



frhout -> RE: Picasso, Segovia, Serranito, Manitas (Oct. 9 2012 22:24:18)

To be honest, I wouldn't wish to attract BB at this stage as she's more fond of animals than people from some other weird parts of the world (don't misuderstand me, I'm also an animal lover and respect human beings, whatever their creed). I'd better stop here.



frhout -> RE: Picasso, Segovia, Serranito, Manitas (Oct. 9 2012 22:28:10)

I have never listened to Diego del Gastor's music, I saw a CD somewhere before and will get one if I have the chance. Carlos Montoya managed to put me off flamenco for a while.



edguerin -> RE: Picasso, Segovia, Serranito, Manitas (Oct. 10 2012 10:00:48)

quote:

he would begin by sitting still, guitar poised, and silently looking at a point at the back of the auditorium. He would then suddenly begin playing with violent passion, as if his muse had just inspired him

Another effect at a concert back in the 70s was to have his own guitar amplified a bit more than the others with more bass. That way, when he came on with a rasgueo you had the impression that his playing was way more powerful ("gitano", "macho" etc.) than the rest.



aeolus -> RE: Picasso, Segovia, Serranito, Manitas (Oct. 10 2012 13:59:24)

quote:

Nin Culmell


Nin wrote a set of variation on a theme of Luis Milian for the Cuban Ray de la Torre. Leo Brouwere plays them here:

Also Ray plays them here:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xee6e1_rey-de-la-torre-six-variations-on-a_music

Segovia was apparently miffed that Nin didn't write anything for him and introduced Nin at one of his summer schools as the composer of those little variations and Nin replied "yes, but when Ray plays them they are great".
This related by Ray in an article in which he reminiscences about his career.
Rose Augustine related how when she had invited some members of the Jose Greco dance troupe to her home in which Segovia lived for a time and after dinner they performed with Segovia accompanying them on his guitar. Believe it not. [;)]



Morante -> RE: Picasso, Segovia, Serranito, Manitas (Oct. 10 2012 14:13:04)

"Charismatic performer. NO other reason. Once you understand what's up, it's easy to see through the chrisma and put things into perspective. Another example within flamenco world is Diego del Gastor. As an artist he had his place, but he really grabbed a certain group thanks to his charismatic character when making a juerga I think"

¡Ole tus cojones! The first time I´ve seen an "American" make an objective appraisal of Diego.

On Saturday, I am invited to a family performance of Juan Villar, with el Niño Jero. There are 2 children in the family who dance bulerías with incredible genio y compás, though still with little technique. This is charisma, and flamenco is still alive in spite of everything.



estebanana -> RE: Picasso, Segovia, Serranito, Manitas (Oct. 10 2012 18:38:23)

quote:

Segovia was apparently miffed that Nin didn't write anything for him and introduced Nin at one of his summer schools as the composer of those little variations and Nin replied "yes, but when Ray plays them they are great".


That is why I like the stories I head about Nin-Culmell, he was his own man. I he was underrated as a composer, or under-known of.

Still a doubter about Segovia doing much flamenco accompaniment of any serious variety. And Sure I listen to his work and I admire his carer, but I get sick of the way he was put on pedistal when there were others working during his time period. That is my only issue, I like a lot of his interpretations when the 19th century romantic musician in him does not sugar up the music too much. I like Fritz Kriesler too, but not 24/7.

But thanks for the Nin post.



estebanana -> RE: Picasso, Segovia, Serranito, Manitas (Oct. 10 2012 18:45:08)

quote:

¡Ole tus cojones! The first time I´ve seen an "American" make an objective appraisal of Diego.


Jesus that took a lot of cojones, my own balls are blue and dropping off just reading this.

Not.

The difference between Diego and the others is that he passed on a school of playing to mostly to Paco Del Gastor who actually did something with it. It's not so easy to dismiss Diego as a savant stuck out in the woods. He probably knew very much who he was.

The other thing is that he did play for several important singers, and he left a good body of work, falsetas, that are not super astonishing, or are they?

Diego is not dismissible even though many Americans have blind spots around what he was and did. Ask David Serva or a few of the other significant American guitarists who were around him about Diego if you want an opinion of him that is based in knowing his strengths and weaknesses in person. I could mention others.....



aeolus -> RE: Picasso, Segovia, Serranito, Manitas (Oct. 10 2012 21:29:42)

You have heard of his sister Anaïs Nin I suppose. Something of a hot tamale in those glorious years between the wars before everything went to hell.




estebanana -> RE: Picasso, Segovia, Serranito, Manitas (Oct. 10 2012 23:50:40)

Yeah, I have read Nin, I like the stories called The Delta of Venus. Which brands me as a Nin greatest hits lover.

I've been thinking this over too, I don't think Manitas or even Carlos Montoya were totally made of charisma. They are not my 'go to" players by any stretch of the imagination, but I think they merit more than getting by on sheer charisma. Diego conversation of course opens can of worms, but of the three he seems least made of charisma.

The reality is that all those guys can play and judging them by our standards today does not seem to make sense. It's a kind of revisionist judgement. Yeah sure, they could be cheesy showmen, but they all played well. In Diego's case he transmitted a whole toque to family and devoted students. In Montoya's case, well he kind of sold out to make records that had appeal to non committed afcionados, those who did not take time to cultivate flamenco knowledge very deeply. But on the other hand he did record with various singers and maybe those years were pretty damn rough in Spain, so even though I don't really like those solo recordings he made I can't condemn him for making a living playing the guitar. I think his records provided gateway to flamenco for a lot of people around the world. And in the end he made a lot of people happy who probably would not have taken the time to appreciate how Nino Ricardo, Melchor or Escudero et al, played.

I know less about Manitas and he is perhaps the showiest of those guys, but I can't in my heart put him down for that. It sounds like he acted like a gitano ambassador and what could be wrong with that? He reminds me in category of American performers who were are much personality as talent, like Jack Benny the violinist/comedian.

So I base all this on my definition of charismatic; to me charismatic means someone like Charles Manson, to use an extreme example, who being devoid of any talent whatsoever used manipulation to put himself center stage. Based on that definition I kind of feel those three fellas deserve more than making it on charisma alone.

oh and, Cheers!


[:D]



BarkellWH -> RE: Picasso, Segovia, Serranito, Manitas (Oct. 11 2012 0:10:26)

quote:

In Montoya's case, well he kind of sold out to make records that had appeal to non committed afcionados, those who did not take time to cultivate flamenco knowledge very deeply. But on the other hand he did record with various singers and maybe those years were pretty damn rough in Spain, so even though I don't really like those solo recordings he made I can't condemn him for making a living playing the guitar. I think his records provided gateway to flamenco for a lot of people around the world. And in the end he made a lot of people happy who probably would not have taken the time to appreciate how Nino Ricardo, Melchor or Escudero et al, played.


Exactly, Stephen. Carlos Montoya could play very good flamenco guitar when he wanted to; he just sort of became sloppy in his performances. He not only played with various singers, he also played for some good dancers in the early years, dancers such as la Argentinita, for example. As for providing a gateway to flamenco for a lot of people, he certainly did for me. I was 17 years old when I bought my first Montoya vinyl album, and I saw him perform in Phoenix, Arizona when I was 18. He got me hooked on flamenco, although I did not take up flamenco guitar until much later. As for Manitas, I have already indicated, in a post above, that I kind of like him. To hell with the purists. Let's just have fun and live-and-let-live.

Cheers,

Bill



aeolus -> RE: Picasso, Segovia, Serranito, Manitas (Oct. 12 2012 18:52:54)

Oh yeah...let's hear it for the little hands of silver.




z6 -> RE: Picasso, Segovia, Serranito, Manitas (Oct. 12 2012 20:37:54)

I enjoyed that. He sounds like a gifted nine-year old. If that could snag Bardot then there's hope in the world. Bardot was not sexy in her prime; there is no word, in any language, to capture her allure.

He goes on and on as well. I would have had a beamer, even if I could play that fast. I've never heard him before. He reminds of a guy I saw on Youtube who believes hmself to be 'improvising flamenco'. It's quite funny and had a lot of 'hits'. But Manitas can play.

Just goes to show.

Dammit, all I need is a puffy shirt.



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