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RE: Picasso, Segovia, Serranito, Manitas
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Ruphus
Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
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 RE: Picasso, Segovia, Serranito, Manitas (in reply to z6)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: z6
But Picasso is a little bit of a fraud for me as well. He could draw/paint okay but his true genius was as a marketing man.
Remarks like this or Stephen´s further above, remind me of still given autonomous thoughts, however scarcely they may occure.
While humanity appears perfectly concertized in standing before awkward products, absorbing pseudo intellectuals´ bunk about alleged intentions and proficiency on chimp level, simultaneously levelling down actual art of excellent skills, a small number of people is still able to distinguish demanding from undemanding craft and resourceful creation from triviality.
Though technically skilled heads above the sheer inability of later wanabees like of Warhole & co., Picasso most likely would had stuck unknown in suburbian huts without the `whatever crowning´ quality of fashionable galeries. What made him big was the simple attraction of his mannish appearance on a female galerist wallflower.
After that any old wire that you crumble and put into a socket of firewood will be declared fascinating creation and sold for cynical sums.
quote:
ORIGINAL: z6
Those little Korean girls with glued-on smiles are the saddest.
Victims of prestige hunting, brainless upcomers.
Classically rather chosing pianos and violins, it counts as très chic in Far East to present his kids as little Mozarts. Taking poor infants from an age of 3 years on and sending them on a tour de force. Aiming for admission at central European conservatories later on.
Out come mechanically hammering sportsmen who, not enough, will often times be embraced by academie´s staff who again feels tempted to feather themselves with human robots as instructor´s first semester virtuoso.
However, in my opinion Korean music mechanics shouldn´t be mixed up with Chinese guitar students of Prof. Chen, who eventhough a bit clumsy in personal presentation and technically suspiciously amazing differ from conditioned puppies sans musicality.
Ruphus
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Date Oct. 13 2012 11:03:18
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Picasso, Segovia, Serranito, Manitas (in reply to z6)
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quote:
I'm not putting him down.
You're not? Here are some of your comments quoted from your post:
"His (Manitas's) picado makes me think of the Roobarb and Custard cartoon... all jumpy and lumpy."
"It's like he's playing for his Mom and giving his best chops big licks and his Mom is washing dishes. He thinks she's not listening so he's giving her some picado then a rasguedo, then another picado. And he's playing it like he's worried he'll miss his bus."
"He sounds like his tongue should be sticking out. I wonder if he trained himself to lock his jaw when he played?"
"If I were in a restaurant and he were playing it would get on my nerves after a little while. But I get that he made gazzillions and was famous and a pussy magnet."
"Is he Mexican? I used to live in Mexico City. A barber gave me the same haircut once. My wife almost died laughing when I got home."
Not to mention your put-down of Mexicans, their barbers, and their haircuts.
If this is not putting him down, I would hate to see what you write when you are deliberately putting someone down!
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Oct. 13 2012 13:20:24
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z6
Posts: 225
Joined: Mar. 1 2011
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RE: Picasso, Segovia, Serranito, Manitas (in reply to BarkellWH)
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I didn't put Mexicans down. My haircut was my own stupid fault. His haircut reminds me of Mexico. It's reminiscence. But he meant that haircut. It was no accident. Even way back in the sixties and seventies such haircuts were unfortunate. But they're part of his uniform. The look that lanched a thousand lounge lizards.
I had a neighbour, across the road from me, when I lived in an apartment in Mexico City. He used to arrive at exactly the same time every afternoon (almost like the rain in Mexico City). He'd park his car in front of the underground garage and honk his horn continuously until his slave, who lived on the roof and was probably busy washing the s h i t off his pants in the roof wash house, would walk down five floors to open the garage doors for him, when those garage doors were no more than 12 feet away from his sorry, and gargantuan, a r s e. I used to dream of taking him out with a high-powered rifle, and hope to this day that someone with the same idea, more courage, and the ability to realize such a thing, has carried out my dream, and improved the world.
Is that what you mean by puttng Mexicans down? My building had a slave as well. She was an entirely wonderful woman. My Mexican, but distinctly 'Spanish' neighbours would watch me like I was derranged, when I would offer the common courtesy of helping her out when she needed things moved. She was a single mother who brought up a son who became a terrific young man. She is still a great friend of my wife's. Mexico is.... complex.
Have a look at Roobarb and Custard and tell me it's not the same as Manitas' picado. Man, it's kind of annoying to listen to after about three seconds. That would be my nightly limit before I first saw images of Roobarb and Custard then had to get the hell out. Jeez, Manitas, shut the fck up. I'm trying to eat here.
We are all blessed with differing and evolving/devolving tastes.
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Date Oct. 13 2012 14:30:17
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Picasso, Segovia, Serranito, Manitas (in reply to z6)
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quote:
I used to dream of taking him out with a high-powered rifle, and hope to this day that someone with the same idea, more courage, and the ability to realize such a thing, has carried out my dream, and improved the world.
???
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Oct. 13 2012 18:07:04
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Picasso, Segovia, Serranito, Manitas (in reply to z6)
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quote:
High-powered rifle is the wrong weapon, perhaps?
Seems like a rather harsh response, even for someone who annoyed you.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Oct. 13 2012 20:14:33
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Picasso, Segovia, Serranito, Manitas (in reply to Escribano)
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quote:
My wife is from D.F. of Aztec, Japanese and Andalu' blood. I first met her there.
I love Mexico, Simon. I particularly like Northern Mexico, with its corridos telling stories in ballad form. But my favorite area is around Mazatlan. Mazatlan not only has great beaches, it is a real working city and has the largest shrimp fleet in Mexico. I like it much better than the glitzy spots on the Caribbean side.
My grandfather was superintendent of the Santa Fe railroad in Northern Mexico during the revolution. When I was growing up, I remember looking at his photographs taken during the revolution, of armored trains with Federales riding in armored cars in front of the locomotive and in the rear of the train. Also, photos of rebels hanged on telegraph poles and left as a warning. He had a "Safe Conduct Pass" signed by Vestuviano Carranza, who was jockeying for power with Pancho Villa at the time in Northern Mexico. Interesting history.
Glad you enjoy Mexico, and that you found your wife there.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Oct. 13 2012 20:31:04
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estebanana
Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
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RE: Picasso, Segovia, Serranito, Manitas (in reply to BarkellWH)
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quote:
My grandfather was superintendent of the Santa Fe railroad in Northern Mexico during the revolution. When I was growing up, I remember looking at his photographs taken during the revolution, of armored trains with Federales riding in armored cars in front of the locomotive and in the rear of the train. Also, photos of rebels hanged on telegraph poles and left as a warning. He had a "Safe Conduct Pass" signed by Vestuviano Carranza, who was jockeying for power with Pancho Villa at the time in Northern Mexico. Interesting history.
I knew we had more connections Bill.
The man I studied bowmaking and other malarky with in the late 70's early 80's was Burdell Tenney. I put up a photo of him on a thread in the Luth Sec. - Well his father was a mormon who lived in Juarez and he had two wives. One the Morms who moved south of the border after the church changed the polygamy laws.
Mr. Tenney's dad had one of the first Fords and he was enlisted, or coerced, by Pancho Villa to be a wheel man in train robberies.
How about that??? For raising ya three question marks.
One of the great things about long summer afternoons in the bow shop was that I was the recipient of this oral history as Burdell told me the lore and stories of the Tex/Mex border or the 1920's.
Burdell was first a violinist a southwest landscape painter, he later became a bowmaker and an architect. I remember after I had moved to Northern CA. around 1990 he was preparing to have his first one man show. He waited until he was old to resume his painting when bow making was too difficult. He had all these memories of his childhood stored away somewhere in the large square head of his and he painted in about a year and half some sixty small glowing paintings of trains and chases and sunrises, Indian ponies, the whole thing Arizona to Tex/Mex. All the pictures were under a foot by a foot.
He lined up a show for himself at a small museum in Redlands CA where he lived. He told me this one on of my last visits to him after the show was down, that the curator was pushing to have him show with a delicate painter of fruits and still lifes of very dilettante quality. He, and I can clearly see him doing this in my mind, bore down on the receiver and told the curator in no uncertain terms would he be sharing the stage with such a painter. His exact words were "I am 82 years old, I need a one man show. I have waited for this for 65 years."
He got his one man show. He gave me one of the oil sketches that never got fully developed into a complete painting. The rest of them sold out.
Don't ever give up your muse. And I expect a complete reply with Santa Fe, my favorite railroad, details.
_____________________________
https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
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Date Oct. 13 2012 22:49:24
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estebanana
Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
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RE: Picasso, Segovia, Serranito, Manitas (in reply to Ruphus)
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quote:
Though technically skilled heads above the sheer inability of later wanabees like of Warhole & co., Picasso most likely would had stuck unknown in suburbian huts without the `whatever crowning´ quality of fashionable galeries. What made him big was the simple attraction of his mannish appearance on a female galerist wallflower.
I agree with this halfway. Not for Picarsehole. Even though I like to call him Picarsehole, a name given him by a character in a John Fowles novel series, The Ebony Tower I think he was not made by wallflower femmie gallery haunting cupcakes.
Picarsehole was made by a chunky, brilliant lesbian named Gertrude who was born in the city I live in. Picaraesquehole as he was he was a super important visual innovator. Cubism led to the way camoflage was developed to disguise aircraft, trucks ships during WW1- among other things. Things we see around us everyday in the art and non art world have been influenced obliquely by artists like Pickyhole.
Warhole, that was good Rufus. I have been meaning to ask if you think Bonnard is a degenerate? I think he might bridge the gap between 19th century romantic realism and abstract malarky for you. He has figurative images, readable realist compositions, but pinned down by amazing, but naturally implausible color.
What is it that you don't trust about modern art? Beside the underlying idea that someone might be pulling your leg? What about beauty? Can Bonnard be beautiful and unreal at the same time? Maybe some Vuillard?
_____________________________
https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
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Date Oct. 14 2012 3:29:58
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Ruphus
Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
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RE: Picasso, Segovia, Serranito, Manitas (in reply to estebanana)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: estebanana
Cubism led to the way camoflage was developed to disguise aircraft, trucks ships during WW1- among other things.
Very interesting bit of info!
quote:
ORIGINAL: estebanana
Warhole, that was good Rufus.
DER SPIEGEL in an long ago article about Warholes vita described how WH´s mentor ( in a Cold War situation when awkwards were purposively made "artist" just to counter Soviet Realism ) gave him a polaroid camera and instructed him to firmly keep shut, for his debility bordering intellect. WH did as requested and in consequence was ranked mystically intellectual in a hystrical scene pampered with hundreds of millions of dollars drained off from the Marshall Plan by the CIA. ( Equalling what would be billions funds today.)
quote:
ORIGINAL: estebanana
I have been meaning to ask if you think Bonnard is a degenerate?
I had to google him and Vuillard up.
No; why degenerated?
Not too versed lines, proportions and perspectives, as is with laymen drawings.
The colours are vivid and eye catching, but not effectively enough composed to make for a special criterion alone.
quote:
ORIGINAL: estebanana
What is it that you don't trust about modern art?
Well observed. Walking the Guggenheim in the early eighties did upset me a lot. ( As did any modern crap exhibition.)
American Natives have no special word for art. Artwork is common to them. Everyone in the community engages in drawing, sculpturing, singing and dancing as a kid, sustaining the genetical predisposition provided for exactly these conducts with human beings.
Like with the feature of swimming ability, these very talents only get lost when wasted ( and possibly be arduously `recovered´ later on ).
Which is how it commonly goes regarding creative skills in the great civilisations.
- And how "art" stands for a special mastery and achievement in our cultures.
I say:
Either we do like the Indians, which will provide rather skilled craft and visioning anyway.
Or we keep on elevating the term, which again preconditions retracable proficiency in the same time.
And why do I eye this matter so seriously?
#
Art has anthropologically awlays been an informing subject. Be it through conveyed contents or through demonstration of honed depicting ability.
#
Art shouldn´t serve as demonstrative disdain over the people by trading creative disability at cynical pecuniary proportions that outdo earnings of hard working fellow men.
#
Any market for pseudo achievement will harm actual artists´ niche; reducing artist´s potential recognition and outcome.
quote:
ORIGINAL: estebanana
What about beauty? Can Bonnard be beautiful and unreal at the same time? Maybe some Vuillard?
Sure.
My ol´art teacher summrized the ingredients of art as two: Crafting proficiency and idea.
These mustn´t be throughout in balance. The minute of one of the two reaching exceptional level it can suffice to overcome not so outstanding presence of the other.
But special, moving, impressive, inspiring it should be at least. - To the discriminating eye. - Which again would be who engaged in the corresponding subject before on advanced level, hence knowing what retracable crafting skills the object takes / be familiar with ( foregone) contents to recognize a creative idea.
Ruphus
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Date Oct. 14 2012 9:01:33
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Richard Jernigan
Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
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RE: Picasso, Segovia, Serranito, Manitas (in reply to z6)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: z6
He was treating a human being worse than bad men treat dogs, every single day. Where there was no need. Where he only had to be just a little human to change someone's life.
High-powered rifle is much better than he deserved.
First let me say that I love Mexico and Mexican people. Some of my most wonderful experiences, and one of the great loves of my life occurred in that paradoxical country.
Decades after the untimely death of my Spanish/Mexican fiancee, my Japanese girlfriend and I were eating in a large Japanese restaurant in Acapulco. She said it was spookily authentic--could have been in Tokyo. There was only one other party. The six or eight people were very well dressed, spoke impeccable Spanish, and were fair skinned, some blond or red haired.
My girlfriend, fluent in Spanish, said, "Richard, who are those people?"
"They are the scum of the earth," I replied.
"What? They speak perfect Spanish, they have nice clothes, expensive jewelry..."
"They are the pure-blooded descendants of the conquistadores. Watch how they treat the help."
After several more minutes of observation, she said, "I see what you mean."
On the other hand, at Chiang Mai in Thailand I met a Mexican physician. He was married to a vice president of Republic National Bank, and had a prosperous practice in Manhattan. After we got better acquainted, he mentioned that he had grown up in el primer cuadro of Mexico City, and attended the Preparatoria. The back of his grandparents' house had a view of the Zocalo, the immense main square of the city.
Gustavo was the soul of courtesy and friendliness, treating the staff of every place we visited with kindness and generosity. His American wife was a bit more demanding.
RNJ
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Date Oct. 14 2012 17:41:13
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Picasso, Segovia, Serranito, Manitas (in reply to Richard Jernigan)
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quote:
What? They speak perfect Spanish, they have nice clothes, expensive jewelry..."
"They are the pure-blooded descendants of the conquistadores. Watch how they treat the help."
And yet, they are all Mexicans, both the pure descendants of the Spanish and the (presumably) Mestizo help. Just as were Z6's examples of the wealthy guy in the car who was 12 feet from the garage door but made his servant come down to open the door. With exceptions, I have found that in Latin America, Asia, and many other parts of the world, the upper classes treat their own lower socio-economic class citizens with far greater contempt and lack of dignity than the those in North America (the U.S. and Canada) and Europe treat theirs. There are exceptions in both cases, but I think that in North America and Europe, the idea of treating people with dignity, regardless of social status, has become much more ingrained in the social fabric.
And the above comment just refers to treating people with dignity. What is much worse, and far more cruel, is human trafficking, both for purposes of working in sweatshops and prostitution. For the most part, those engaged in human trafficking are of the same ethnic background and nationality as those whom they traffic. A few years ago, a case broke open of a sweatshop in Los Angeles making clothing where Thai women were kept as virtual slaves working almost around the clock. The owner was a Thai woman. Likewise, the "Snakeheads" of Fujian Province in China arrange to smuggle poor Chinese into the U.S. for kitchen help in restaurants and prostitution in New York. The New York side that receives them are all Chinese. Same with those who smuggle in Koreans, mainly women.
The above observations are not meant to whitewash the history of Anglo-North American-European exploitation and cruel treatment of others. Nevertheless, my personal experience living and working in other countries, as well as report after report in the media over the years, suggests to me that today the exploitation and cruel treatment of poor Latin Americans, Asians, and others is largely perpetrated by members of their own ethnic group and nationality.
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Oct. 14 2012 21:22:05
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z6
Posts: 225
Joined: Mar. 1 2011
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RE: Picasso, Segovia, Serranito, Manitas (in reply to BarkellWH)
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Barkell, you're probably spot on about the ethnic group thing but, from what I've seen, a perceived ethnic 'difference' seems to take it more easily to a different level.
Indeed, in Mexico, it is a perceived ethnic difference that makes thoughtless cruelty socially acceptable so fast, without so many impediments. Yes, people are people, this is not a race or ethnic thing for sure, it's a species-wide phenomenon, as is kindness. But a short neck, or black hair or eyes, or a dark skin seems to give more license, a 'perceived shared' difference at least.
I once met an Irish protestant that not only hated catholics, he felt it his duty to make it his life's work to inform all and sundry of his view. When I asked him how he could tell the difference between a catholic and a protestant, he told me 'they' had different ears. He was vague when I asked him to define different.
So, in a country with no black people, or indiginous people, no muslims, no jews, no Thais or Chinese. No people that look 'different' at all, every one as white as a sheet, only the odd ginger adding a little colour, they can simply create a physical difference and tacitly agree that it exists, and they're all Christians let's not forget. God-fearing to a man. Again, a very friendly place but a place where violence can quickly ensue at cultural crossroads (especially when drunk in the pub).
Richard, I enjoyed your story. I wrote a reply but I'm a complete dimwit and lost it.
Ruphus, you put me in mind of Tom Wolf's Painted Word.
Estebanana: Camouflage? That is cool. Luckily, nobody actually asked him to design camouflage though. Remember, he thought he was creating a painting or a style of painting. God knows, he spent long enough trying to 'find' styles. (I always wonder what poor bastrd he stole cubism from, or is that known art history). His camouflage might have been the camouflage equivalent of fishbones on a plate. When I hear such things, and they are interesting, I am reminded of people telling me that Hendrix could play the guitar with his d i c k.
Ya reckon Pablo called up the army and asked them to come look at his camouflage designs?
I never liked Picasso (I don't hate his output either) but didn't realise he was a fraud until I visited a gallery in Barcelona that has lots of his 'early stuff, man'. Good for him, but he was a kid-on merchant. Maybe the best. I hear the designs he drew on his underwear were used in the design of the new Cray Supercomputer? He was a genius. Did I tell you about what I heard Hendrix could do?
My guess is that the wife of some general first suggested the application, a bunch of dimwit generals then toyed with the idea until a scientist noticed it was worth a go; and added it to the not insignificant steps they had already taken in camouflage technology since the Scots painted their bums blue and wondered why they lost*.
They could also use Picasso's idea when they get round to teleportation. They can break up our bodies, just like a cubist painting, and reassemble them in The Andromeda galaxy. How much for that napkin he wiped his nose with?
*This only happns in movies, by the way.
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Date Oct. 14 2012 22:50:40
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estebanana
Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
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RE: Picasso, Segovia, Serranito, Manitas (in reply to z6)
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quote:
Camouflage? That is cool. Luckily, nobody actually asked him to design camouflage though. Remember, he thought he was creating a painting or a style of painting. God knows, he spent long enough trying to 'find' styles. (I always wonder what poor bastrd he stole cubism from, or is that known art history). His camouflage might have been the camouflage equivalent of fishbones on a plate. When I hear such things, and they are interesting, I am reminded of people telling me that Hendrix could play the guitar with his d i c k.
Oh boy...
He stole Cubism from Cezanne, and then pushed it a bit more.
The idea behind the first round of cubism was that you could view an object from more than one point of observation and that because of this you could not know the reality of that object from one point of view. So what Braque and Picarseole did was make pictures which showed the object from multiple points at the same time.
They accepted that this would create a fractured picture plane showing not an object as we think we see it, but a faceted construction of the whole object in shallow space. Cezanne was getting at the same thing late in life in his landscape paintings. Cezanne's work was becoming or became not a realistic depiction of nature, but a language of form that abstracted nature and reassembled it. What drove Cezanne was his early perception of the nature of seeing, not being able to see an object from all sides, (well it's slightly more complicated but for sake of explaining here I'll keep it basic) that made him paint fractured space in his still life pictures.
The rifts in space that Cezanne perceived were taken up by Picasso and Braque a few years later...Cezanne dies around 1906 and a big show of his late work was seen by Picasso and Braque, and they push that idea form Cezanne it as far as they can. The result was cubism.
By about 1910 the first wave of cubism was in full swing and artists like the Spaniard Juan Gris took it up. Juan Gris' cubist pictures are often much better than the ones by P&B. About this time cubism was being seen in galleries in Paris and written about in progressive visual art magazines. The fracturing of space in the shallow picture plane of early of the analytic cubist pictures was seen by many contemporary graphic and industrial designers as well as photographers. Those designers who worked out the camouflage patterning were aware of the way space is faceted in cubist painting and how those facets beak up the contour lines of an object.
Camouflage works because it displaces the edges of 3 dimensional forms when you view them. It creates a field of facets of shallow space that travel to the edge of the real painted object, say a tank or truck, and it breaks up the edge in relation to the background the object is seen against. That was one of the objectives of cubist painting, only in 2 dimensional space. Where else in the visual lexicon just prior to WW1 were examples of this type of visual phenomena?
_____________________________
https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
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Date Oct. 14 2012 23:50:54
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Ruphus
Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
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RE: Picasso, Segovia, Serranito, Manitas (in reply to aeolus)
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Really interesting stuff!
And I even like the portrait quite some. Can´t see how it could be representing different visual angles, but the resolution, relief effect and crafting skills alone certainly are something to the eye.
-
Z6 ( your name reminds me of one of my former motor bikes ),
The point I have taken from studies on racism is that basically the phenomenon is derived from inferiourity complex. Appealing to who does not feel sufficient as is.
Which again could explain why none of us is ever completely free from separating / uniting tendencies ( racism ). Difference only being of what degree.
The less self-confidence given in one´s up-bringing, the more segregation<->identification there will be sought after. Your applauded quarters / village, province, national etc. team only serves the separation for an "us", delivering the weak individual´s seeked superiourity.
In an experiment in which documentary films about black African families were shown to rednecks, showed how the spectators would welcome separating details and on the contrary be feeling provoked by similarities. Discovering that the African family man would be coming home just like his white counter, awaited by a dish washing wife and home work doing kids etc. angered the racist observers.
For them it would have been alright so to say to rather see the guy with a bone stuck through his sides of the nose, entering his hut tenderloined, with cannibal prey.
Unlike of what one might expect, racism appears to be provoked by similarities of the stranger.
Don´t know whether this detail is of any value. Just thought to throw it in for infotainment.
Ruphus
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Date Oct. 15 2012 10:05:25
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Never a dull moment. 
