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RE: Black Hole eats sun
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Florian
Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia
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 RE: Black Hole eats sun (in reply to odinz)
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quote:
One of the things I have a problem with is that people can believe in afterlife, and in most religions you have to do certain things to get the good afterlife, or else it is an eternity of torture.
and this is the whole base and reason people find comfort in religion...kind of like bedtime stories for adults, it is so contradictory and has so many holes and goes so against itself and what it preaches that it could have only been written and thought up by a man (of those days)... who wanted to impose his way of whats proper on the rest of the world....i bet you if Television would have been invented in those days religion never would have taken off..."- il go with this guy...hes giving away free food and wine"
Its a shame i wasent around ...I would have made a lot more things i didn't like or understand a sin against god too not just the gays and abortion..jk.)
(if you are religious please don't be offended by my statement, it is not a personal attack on you...its just what I believe...after all.... it is me who will burn in hell right 
don't get me wrong...as bedtime stories theres some very nice messages in it, all that about helping others, be good to your neighbors...(unless they gay or of a different religion or don't believe in god) etc...that part of it is nice ......is just the part that teaches to judge and exclude those that are different i have a problem with
the part where you can do good your whole life and help people but if u refuse to believe in god..."Burn in hell for all eternity"
be a serial killer, murder...50 people...be sorry...say 10 hail marries..your good to go or burn a couple of million for not believing in him...that's ok
I know that i don't know everything out there...but i know/believe that religion all of it as we know it/ god's image, his rules...was written and made up by a guy just like you and me...actually a little less intelligent and a lot more self righteous (not his fault it was just those days) cause at least today we would know how to piece it together a little better so it wouldn't have so many contradictions and holes and wouldn't be so politically incorrect....and i would get some women advisers so it wouldn't be so obvious I was a simple minded man or a group of men just writing down what i want and consider women to be either cursed, canning or not as important......that's what makes this even sadder...WOMEN who actually buy this story
Edit
...Sorry  ...
as you can see i got issues with religion and god lol (makes it interesting cause my girlfriend has be brought up to be religious...whats even more interesting is that shes a quarter aboriginal and her religion is Christianity.....i tease her all the time...but shes hot...what can i do...there is times when i wanna grab her by the shoulders and strongly shake her)....
the catholic church amongst others was like Hitler x 30,... 20 holocausts...yet ...they still stand...
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Date May 18 2012 6:34:45
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Ruphus
Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
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RE: Black Hole eats sun (in reply to Ricardo)
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It is alway a pleasure discussing with you guys. :O)
-
The items mentioned are all part of incongruent methodics that support and maintain economical dissimilarity and injust.
The background was already economical in cave men times, when single individuals returning from the frightening pitch-dark night of thunderstrom might have taken advantage of their heroic appearance, weaving a story of how they traded exemption for the tribe by negotiating with the mighty orgess that was throwing those thunderbolts and squalls.
Embraced by gullible mates they will have progressively expanded the myth, establishing their right to stay at home for to procede rituals to allegedly keep orgesses favourable and to ask for protection of those going out for hunting and collecting ressource.
That way they enabled themselves to steer away from daily hazzles and the considerable risk of being injured or killed on excursion; staying at the cave chilling, eating others produce and beguiling female consorts of the ones en route.
Later, on settling and first steady camps they would expand their exploitation and refine the mythology which meanwhile included them as legates of the supernatural. And when the first kingdoms came into place religions were founded, tailored to threatening potential rivals and insurgents with agony if they ever dared to question the god sent sovereign and the mythology altogether.
And in respect of the ancient thread of being left alone by their mistresses fierce moralistics were mended, so that however ugly and odious they would become, the female mates be forced staying at exclusive disposal.
This is basically what methodical mystics are about, notwithstanding some obligatory figleafs of ethical truisms added over time to disguise the recipe, producing the contradiction and cant typical to these works.
Over past centuries the methods of brainwash have been significantly refined further to balance the common rise of intellect, and beyound that.
With broad acceptance of clumsy works as a speciality of art presenting only a minor example of the honed instigation and manipulation.
For who is interested in how such can come about, here an old reference of mine:
quote:
http://web2.uwindsor.ca/flipside/vol3/mar00/00mr29b.htm quote:
Traveling first class all the way, the C.I.A. and its counterparts in other Western European nations sponsored art exhibitions, intellectual conferences, concerts and magazines to press their larger anti-Soviet agenda. Ms. Stonor Saunders provides ample evidence, for example, that the editors at Encounter and other agency-sponsored magazines were ordered not to publish articles directly critical of Washington's foreign policy. She also shows how the C.I.A. bankrolled some of the earliest exhibitions of Abstract Expressionist painting outside of the United States to counter the Socialist Realism being advanced by Moscow.
...
The cultural cold war began in postwar Europe, with the fraying of the wartime alliance between Washington and Moscow. Officials in the West believed they had to counter Soviet propaganda and undermine the wide sympathy for Communism in France and Italy.
An odd alliance was struck between the C.I.A. leaders, most of them wealthy Ivy League veterans of the wartime Office of Strategic Services and a corps of largely Jewish ex-Communists who had broken with Moscow to become virulently anti-Communist. Acting as intermediaries between the agency and the intellectual community were three colorful agents who included Vladimir Nabokov's much less talented cousin, Nicholas, a composer.
The C.I.A. recognized from the beginning that it could not openly sponsor artists and intellectuals in Europe because there was so much anti-American feeling there. Instead, it decided to woo intellectuals out of the Soviet orbit by secretly promoting a non-Communist left of democratic socialists disillusioned with Moscow.
Ms. Stonor Saunders describes how the C.I.A. cleverly skimmed hundreds of millions of dollars from the Marshall Plan to finance its activities, funneling the money through fake philanthropies it created or real ones like the Ford Foundation.
"We couldn't spend it all," Gilbert Greenway, a former C.I.A. agent, recalled. "There were no limits, and nobody had to account for it. It was amazing."
When some of the C.I.A.'s activities were exposed in the late 1960's, many artists and intellectuals claimed ignorance. But Ms. Stonor Saunders makes a strong case that several people, including the philosopher Isaiah Berlin and the poet Stephen Spender, who was co-editor of Encounter, knew about the C.I.A.'s role.
"She has made it very difficult now to deny that some of these things happened," said Norman Birnbaum, a professor at the Georgetown University Law School who was a university professor in Europe in the 1950's and early 1960's. "And she has placed a lot of people living and dead in embarrassing situations."
Still unresolved is what impact the campaign had and whether it was worth it. Some of the participants, like Arthur M. Schlesinger Jr., who was in the O.S.S. and knew about some of the C.I.A.'s cultural activities, argue that the agency's role was benign, even necessary. Compared with the coups the C.I.A. sponsored in Guatemala, Iran and elsewhere, he said, its support of the arts was some of its best work. "It enabled people to publish what they already believed," he added. "It didn't change anyone's course of action or thought."
But Diana Josselson, whose husband, Michael, ran the Congress for Cultural Freedom, told Ms. Stonor Saunders that there were real human costs among those around the world who innocently cooperated with the agency's front organizations only to be tarred with a C.I.A. affiliation when the truth came out. The author and other critics argue that by using government money covertly to promote such American ideals as democracy and freedom of expression, the agency ultimately stepped on its own message.
"Obviously it was an error, and a rather serious error, to allow intellectuals to be subsidized by the government," said Alan Brinkley, a history professor at Columbia University. "And when it was revealed, it did undermine their credibility seriously."
What is left out in this discription of the New York Times is how preferably and explicitely untalented people were selected who had never thought of artwork before, but were merely lucky to be familiar or related with corresponding CIA agents and from there came to a living as millionaires without qualification of any sort.
If you research you will find the info about it.
All their works are high price "art" today and substantially shaped what is being modern art since, which means actually anything, nothing, but merely corresponding people at hand to sell and generate brands. TOTALLY independendly of performance.
Many of thelike "artists" finally went to the utmost and provoked reveal of the granted selling principle and cynism with anything from greased bathtubs to holes in the ground, but the image industry reached indestructibility and went on inflating the conception of artistry to infinity.
Meanwhile the unskilled market fraction outstripped the classical works in pricing.
Ruphus
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Date May 18 2012 10:15:17
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odinz
Posts: 407
Joined: May 26 2010
From: Sarpsborg,Norway
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RE: Black Hole eats sun (in reply to Florian)
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quote:
...Sorry ...
as you can see i got issues with religion and god lol (makes it interesting cause my girlfriend has be brought up to be religious...whats even more interesting is that shes a quarter aboriginal and her religion is Christianity.....i tease her all the time...but shes hot...what can i do...there is times when i wanna grab her by the shoulders and strongly shake her)....
the catholic church amongst others was like Hitler x 30,... 20 holocausts...yet ...they still stand...
Problem with religion? Of course, it is completely hillarious.
As you said, it is sort of like bedtime stories, but these bedtime stories for adults make people do horrible things in the name of whatever deity they worship.
I have read the major religious books that people claim are so good and have a good message, but it says a whole lot of bad things too:
Stoning of women is okay if she disobeys her father or husband, it is allowed to marry children, if a women was raped and the and she was not engaged she is forced to marry her rapist "If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her"
If a man rapes a woman who is engaged, both the victim and the rapist should be stoned to death, Moses commands that sourcerers should not be allowed to live, people of other faith should be slaughtered down, every woman, man, child, infant and animal.
There is genital mutilation of infants, violence against homosexual people is okay, it is okay to stone people who break the commandments etc..
Also we know that the God of the Abrahamic religions is based upon older gods, a warrior god among them.
Jesus stories are very simmilar to older stories from Egypt and India etc.
There is no proof for God or gods, unless you are Ray comfort that is.
Everything we have done scientifically seems to destroy some aspect of the holy books, every time something new and groundbreaking is discovered the religion gets watered down.
So called spiritual healers and psychics are also starting to become a big problem, they take advantage of the desperate, who find comfort.
I don't think there is anything wrong with comfort, but to become entrapped in a world of lies is very bad, especially when people take advantage of you.
Astrology is a fancy word for stupid.
There is no proof for any of this, until there is some solid proof I think that believing in what is fairy tales and child fantasy is to lower oneself into the dirt.
I also have a problem with religion, it has persecuted my ancestors as sourcerers and many have been killed during the second world war.
Many people do not see how serious the evils of religion, faith or whatever really are.
I am sorry if I offend anyone who believes in these things.
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Date May 18 2012 10:45:09
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estebanana
Posts: 9413
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
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RE: Black Hole eats sun (in reply to Ricardo)
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...
I want 1100.00 for mine.
( notice they are bigger and there are three of them)
Now that this thread is total free fall.......I think the CIA connection with AbEx painters is a cock and bull story cooked up by some academic degenerate who needed a doctoral dissertation topic.
Total rubbish. It was dealers like Leo Castelli and Martha Jackson and collectors like Peggy Guggenheim et al in N.Y. in the 40's and 50's that put those painters on the map. Russian social realism was never threat to any thing, except to make your eyes sore.
The whole concept that the "heroic" post WWII painting in America was a nationalistic movement is utter bullcrap. This notion was an after the fact invention of self important art historians.
Not to mention that to this day when people look at a De Kooning they don't really get what is going on past a surface level is not because the art is messy, unorganized, bad or a trick foisted upon them by a wry and vindictive avant garde'. The fact is that the visual acuity of most people is not up to or open enough to see much of anything, especially high quality abstract art. Abstract painting is like flamenco, you can get with it right away because it is beautiful and accessible, you can leave it at that. Or you can delve into it and see deeper or hear deeper. Those who choose to go further hear a see more because they are being rigorous with them selves about perception and how to cultivate their listenership or viewership.
People to hear more or see more do that because they worked at it, like lifting weights for the senses. people who make films, take photographs, painting drawings, play music, are cultivating a deeper understanding of those forms. If you blame the artists for what they are doing because you can't understand it, it means you may have to put yourself out a little more, open yourself up a little more and work harder at your level of perception of the art in the world around you.
Abstract painting is not a joke being perpetrated on you by some tricksters. It is a formal and oft times non formal visual language. If you can't speak and see the language don't blame or scape goat the artists, work harder at learning to see more. I know lot about visual art I'd be happy to steer anyone to the pictures a writings that will show the language.
This is not a rant, just me saying I'm tired of the same old story over and over. Learn to see or hear better before you dismiss something that other people know to be true works of art or music.
_____________________________
https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
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Date May 18 2012 18:46:11
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3464
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Black Hole eats sun (in reply to Florian)
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quote:
i am surprised by how many millions/billions still follow the bible in this day and age and willingly chose to tie their eyes
And let's not leave out the one billion Muslims who believe every word in the Qur'an is the word of God, handed to Muhammad by the Angel Gabriel. And the followers of the Torah, who believe God created a "chosen people." And the Hindus, with their Shiva, Ganesha, and a host of others. And the Buddhists, Taoists, and others, with their host of otherworldly beliefs and myths. It is not just Christianity, my friends. The myths inherent in all religions are all around us with fervent believers. So much for the rational mind.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date May 21 2012 20:44:09
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3464
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Black Hole eats sun (in reply to Ruphus)
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quote:
Without wanting to be picky, but taoism is no religion.
Though I´m having my gripe with that one too, for its opportunist principle of making ways through least of resistance.
And for buddhism, hinduism and judaism there is a single aspect worth pointing out in comparison to the other main religions: The first mentioned are limiting their constrains to their own followers, not calling for the rest of men to be either missionized or conquered.
Ruphus
Taoism has elements that conform to religious practices. For example, belief in the "heavenly way." Also, Taoism in fact does recognize certain dieties, such as a belief in natural spirits, the power of dragons, etc. It may not have a set of rituals defining everything one should do, but it certainly has its share of myths that defy rational thinking.
While you are correct that Buddhism, Hinduism, and Judaism do not engage in missionary activities to gain adherents, that was not the criticism I detected in Florian and Odinz's posts. They were not criticizing Christians and the Bible because of missionary activities. I read their criticisms as questioning how anyone in this day and age could believe in Christianity and the Bible. My response was simply to point out that it is not only believers in Christianity who believe in myths that defy rational thinking.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date May 21 2012 21:24:36
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hamia
Posts: 408
Joined: Jun. 25 2004
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RE: Black Hole eats sun (in reply to BarkellWH)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: BarkellWH
quote:
i am surprised by how many millions/billions still follow the bible in this day and age and willingly chose to tie their eyes
And let's not leave out the one billion Muslims who believe every word in the Qur'an is the word of God, handed to Muhammad by the Angel Gabriel. And the followers of the Torah, who believe God created a "chosen people." And the Hindus, with their Shiva, Ganesha, and a host of others. And the Buddhists, Taoists, and others, with their host of otherworldly beliefs and myths. It is not just Christianity, my friends. The myths inherent in all religions are all around us with fervent believers. So much for the rational mind.
Cheers,
Bill
Yes, it's a worrying trend. And the widespread immigration of these types of religious people who are anti science (or incapable of understanding science) to western societies is going to have huge consequences. And the strangest thing is that no government is willing to do anything. I've worked in many countries around the world and it's clear that the most religious places have the worst infrastructure and government. The reason for the backwardness of these places is an unpalatable one for some people: it's due to various genetic factors. For instance in some religions it's allowed, and encouraged, for first cousins to marry. The resulting in-breeding has well known consequences. And people from these countries make a beeline for the west, taking the very beliefs that prevented their own country's development. The end result is going to be a genetic step back for western society. And an open door for China who don't have any scruples in keeping foreigners out of their country.
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Date May 21 2012 22:33:19
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Ricardo
Posts: 15151
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Black Hole eats sun (in reply to Ricardo)
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interesting so many foro members are anti religion and even anti god existence in favor of science...no one cares to counter for the case of spirituality? I am not relgion advocate of any sort, but I will say from experience the vast majority of intelligent people don't simply follow religion or spiritual life because of early age brainwashing. In most if not all cases, there was either a single or numerous EXPERIENCES that unfortunatley "intellect can't touch" (quoting sagan's contact) yet it is understood to be true and real and part of life anyway. In other words, coincidental events so profound and important that they must be acknowledged beyond simple chance luck or coincidental, the timing of which can't be explained easy by science alone. So the easiest way to comes to grips is to adhere to the most similar spiritual institution that provides something of an explaination....and the feeling that one is not ALONE in this feeling is so important.
I am very much into science. Yet it is surprising that so many into science believe in what it offers is complete to the human experience that it is enough. It is not, and seriously lacking in explaining a lot of things, including it's own discoveries. The science vs faith issues are so thouroughly explored in Sagan's Contact story. To bring it into play in this thread, the matter of fact description and "belief" in black hole existence by science minded, based on the LITERALLY invisible object's gravitational effects is oddly similar to the "belief" in an invisible creator that clearly makes things "happen" in the lives of very faithful and spiritual. Quatum effects such as entanglement, eerily termed as spooky action at a distance, such an important part of science world runs so parallel to the effects of those touched and affected by others that have passed on or relatives having simultaneous occuring events, or the connection between dreams and occuring events....then we have things like "duende"...how can everyone be involved? How can someone who thinks there is no instinct in the human congnotive brain and that humans basic need to self preservation so important feel compelled to rescue Dump puppies? Only because of disdain for the way fellow men take nature for granted and arogantly handle spirtiual belief instead of follow logic? Yet adopt a christ like attitude for insignificant doomed creatures? There is a duality or a condridiction always present. Perhaps science will one day explain it...but it is far off in the distance as far as what it presently offers. I have no faith in "dark matter" that drives galaxy behavior. It is just our ignorance in nature as simple as it is ignorant to think God alone is spinning those star conglomerations.... yet the truth is there staring us in the face.
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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
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Date May 22 2012 2:24:38
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Florian
Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia
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RE: Black Hole eats sun (in reply to estebanana)
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quote:
interesting so many foro members are anti religion and even anti god existence in favor of science...no one cares to counter for the case of spirituality? I am not relgion advocate of any sort, but I will say from experience the vast majority of intelligent people don't simply follow religion or spiritual life because of early age brainwashing. In most if not all cases, there was either a single or numerous EXPERIENCES that unfortunatley "intellect can't touch" (quoting sagan's contact) yet it is understood to be true and real and part of life anyway. In other words, coincidental events so profound and important that they must be acknowledged beyond simple chance luck or coincidental, the timing of which can't be explained easy by science alone. So the easiest way to comes to grips is to adhere to the most similar spiritual institution that provides something of an explaination....and the feeling that one is not ALONE in this feeling is so important.
I am very much into science. Yet it is surprising that so many into science believe in what it offers is complete to the human experience that it is enough. It is not, and seriously lacking in explaining a lot of things, including it's own discoveries
fair enough...my argument is ...if there is a force in the universe, something pulling things to a purpose ...i myself don't really believe there is but anyone with a good head on their shoulders ( a little self plug there lol) will admit that he/she dosent know everything..or that he/she can be wrong, and let me be the first to admit to this..
But based on everything we have learned, the way history was written and interpreted, history of religion, history of humans, today's scientific advances, what we now know about the history of the earth billions of years before us, my own sense, my experiences and observations as a human being... my theory is that....if there is a force that is purposely making impact in our life's... its not "god" as we know it or as the religions would make him appear...if there is something...none of us spoke to him or it. none of us know his or its plans and none of us know how to comprehend it...so to write books and make up rules about what it wants is ridiculous to me
to me spirituality is something else...not necessarily believing in god or religion or something divine pulling strings..a person can be spiritual without choosing to be blinded by made up stories from 2300 years ago....or speculating on something with absolute no basis simply because we think or cant explain other things......i mean if you think science has some unexplained phenomenons... what does that say about the proof about a divine force ? how many things do they explain ?....and saying science cant explain everything is not an explanation...and proof of anything...while science cant explain a few things it does explain a great great deal in contrast to the alternate explanation whose only explanation is that science cant explain everything...that's it ? that's the proof that something divine exists ? the fact that science cant explain everything yet ?
I would like to think on some level i am quite spiritual...but i believe in the miracle of life and nature and how amazing it is that we are here and how many ingredients had to be just perfect for life to take form and exist on earth...now that is a MIRACLE ...
we don't need any made up stories....our story is already AMAZING and spiritual
True.. science dosent yet know everything, but just because that is it dosent necessarily need to be put down to a divine force, it can just be filed under "Not yet known" .......because we admit we dont know Everything...dosent mean we dont know Anything......true we haven't yet learned everything and some remains unanswered but we have learned a LOT about ourselfs in our very very short existence, life, human body...and we continue to learn...
Even if i am wrong about every other thing i said in this post up to here what it all comes down to is...do i trust the intelligence and theory of a man that's made flying objects, performed brain surgery, heart transplant, traveled to very far corners of the universe and looked back at the earth, learned to cure diseases and return life, learned to clone it, learned the ingredients of life and are able to reproduce artificially in places where "god" didnt
or do i prefer instead the intelligence of a man who just figured out how to beat 2 stones together to make fire, died from the first infection, belived he had to kill things for it to rain ....and accept his version of events as to what happened...whatever the argument this is what it ultimately comes down to...who is more likely to have a better grasp on interpreting the events around us ?
while many of today's scientific theories might be argued ...there is absolutely no argument in the difference in the level of understanding, development and interpreting the events around us...and the difference between what we know today and what we knew back then...while we don't know everything about ourselfs we know about 65% ? and we continue to fill in gaps...and that's about 64% more than we knew back then
even the fact that we are willing to admit that we dont know it all yet (which many see as an opening for their theory however unfounded) and argue it and put it to question and continue to study it makes us smarter and better observers and scholars of things around us...nothing more dangerous than a man convinced beyond any reasonable doubt that he is right..
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Date May 22 2012 4:01:22
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Ruphus
Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
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RE: Black Hole eats sun (in reply to Arash)
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Hi Bill,
Agreed, your comment is conclusive reply to foregone comments.
Ricardo,
Your post appears quite like bent to predetermined demand.
In my experience believers are vastly preconditioned, and the small percentage who yet came to dedicating to mythology as adults usually appear unwilling to cope with this worlds reality, or better to say, to taking efforts of seeing into own and surrounding conditions.
Further, I ´m not sure whether I understood your remarks on me, but if so:
# Why would you think that the replacement of instincts through awareness would be equalling giving up on self-preservation in the same time?
# Why would you think that empathical skills were bound to adopting "Christ like attitude"?
Empathical skills and reasoning have been with hominids way before past 2 millenia.
# What kind of thinking approach makes you sense "insignificant doomed creatures"?
You don´t sound to me like being "very much into ( principles of) science" at all. For, science is less pathing opinion rather than the attempt of approaching objectivity.
And objectively; you might want to take a seat first; we, being immensely destructive to bio diversity and ressources, are the least significant species on earth as is now.
We are evolutionized for being reasonable, not for degenerating to jumbo mumbo.
And I am delighted to see all the actual speciality of human in the other posts, dearly wishing such to have been common level with todays population. - Regardless, whether in rural or academic fields.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Arash
Science might not be able to explain everything, but what i know is that the big Religions can't explain anything, and when explaining, the explanation is bullsh!t.
I personally think i am an Agnostic.
I think noone really knows (and will be able to know in the future) if something like "God" exists or not or if some of those metaphysical experiences are real or not and if real, what causes them.
So, not believing in the Religions, doesn't necessarily mean that you are an Atheist or "Anti God". You can be "anti religion" but at the same time not be sure if "God" exists.
I think to understand your personal view.
In general terms however, what can or rather must be done is reciprocally questioning.
Can the same intelligence that was creating and conducting the world be ordinary perceiving / acting like an ancient rube in the same time?
And provided the thinking individual´s slightest notion of what is going on our planet: Could an almighty, by his capability self-evidently far from vengeance or sadism ever be standing by watching it?
Or, could he alternatively have been capable of creating all that is in space and monitoring it in the same time, yet be insusceptible to gross yet vainly inflicted pain and injust such as is occuring billions of times every single day on earth?
Logic demands the precondition of thelike questions as possibly positively answerable first, for a considering of mutual eventuality of occurance or abscence. Otherwise equal consideration of yes or no would be like building a castle in the air.
Just saying.
Ruphus
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Date May 22 2012 12:20:02
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