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RE: Black Hole eats sun
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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 RE: Black Hole eats sun (in reply to mottallica)
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quote:
you are correct , but there is still no agreement around the american society which is the valid one. that is why both should be taught so children know both and someday decide for themselves.
While there is a significant minority of Americans who believe in creationism and reject evolution and its driving force natural selection, the worldwide scientific community is almost unanimous in its acceptance of the theory of evolution, and it has been for nearly a century. As noted earlier, all the evidence supports the theory of evolution. There is no scientific evidence at all that supports the ideas held by the creationists, such as the earth being 6,000 to 10,000 years old. In my opinion, democracy does not require one to passively accept a bogus idea like creationism just because a significant minority of the electorate believe in it.
To say that "both should be taught so children know both and someday decide for themselves" implies that you think the theory of evolution and creationism are equally valid concepts. That simply is not true. In fields such as biology and anthropology, children should be taught what is scientifically valid, not some religiously-inspired nonsense that we know to be false. Do you really want children to grow up believing the earth is 6,000 to 10,000 years old? I agree that democratically-elected school boards can make decisions about teaching creationism and, unfortunately, it must be accepted. But it need not be accepted with passive resignation. In my opinion, that is reason enough for rational individuals to run for a place on those school boards, in order to overturn such decisions and place education on a rational footing.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date May 23 2012 22:15:59
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Black Hole eats sun (in reply to Ruphus)
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quote:
The term fascism stems from the latin word "fagi" which means whip, not "prosperity".
Ruphus,
The term fascism is derived from the latin word "fasces." The fasces consisted of a bundle of rods tied around an axe, and the Romans used the fasces as a symbol of authority. Mussolini adopted the term for his movement.
I don't know if Deniz purposely did not mention communism and socialism when he stated that the goal of democracy and fascism is to increase the nation's wealth. But let's be clear that communism and socialism are every bit as concerned with increasing the wealth of the nation (the Soviet Union and all other former communist states) or the wealth of the leadership (North Korea). At times the inefficiency of the system hinders their accumulation of wealth (Cuba and North Korea), but the goal is still there.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date May 24 2012 14:30:45
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Florian
Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia
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RE: Black Hole eats sun (in reply to mottallica)
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quote:
you remember you're talking to a jew here right?ofc it shouldn't be accepted
the fact is that the country became nazi because that was the law - that is what most people wanted - that is why it became a nazi country weather it's ok or not
i always thought that too, that its hard pretending like they didn't see or know or playing dumb.... but the reason they become Nazis was more to do with fear, propaganda, political swindling and manipulation, but mostly FEAR...there was no in between , you were either with them or in in TROUBLE, as much as we would all like to think we would all be like John Wayne under those circumstances our most basic instinct is to try and survive, at any cost...watch "The Rise and Fall of evil" documentary, from the perspective of German people ...made from thousands of letters written to own family members, in their own words so theres no acting for tv, they never thought anyone else other then the person they wrote to would ever see that letter...it paints a more accurate picture of German mentality back then, I know i wanted to learn HOW ? why?... how on earth could a whole country...this many people allow it, what must have been the thinking ? trying to understand the mentality.... ...i know you are a jew and i couldn't possibly understand the scar something like that has left on your race...I would forever be angry and there are of course many many people whos hands ARE dirty
but i do come from a communist dictator country and i do understand all about fear and manipulation, where you are afraid to disagree in public with any decision your government has made or you and your family simply dispear....in times like this ...a countries government behavior dosent necessarily represent the people ...is fear reason enough ?...if you believe its real ...theres no difference between wrongly thinking you are going to be killed and rightly thinking you are going to be killed, you will do anything you can to survive in both cases...they both just as real in your mind...and of course in many cases ...it wasent just physiological it was real...in both Romania and Germany...
Case n point... Jews that helped the Germans in the concentration camps by walking new arrivals into the "showers" and assuring and calming them....to survive just one more day,......its impossible to say it now out of the comfort of our warm home ...no not me...its impossible to know....and if you lived in a democratic country all your life, never lived under a dictator....perhaps impossible to comprehend ...i know theres a couple of people here that KNOW what i am talking about...in the movies we are all John Wayne
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Date May 24 2012 21:45:09
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Black Hole eats sun (in reply to mottallica)
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Mottallica,
You have demonstrated that you are a real gentleman with ideas, and I think you are an asset to the Foro. Don't let your rusty English, and the fact that we might disagree, stop you from expressing yourself on flamenco, science, politics, or any other topic. We disagree with each other all the time on the Foro. As long as it is done in a civilized manner, we are all better off for having been exposed to ideas different from our own.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date May 24 2012 21:55:17
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Black Hole eats sun (in reply to mezzo)
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quote:
But of course Bill, we know who are the bad boys! na?
Exactly, Mezzo. The "bad boys" were on the extreme left and the extreme right. The Weimar Republic was very weak and could not maintain itself against the Nazis. The Brown Shirts were Hitler's creation to brutally squelch any opposition, whether centrist or leftist. The communists in Weimar, the most prominent of whom were Karl Liebknect and Rosa Luxembourg, did not have the following or the resources to match the extreme right, and they were eliminated. That the communists were eliminated, however, does not mean that they were morally superior or more principled than the extreme right. Had the situation been reversed, and had the communists eliminated the right, you can bet that they would have been just as authoritarian as the right, and they would have eliminated anyone they perceived as an opponent. We saw the result of communist victories in the USSR and Eastern Europe.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date May 24 2012 23:05:00
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mottallica
Posts: 177
Joined: Mar. 25 2012
From: Israel
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RE: Black Hole eats sun (in reply to BarkellWH)
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quote:
i always thought that too, that its hard pretending like they didn't see or know or playing dumb.... but the reason they become Nazis was more to do with fear, propaganda, political swindling and manipulation, but mostly FEAR..
florian
you forget that hitler was elected domocratically and he's hatred tawards jew ( and gypsy too btw) was known to all - his race theory was known to all when he ran for office
quote:
You have demonstrated that you are a real gentleman with ideas, and I think you are an asset to the Foro. Don't let your rusty English, and the fact that we might disagree, stop you from expressing yourself on flamenco, science, politics, or any other topic. We disagree with each other all the time on the Foro. As long as it is done in a civilized manner, we are all better off for having been exposed to ideas different from our own.
thanks barkellwh
i'm not deterred from an argument and it's true what you say
i just noticed that the approach towards creationism in the states is very different than here and it's not just about not agreeing - it's beyond my lenguistic skills and a lot of cultural differences
apparently the 7 day idea is looked upon very diffidently in judism then in christianity. btw according to creationism the world is exactly 5772 years old and not 6000-10000 - i know because the jewish calendar works in years according to creationism. the fact that creationism believers in the us say it's 6000-10000 years old just shows to me the difference in thought - it looks to me they are looking at things the way i hate - they just take what the minister say (or the rabbi say with us jews) and take it as a fact with out trying to understand what it means - most of the time , not really understanding what he meant
to Jewish people the old testament is our tradition so we know a more about it . nothing to do with believing or not - so for me to clear my thoughts will be very very long and difficult to do on paper
another thing is i still have a lot of studying to do before i can fully understand and know all of you guys' arguments since you say it as facts to you - to me - some i know , some i don't and understanding them fro a forum debate is hard , especially with the linguistic barrier.
i'd love to talk to anyone here on a chat or Skype - where things are more immediate and it's easier to communicate and explain more about all of which i meant when i spoke about the 7 day metaphor idea because i saw most of you didn't get my point - might be me ,might be the different way we see things culturally
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Date May 24 2012 23:07:14
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Black Hole eats sun (in reply to mezzo)
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quote:
I'm not as manichean as you Bill. Don't worry.
"Exactly, Mezzo. The "bad boys" were on the extreme left and the extreme right. The Weimar Republic was very weak and could not maintain itself against the Nazis. The Brown Shirts were Hitler's creation to brutally squelch any opposition, whether centrist or leftist."
"I don't disagree with your description of capitalists in Weimar Germany, Mezzo."
You will recall the above-cited quotes, condemning both the right and the left, were from my recent posts in our exchange, Mezzo. I have not seen anything in your posts that condemn both the right and the left. I have seen your condemnation of capitalists, but not a word condemning the left or the communists. I think it is clear which one of us is a Manichean, Mezzo.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date May 25 2012 1:11:53
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estebanana
Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
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RE: Black Hole eats sun (in reply to estebanana)
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quote:
I don't disagree with your description of capitalists in Weimar Germany, Mezzo."
George Grosz - Toads of Property - Weimar artist known for satirizing the greedy bastards.
Bastards are bastards, commie or capitalists. There were also some good idealistic commies who suffered through the brutal repressions, but never had a voice. All the bastards use fear and a few artists or individuals make statements to ridicule them and call them out. Everything that has happened from that time that is horrible is done. Why all the Monday morning quarterbacking about the Nazis? Jesus we all read the history books, we know it was complex and laden with many layers of grey; many untold stories about resistors probably still exist that we'll never know.
How about what was created out of the horror and through it, that has lived on and made some sense? Rather than bicker about Nazis how about Olivier Messiaen's music written in a concentration camp? Grosz' acidic drawn commentaries on how fear operates on a society? Shostokovich's sarcastic musiccal inside jokes about the Stalin era.
It's a given those bastards went on bastarding, and nothing was light an dark or black and white, pure evil, pure good, because everyone lived in a state of paranoia and fear of the bastards. Disgusting, but not mind blowing, not a surprise. What is totally amazing, and act of bravery is the way musicians, composers, visual artists, writers reacted and worked through it.
Rehashing the bastards is boring the **** out of me. I'll start posting more Wayne's World vids or Worse Cuttie Kitten Videos if you persists in this folly and continue this protracted bicker fest !
   
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Date May 25 2012 3:34:07
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