RE: Black Hole eats sun (Full Version)

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estebanana -> RE: Black Hole eats sun (May 23 2012 19:40:42)

quote:

Yet, she has done EXACTLY that herself at least 4 times in the past (if you believe in fossil record of mass extinction events that have occured since the begining of life on earth, and furthmore occur in fairly regular time intervals). In fact this slate cleaning seems a big part of the evolution of life on earth.....everything must die out to make room for others. EVERY LIFE FORM MUST DIE.


Are you telling me God fukced up four times in a row and had to start over until he got it right? No wonder the bible people want to say it happened in seven days. God messed shiet up so bad in his first four tries they they are embarassed at his mistakes.

I can just see God, "Oh crap on a stick!I messed up the flounders' eyes again? " "Have to start this whole thing over or they will go crooked. "



Arash -> RE: Black Hole eats sun (May 23 2012 19:46:36)

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana



Are you telling me God fukced up four times in a row and had to start over until he got it right?


actually i think god simply farted once (big bang) and then he left us alone.



mottallica -> RE: Black Hole eats sun (May 23 2012 20:04:29)

quote:

But even in a democracy, imagine 90% of the Germans vote for Neo Nazis.
Should it be accepted?


you remember you're talking to a jew here right?ofc it shouldn't be accepted
the fact is that the country became nazi because that was the law - that is what most people wanted - that is why it became a nazi country weather it's ok or not



mottallica -> RE: Black Hole eats sun (May 23 2012 20:06:41)

quote:

actually i think god simply farted once (big bang) and then he left us alone.


nice concept - a bit direct



BarkellWH -> RE: Black Hole eats sun (May 23 2012 22:15:59)

quote:

you are correct , but there is still no agreement around the american society which is the valid one. that is why both should be taught so children know both and someday decide for themselves.


While there is a significant minority of Americans who believe in creationism and reject evolution and its driving force natural selection, the worldwide scientific community is almost unanimous in its acceptance of the theory of evolution, and it has been for nearly a century. As noted earlier, all the evidence supports the theory of evolution. There is no scientific evidence at all that supports the ideas held by the creationists, such as the earth being 6,000 to 10,000 years old. In my opinion, democracy does not require one to passively accept a bogus idea like creationism just because a significant minority of the electorate believe in it.

To say that "both should be taught so children know both and someday decide for themselves" implies that you think the theory of evolution and creationism are equally valid concepts. That simply is not true. In fields such as biology and anthropology, children should be taught what is scientifically valid, not some religiously-inspired nonsense that we know to be false. Do you really want children to grow up believing the earth is 6,000 to 10,000 years old? I agree that democratically-elected school boards can make decisions about teaching creationism and, unfortunately, it must be accepted. But it need not be accepted with passive resignation. In my opinion, that is reason enough for rational individuals to run for a place on those school boards, in order to overturn such decisions and place education on a rational footing.

Cheers,

Bill



estebanana -> RE: Black Hole eats sun (May 23 2012 22:51:01)

quote:

In my opinion, democracy does not require one to passively accept a bogus idea like creationism just because a significant minority of the electorate believe in it.


Hear, hear.



Ruphus -> RE: Black Hole eats sun (May 23 2012 23:46:42)

Immaturity and democracy exclude each other.
Untouched supply of information and simultaneous pursue of systematic distortion of verifiable facts in public media would be indispensable precondition.

Democracy without people´s maturity stays dictature.
The idea of democracy after all is a child of reason.

Ruphus



hamia -> RE: Black Hole eats sun (May 24 2012 3:48:25)

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

More excellent modern philosophical discourse. Foreshadows of the Dr. Evil character on Austin Powers.



Woah dude. A most excellent and bodacious find - I'm really stoked!



Arash -> RE: Black Hole eats sun (May 24 2012 5:25:41)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mottallica

quote:

But even in a democracy, imagine 90% of the Germans vote for Neo Nazis.
Should it be accepted?


you remember you're talking to a jew here right?ofc it shouldn't be accepted
the fact is that the country became nazi because that was the law - that is what most people wanted - that is why it became a nazi country weather it's ok or not


So you agree with me that they should be exceptions, even in Democracies and even if the majority of people voted for something.
We can't allow Nazis to come back, and we can't allow religious fanatics to take control of the world again.

You can see examples in our countries (Iran, Israel).
For instance in both countries, woman are not allowed to sit together with men in Buses ( In Iran everywhere, and in Israel some places). I knew in Iran its like that, but i didn't know in Israel too until recently !

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/israeli-woman-refuses-ultra-orthodox-dictate-to-move-to-back-of-bus-1.402021

This is when it becomes dangerous, because of dictating others what they should do and shouldn't do.



XXX -> RE: Black Hole eats sun (May 24 2012 7:17:38)

Both Democracy and Fascism have the same purpose to increase the nation's wealth. This is why Democrats can not criticize Fascists in any rational way, leaving them to the arbitrary "they should not be allowed to rule", without much reasoning. And by the way, if youre counting corpses do not forget the ones died by the Democracies.

The only key to surpass this, and besides that the only thing that has ever helped humanity, is science. Because of that i find it pretty harmful to act like everybody should have is own opinion regardless of what the content is. It is important what political mindset the people have, because thats what determines the political landscape and has a HUGE EFFECT on peoples lives. Unless something like opinion in music which is just for personal entertainment and has no effect on peopes lives. Thats why pluralism is actually dangerous, as it only helps the established regimes.



mottallica -> RE: Black Hole eats sun (May 24 2012 7:27:56)

quote:

For instance in both countries, woman are not allowed to sit together with men in Buses ( In Iran everywhere, and in Israel some places). I knew in Iran its like that, but i didn't know in Israel too until recently !


it's just in a very very few closed communities - Amish like communities
the Haredim (the ultra orthodox jews)started demanding this and now there is a big quarrel between them and rest of the society - they also don't serve the army which all of us other israelis do
they are now almost exiled and they are a very small community and as you know with the media - they'll turn anything that happened once into a daily routine
it's not really like that here...

it's a very small group that



estebanana -> RE: Black Hole eats sun (May 24 2012 7:31:46)

Black Hole thread eats my mind.



XXX -> RE: Black Hole eats sun (May 24 2012 7:36:45)

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

Black Hole thread eats my mind.


as they say "once you go black, ..."
you should have known that, dude.



Ruphus -> RE: Black Hole eats sun (May 24 2012 11:25:55)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Deniz

Both Democracy and Fascism have the same purpose to increase the nation's wealth.


The term fascism stems from the latin word "fagi" which means whip, not "prosperity".

And of the practical examples history provides, as far as I know fascist leaders did enrich themselves from national wealth just like leaders in any capitalist society.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Deniz

The only key to surpass this, and besides that the only thing that has ever helped humanity, is science. Because of that i find it pretty harmful to act like everybody should have is own opinion regardless of what the content is. It is important what political mindset the people have, because thats what determines the political landscape and has a HUGE EFFECT on peoples lives. Unless something like opinion in music which is just for personal entertainment and has no effect on peopes lives. Thats why pluralism is actually dangerous, as it only helps the established regimes.


Fully agreed, provided the adjective "regardless" before the term "pluralism".

Ruphus



Ricardo -> RE: Black Hole eats sun (May 24 2012 14:03:56)

quote:

yeah but given amino acids and all the energy you need - can you make it come to live? no -

Yes you can...they eventually gather and start to form molecules and eventually make crude copies etc....but the experiment takes billions of years. About 7 day metaphor again...the issue is with understanding time more then nature of universe. On the first day, god created the heavans....for 6 days and some hours he just kind of waited there, then in the afternoon made the sun moon earth....then on 7th day he made some stromatalites....and they hung out for some hours and hours, then the last hour before the day was over he made some other critters....then some split second interval of the last second of the day man appears...

Agreed with Arash metaphors and unique interpretations have to be done NOW in the light of scientific facts. Last thing I forgot to address was the soul...non spiritual people don't believe such a thing exists, so therefore no need to "explain" it scientifically. My point all along was that spiritual experiences are numerous and by all types of people not just mindless sheep followers, and fly in the face of what science offers as an explaination. Of course MANY of these CAN be explained by science as natural phenamena or brain activity, (perhaps in the future ALL will have explainations) but until ALL experiences of these sort are at least offered viable alternatives, people will continue to gravitate to religious groups where others have had similar experiences and they can feel a sense of community.



BarkellWH -> RE: Black Hole eats sun (May 24 2012 14:30:45)

quote:

The term fascism stems from the latin word "fagi" which means whip, not "prosperity".


Ruphus,

The term fascism is derived from the latin word "fasces." The fasces consisted of a bundle of rods tied around an axe, and the Romans used the fasces as a symbol of authority. Mussolini adopted the term for his movement.

I don't know if Deniz purposely did not mention communism and socialism when he stated that the goal of democracy and fascism is to increase the nation's wealth. But let's be clear that communism and socialism are every bit as concerned with increasing the wealth of the nation (the Soviet Union and all other former communist states) or the wealth of the leadership (North Korea). At times the inefficiency of the system hinders their accumulation of wealth (Cuba and North Korea), but the goal is still there.

Cheers,

Bill



Ricardo -> RE: Black Hole eats sun (May 24 2012 16:11:34)

quote:

There is to be distinguished at what geohistorcial point in time. The first extinctions in earths young and boiling state are being said to have been complete, with evolution having had to start out all over again. The following extinctions became less radical over time.
Currently the theory is that all living beings above the size of a badger must die out every 100 million of years. This would be different from what we are likely going to cause, which would leave merely cockroaches surviving if at all.

I was making a point that all life eventually gets snuffed regardless of our actions...and that mass extinctions of course don't do the entire job at once, and that we have tools to perhaps ignite at least a start of a mass extinction event. You seem to imply we have ability to do a "complete job" somehow doing more damage than mother nature has achieved in the past with mass extinction events. I never implied that we can do worse than mother nature, rather something comparable as per what I've "heard". Thinking about this issue, tough cockroaches and such, I looked for some numbers. It turns out we might NOT be able to so good a job as her after all:

http://www.bmartin.cc/pubs/82jpr.html

While this article is more discussion about human life than all earth life, you can imagine the comparisons to other species that exist now and have in the past that are much more adaptable than us. I am open to and would love to see better or more significant data that implies as you stated that we can do worse than past natural mass extinction events with our full out nuke exchange.

Despite the horror thoughts of post apocalyptic nuclear holocost survival, it still seems pretty tame compared to what happend as of yet unexplainably yet naturally back in the permian period. Even tough insects got snuffed:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permian-Triassic_extinction_event



Arash -> RE: Black Hole eats sun (May 24 2012 16:38:55)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mottallica

quote:

For instance in both countries, woman are not allowed to sit together with men in Buses ( In Iran everywhere, and in Israel some places). I knew in Iran its like that, but i didn't know in Israel too until recently !


it's just in a very very few closed communities - Amish like communities
the Haredim (the ultra orthodox jews)started demanding this and now there is a big quarrel between them and rest of the society - they also don't serve the army which all of us other israelis do
they are now almost exiled and they are a very small community and as you know with the media - they'll turn anything that happened once into a daily routine
it's not really like that here...

it's a very small group that


Yes it can be exageration in the Media as usual.
I am not very familar with the situation over there.
But i know that there are many serious religious people there too.

Anyway, all i want to say is that religion should be a private thing.
It shouldn't be mixed with the politics, laws of the country, etc.
I saw what can happen if it happens, so i am a little more sensitive towards this issue than probably others.



mottallica -> RE: Black Hole eats sun (May 24 2012 21:27:20)

quote:

Anyway, all i want to say is that religion should be a private thing.
It shouldn't be mixed with the politics, laws of the country, etc.
I saw what can happen if it happens, so i am a little more sensitive towards this issue than probably others.


agreed - and most religious jews aren't that way - most live like you and me just keep the "mitzvot" (jewish traditions and laws)

and things here are quite nice ,if anyone here has ever been to israel they can testify that it's jsut like any other western country


another thing that i'd like to say that as interesting as all of this thread is i'm going to step down , firstly because my English linguistic skills are still rusty from my service where i almost never talked English and it's a bit too hard for me to fully explain my self but mainly cause i probably would be better off with studying a bit more and refresh my knowledge in this entire area of thuoght

cheers



Florian -> RE: Black Hole eats sun (May 24 2012 21:45:09)

quote:


you remember you're talking to a jew here right?ofc it shouldn't be accepted
the fact is that the country became nazi because that was the law - that is what most people wanted - that is why it became a nazi country weather it's ok or not


i always thought that too, that its hard pretending like they didn't see or know or playing dumb.... but the reason they become Nazis was more to do with fear, propaganda, political swindling and manipulation, but mostly FEAR...there was no in between , you were either with them or in in TROUBLE, as much as we would all like to think we would all be like John Wayne under those circumstances our most basic instinct is to try and survive, at any cost...watch "The Rise and Fall of evil" documentary, from the perspective of German people ...made from thousands of letters written to own family members, in their own words so theres no acting for tv, they never thought anyone else other then the person they wrote to would ever see that letter...it paints a more accurate picture of German mentality back then, I know i wanted to learn HOW ? why?... how on earth could a whole country...this many people allow it, what must have been the thinking ? trying to understand the mentality.... ...i know you are a jew and i couldn't possibly understand the scar something like that has left on your race...I would forever be angry and there are of course many many people whos hands ARE dirty

but i do come from a communist dictator country and i do understand all about fear and manipulation, where you are afraid to disagree in public with any decision your government has made or you and your family simply dispear....in times like this ...a countries government behavior dosent necessarily represent the people ...is fear reason enough ?...if you believe its real ...theres no difference between wrongly thinking you are going to be killed and rightly thinking you are going to be killed, you will do anything you can to survive in both cases...they both just as real in your mind...and of course in many cases ...it wasent just physiological it was real...in both Romania and Germany...

Case n point... Jews that helped the Germans in the concentration camps by walking new arrivals into the "showers" and assuring and calming them....to survive just one more day,......its impossible to say it now out of the comfort of our warm home ...no not me...its impossible to know....and if you lived in a democratic country all your life, never lived under a dictator....perhaps impossible to comprehend ...i know theres a couple of people here that KNOW what i am talking about...in the movies we are all John Wayne



BarkellWH -> RE: Black Hole eats sun (May 24 2012 21:55:17)

Mottallica,

You have demonstrated that you are a real gentleman with ideas, and I think you are an asset to the Foro. Don't let your rusty English, and the fact that we might disagree, stop you from expressing yourself on flamenco, science, politics, or any other topic. We disagree with each other all the time on the Foro. As long as it is done in a civilized manner, we are all better off for having been exposed to ideas different from our own.

Cheers,

Bill



mezzo -> RE: Black Hole eats sun (May 24 2012 22:48:38)

Bill I suppose you're well aware 'bout the historical context of how and WHY the Blackshirts were born and rised?
It's well explain in Bertulocci's movie NOVECENTO.

In Weimar Rep, bloody streets Fight against the bolchevism, that's what the fat property owners liked and encouraged in those kind of extremist organization. Break any socials revendication with the use of violence and intimidation.
These land owners, stockholders, and the Church were too happy to protect themself from the "Red with a knife between his teeth" menace. Kapitalists found in these Brownshirts a convenient TOOL, someone who's doing the dirty job for them.

These motherf.ck did not hesitate one second to sign a pact with the devil to protect their interests and property.


But of course Bill, we know who are the bad boys! na?



BarkellWH -> RE: Black Hole eats sun (May 24 2012 23:05:00)

quote:

But of course Bill, we know who are the bad boys! na?


Exactly, Mezzo. The "bad boys" were on the extreme left and the extreme right. The Weimar Republic was very weak and could not maintain itself against the Nazis. The Brown Shirts were Hitler's creation to brutally squelch any opposition, whether centrist or leftist. The communists in Weimar, the most prominent of whom were Karl Liebknect and Rosa Luxembourg, did not have the following or the resources to match the extreme right, and they were eliminated. That the communists were eliminated, however, does not mean that they were morally superior or more principled than the extreme right. Had the situation been reversed, and had the communists eliminated the right, you can bet that they would have been just as authoritarian as the right, and they would have eliminated anyone they perceived as an opponent. We saw the result of communist victories in the USSR and Eastern Europe.

Cheers,

Bill



mottallica -> RE: Black Hole eats sun (May 24 2012 23:07:14)

quote:

i always thought that too, that its hard pretending like they didn't see or know or playing dumb.... but the reason they become Nazis was more to do with fear, propaganda, political swindling and manipulation, but mostly FEAR..


florian
you forget that hitler was elected domocratically and he's hatred tawards jew ( and gypsy too btw) was known to all - his race theory was known to all when he ran for office


quote:

You have demonstrated that you are a real gentleman with ideas, and I think you are an asset to the Foro. Don't let your rusty English, and the fact that we might disagree, stop you from expressing yourself on flamenco, science, politics, or any other topic. We disagree with each other all the time on the Foro. As long as it is done in a civilized manner, we are all better off for having been exposed to ideas different from our own.


thanks barkellwh
i'm not deterred from an argument and it's true what you say
i just noticed that the approach towards creationism in the states is very different than here and it's not just about not agreeing - it's beyond my lenguistic skills and a lot of cultural differences
apparently the 7 day idea is looked upon very diffidently in judism then in christianity. btw according to creationism the world is exactly 5772 years old and not 6000-10000 - i know because the jewish calendar works in years according to creationism. the fact that creationism believers in the us say it's 6000-10000 years old just shows to me the difference in thought - it looks to me they are looking at things the way i hate - they just take what the minister say (or the rabbi say with us jews) and take it as a fact with out trying to understand what it means - most of the time , not really understanding what he meant

to Jewish people the old testament is our tradition so we know a more about it . nothing to do with believing or not - so for me to clear my thoughts will be very very long and difficult to do on paper
another thing is i still have a lot of studying to do before i can fully understand and know all of you guys' arguments since you say it as facts to you - to me - some i know , some i don't and understanding them fro a forum debate is hard , especially with the linguistic barrier.
i'd love to talk to anyone here on a chat or Skype - where things are more immediate and it's easier to communicate and explain more about all of which i meant when i spoke about the 7 day metaphor idea because i saw most of you didn't get my point - might be me ,might be the different way we see things culturally



mezzo -> RE: Black Hole eats sun (May 24 2012 23:11:12)

quote:

The communists in Weimar, the most prominent of whom were Karl Liebknect and Rosa Luxembourg, did not have the following or the resources to match the extreme right, and they were eliminated.

Kapitalist chose their ally...But they do not shout from the rooftops and tried to avoid their responsabilities.
Big US company collaborated too!


quote:

NOVECENTO

I recommend this movie. great one. a sample

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1


quote:

. We saw the result of communist victories in the USSR and Eastern Europe.

Germany wasn't in the same social condition as the tsarist Russia. So it would not had turn in the same way.
Marx thought more about an industrial society like germay or england while thinking about his ideology.
The tsarian society (with a very scarce workin class) wasn't adequate to his views. And things may have turn in an other way.

We never know what would happened, we just could assumed ... historical fiction!



estebanana -> RE: Black Hole eats sun (May 24 2012 23:42:25)

quote:

Mottallica,

You have demonstrated that you are a real gentleman with ideas, and I think you are an asset to the Foro. Don't let your rusty English, and the fact that we might disagree, stop you from expressing yourself on flamenco, science, politics, or any other topic. We disagree with each other all the time on the Foro. As long as it is done in a civilized manner, we are all better off for having been exposed to ideas different from our own.


Yes you should keep it up, it's good for you.



BarkellWH -> RE: Black Hole eats sun (May 24 2012 23:45:01)

I don't disagree with your description of capitalists in Weimar Germany, Mezzo. What I don't understand is your failure to recognize that the communists were every bit as willing to eliminate any opposition as the capitalists and their Nazi political allies. They lost the game in Germany, but we certainly can see the result of their victories in the Soviet Union and Eastern Europe. Are you attempting to condemn capitalism by suppressing information on the crimes committed by communist regimes?

Cheers,

Bill



mezzo -> RE: Black Hole eats sun (May 24 2012 23:50:17)

quote:

Are you attempting to condemn capitalism by suppressing information on the crimes committed by communist regimes?

I'm not as manichean as you Bill. Don't worry.



BarkellWH -> RE: Black Hole eats sun (May 25 2012 1:11:53)

quote:

I'm not as manichean as you Bill. Don't worry.


"Exactly, Mezzo. The "bad boys" were on the extreme left and the extreme right. The Weimar Republic was very weak and could not maintain itself against the Nazis. The Brown Shirts were Hitler's creation to brutally squelch any opposition, whether centrist or leftist."

"I don't disagree with your description of capitalists in Weimar Germany, Mezzo."

You will recall the above-cited quotes, condemning both the right and the left, were from my recent posts in our exchange, Mezzo. I have not seen anything in your posts that condemn both the right and the left. I have seen your condemnation of capitalists, but not a word condemning the left or the communists. I think it is clear which one of us is a Manichean, Mezzo.

Cheers,

Bill



estebanana -> RE: Black Hole eats sun (May 25 2012 3:34:07)

quote:

I don't disagree with your description of capitalists in Weimar Germany, Mezzo."


George Grosz - Toads of Property - Weimar artist known for satirizing the greedy bastards.

Bastards are bastards, commie or capitalists. There were also some good idealistic commies who suffered through the brutal repressions, but never had a voice. All the bastards use fear and a few artists or individuals make statements to ridicule them and call them out. Everything that has happened from that time that is horrible is done. Why all the Monday morning quarterbacking about the Nazis? Jesus we all read the history books, we know it was complex and laden with many layers of grey; many untold stories about resistors probably still exist that we'll never know.

How about what was created out of the horror and through it, that has lived on and made some sense? Rather than bicker about Nazis how about Olivier Messiaen's music written in a concentration camp? Grosz' acidic drawn commentaries on how fear operates on a society? Shostokovich's sarcastic musiccal inside jokes about the Stalin era.

It's a given those bastards went on bastarding, and nothing was light an dark or black and white, pure evil, pure good, because everyone lived in a state of paranoia and fear of the bastards. Disgusting, but not mind blowing, not a surprise. What is totally amazing, and act of bravery is the way musicians, composers, visual artists, writers reacted and worked through it.

Rehashing the bastards is boring the **** out of me. I'll start posting more Wayne's World vids or Worse Cuttie Kitten Videos if you persists in this folly and continue this protracted bicker fest !

[:D][8D][>:]

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