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RE: Scale Lengths: Bridge vs 12th fret locations, vs. neck length   You are logged in as Guest
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Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: Scale Lengths: Bridge vs 12th fr... (in reply to estebanana

quote:

ORIGINAL: Richard Jernigan

On the other hand, with age and experience one may learn the great importance of diplomacy, respect and sensitivity to the points of view of others.

If the intention is to debate, it may be useful to remember that they say, "You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar."

RNJ


That is certainly correct; no objections from me.
My old man was the true and perfect gentleman, capable of conveying whatever due without ever sounding intimidating.
He could make a reactionary rethink.
Others, like me, just don´t have the capacity to manage contents and consideration / rhetorics well enough simultaneously.

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

Ruphus, for a while your writing was driving me crazy, but as RJ said, I can see you now as a James Joyce of the Foro. But reading your posts is still a long days journey into crazy.



How in this world could things not be crazy in the first place.
After all we are only running nuts as if it was just a natural thing to do.

Hey, meanwhile you can even wittness the most conservative newsreader of German TV making a sinister TV-movie about German water mafia coups in Africa, and commenting it like "Our generation will be wittnessing the breakup, yet".
And the man must be over 70, mind you.

If someone some years ago would have suggested to me how thelike facts-immune newsreader to possibly be uttering in such a way some day, I would have probably thought the someone to be crazy.


Green manikins out there must be watching through their space channel glasses, marvelling like "These guys are devastating the richest planet in all of that galactic square, for insane greed; in the same time spending the swag into undertakings like the generating of an artificial black hole, or into pity space shuttle-projects to prepare a getaway ...

Gneezfleaqz; come over here and have a peep at this! A civilisation of complete mental failure at sublevel 57g!"

Choices lie between craze or autism.
Shades in between are definitly out of the window.
-

I havn´t been playing guitar, since my crow suddenly died three days ago.
She was such a cutie.
Will go now and pluck some strings.

Ruphus



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 29 2011 9:04:43
 
jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005
 

RE: Scale Lengths: Bridge vs 12th fr... (in reply to Ruphus

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ruphus

I havn´t been playing guitar, since my crow suddenly died three days ago.
She was such a cutie.
Will go now and pluck some strings.

Ruphus


We have something in common Rufus. I too am a lover of all things Corvid. We have two semi-tame Ravens, 5 crows and a horde of Steller's Jays who drop by for breakfast every day. You have my sympathy in your loss of your friend.

_____________________________

John Shelton - www.sheltonfarrettaguitars.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 29 2011 14:09:21
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: Scale Lengths: Bridge vs 12th fr... (in reply to Ruphus

Ravens ...!
Not that it could be getting any smarter than with their smaller brethren, but they are so impressive!

I guess you noted that for some paradox appearing reasons there seems to be a slight raise in numbers with corvids worldwide currently.
And you might have heard of that the admins in Tokyo are trying to get rid of them by removing their nests. - And that the crows reacted immediatedly by building many fakes, keeping the gatherers busy and led astray from their actual breeding places.


These animals appear mystic to us ever since.
There´s a family somewhere in the US who have a blind raven. And the people who met that bird, say something magically would be happening to them in the nearness to that old and sublime creature.

And indeed, I can´t explain it, but looking into the trusting eye of a crow has something very special to it. As if you could physically feel that curiousity, wisdom and liking.

On the other hand, ornithologists can´t find out how these birds manage to obviously convey to each other even the specific shape of a molesting human face, that will be shrieked at tenths of miles away by fellow corvids that have never seen that person before themselves.

There is good reason why many of the old religions reserved a special place for these creatures, often deeming them as assistants of the god(s). ( Like Odin with the two crows on his shoulders, who fly out to peer and bring the news.)
- And why most of modern religions discriminated the black birds just the more intensely, in their jelousy and opposition to ancient forerunners of superstition and the respect folks used to have for this species.
... Those, and black cats, and dogs, and donkeys and goats and snakes, that all were / are supposed to be either unpure or mates of the devil. ( And who thus suffer under simple human mind´s treatment till these days.)

Man, I could sit down with you for hours, quizzing you about your experience and gathered knowledge. ( There seems to not really exist to much, even among ornithologists.)

In the same timing trying all the time not to think of Pepe ( which is how I called the crow ), as it gets at me more than I would had even thought.

Now considering how to do about a coming bowl from a stray dog, which will very likely not survive anyway, the minute they´ll be born any day now in the bitter cold without a lousy niche, not even any kind of cover to hole up.

Currently thinking of getting an old fridge from scrapyard, intending to make a 2 chamber box of it. Very likely not enough to keep the puppies alive, but at least give the mother a tad of relief.
- If she only wouldn´t be so terrified by brainless humans!

Anyway, great to hear from a corvid enthusiast! :0)
( Got a little story, maybe?)

Ruphus
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 29 2011 17:08:56
 
Gummy

Posts: 495
Joined: Nov. 27 2005
From: North Carolina, USA

RE: Scale Lengths: Bridge vs 12th fr... (in reply to Ruphus

I grew up in central Alaska. There were several large and old ravens that used to hang around. It was amazing that they could survive the unbelievable cold winters. When I was a kid walking to school, there would be no other sign of wildlife but you could often see them(almost always alone) sitting on some power pole etc and hear them calling. It would echo across the cold ice foggy stillness. Weird but cool.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 29 2011 17:19:10
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: Scale Lengths: Bridge vs 12th fr... (in reply to Gummy

It was what I noticed to be missing in Germany.
You hardly hear ( let alone see ) them anymore. Not even in automn when the bachelors should be gathering in big gangs.

Yeah, i really wonder how they withstand extreme weather.
All of the wildlife ( and strays ), but corvids seem especially tough.

Ruphus
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 29 2011 17:25:59
 
estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Scale Lengths: Bridge vs 12th fr... (in reply to Ruphus

quote:

And you might have heard of that the admins in Tokyo are trying to get rid of them by removing their nests. - And that the crows reacted immediatedly by building many fakes, keeping the gatherers busy and led astray from their actual breeding places.


That's amazing. Smart crows.

When I said reading your writing is crazy Ruphus, I did not mean that as a bad thing. You're as crazy as a crow.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 29 2011 19:19:00
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: Scale Lengths: Bridge vs 12th fr... (in reply to estebanana

I know, man! :0)

Thank you,

Ruphus
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 29 2011 23:50:59
 
eccullen

 

Posts: 97
Joined: Aug. 14 2007
 

RE: Scale Lengths: Bridge vs 12th fr... (in reply to Ruphus

Very sad to hear about Pepe !
I send my regards and sympathies.

also this just in:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/11/111129112319.htm
...They observed that ravens use their beaks similar to hands to show and offer objects such as moss, stones and twigs. These distinct gestures were predominantly aimed at partners of the opposite sex and resulted in frequent orientation of recipients to the object and the signallers...
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 30 2011 3:05:31
 
Pgh_flamenco

 

Posts: 1506
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
From: Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania

RE: Scale Lengths: Bridge vs 12th fr... (in reply to Ruphus

quote:

I havn´t been playing guitar, since my crow suddenly died three days ago.
She was such a cutie.
Will go now and pluck some strings.

Ruphus


Sorry to hear of the loss of your pet, Ruphus.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 30 2011 3:48:37
 
odinz

Posts: 407
Joined: May 26 2010
From: Sarpsborg,Norway

RE: Scale Lengths: Bridge vs 12th fr... (in reply to Ruphus

Ruphus that is horrible I am so sorry about your loss...

These creatures are often looked at with nasty eyes, but they have such beautiful minds, their eyes glow wisdom and creativity.

Maybe that is why they are sometimes feared greatly.

I like the lookout that they are the souls of the ones who died unfortunately.
It is the way I look at them, they seem so human to me.

There is a story about a woman who dies giving birth to her child, as she is dying with her baby in her arms she whispered into the newborn's small ears that she would watch over her, and keep her safe.

The next day a flock of ravens sat right outside the window on the hospital room, and they brought silver and gold to the window as gifts and toys for the daughter of the deceased woman.


Recently I have been wanting to befriend a crow or a raven from my garden, but i am not sure how to approach...

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 30 2011 4:53:51
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: Scale Lengths: Bridge vs 12th fr... (in reply to odinz

Thank you very much, friends, for your empathy. :0)
And also for the interesting link.

quote:

ORIGINAL: odinz

Ruphus that is horrible I am so sorry about your loss...

These creatures are often looked at with nasty eyes, but they have such beautiful minds, their eyes glow wisdom and creativity.

Maybe that is why they are sometimes feared greatly.


Thank you, Odin.

For one, indeed, the simple mind often times fears and suspects intelligence.

Then there is the disparagement of ravens and other species through most of the great religions.
And at last there is that unconscious simplicity of color valueing, with dark supposedly being spooky and bright having to be harmless. ( Like cow milk being considered healthy, because of being white, etc.)
Hence, white swans being perceived as heavenly creatures, while ravens ought to have been send from hell.


quote:

ORIGINAL: odinz

I like the lookout that they are the souls of the ones who died unfortunately.
It is the way I look at them, they seem so human to me.

There is a story about a woman who dies giving birth to her child, as she is dying with her baby in her arms she whispered into the newborn's small ears that she would watch over her, and keep her safe.

The next day a flock of ravens sat right outside the window on the hospital room, and they brought silver and gold to the window as gifts and toys for the daughter of the deceased woman.


My sisters, relatives and me had gathered abroad to entomb my mother, some five years ago.

Actually, I had just momentarily returned to Germany from Costa Rica ( where I had been to the San Jose University for a month to learn some Spanish first, and then cruised the country for a while to find a lot to settle down ) to pack up when the message of our bedresting mother´s health having seriously worsened reached us.

The weird thing in Costa Rica as one of the most wild-life enriched countries in the world, was that I hardly came to see corvins, other than maybe two or three jays, a very few magpies, and always a single cow that was to be seen in about a distance of not farther than ~ 50 meters.
No matter where I was, in hights or the valleys, the cities, country sides, in the jungle ... There would be a caw, and there a single crow would be seen in a tree or on a roof, pole ... The only exceptions being when I was hanging out at the beach.

I´m not intending to claim that it was all the same individum, but anyway, curiously there was always a single crow near by, and if it was just sitting on a branch before the classrooms window when I was learning Spanish ( with the mates there wondering too ).

Now back to the days of burying mother.
It was maybe two days before we entombed her, when my great sister in her intention to inheritate the family head position had just said something completely stupid.
Positioned in the 21nd floor of a tower, that same moment we saw a big craw flying towards us, sit on the balkony railing maybe 3 meters away from us, shout out once and head off again.
My little sister and I only looked at each other bewildered.

About a year later I found young Pepe on the white middle line of a country road with the wild traffic giving no dime about her.

I took her with me and built an aviary on my roof. At first she had to be hand fed.

Crows however are extremely strict about their territory, and the residential black crows, hoodiecrows and magpies showed hostile to her. All of my three trials to release her ended with me picking up the poor haunted Pepe from somewhere in the quarter. ( In one of those cases crows of all kinds coming up from all directions, cyrcling right above my head in a number of well around 50. Hitchcock would have envyed the scene, I tell ya.)
And at the fourth trial, when I let the aviary open ( with her not wanting to get out ) other corvids entered in and attacked her in a way that her left wing got damaged, leaving her crippled.

Yet, she would always beak feed the others, having me haul up way too much vegetables and meat. So, a while ago I limited the daily portion to about equivalent of her body weight, now panged whether she might have been weakened through a too small diet.

Sometimes the fellow corvids seemed to just be talking to her ( with one early morning me hearing a huge hoodiecraw talking to her so calmly in something that sounded so versatile and pronounced right like human speech, I kid you not ), but often times they would only bully her around.

She was over three years with me, and I think that she must have had a way too pityful life. Alone, craving for her family and hostiled by residents.
Somehow I seem to never be able to well suit the living beings I love. It is like a curse.

quote:

ORIGINAL: odinz
Recently I have been wanting to befriend a crow or a raven from my garden, but i am not sure how to approach...


You will need patience and time.

Crows and ravens only imprint until the age of 28 days. What occures after that will be object to their extreme caution.

Even in the wilderness, after finding a carcass, the finder will try to have others checking out the situation first.
This is why the finder will first call by fellows. Together they´ll hang around in trees nearby then, encouraging each other for hours, making a big fuzz, before one shows brave enough to go down. Approaching the caracass yet with utmost of allert.

In the same time these guys can be couraged enough to tease wolves and bears to make those dislodge from their prey.

Anyway, with goodwill and lots of patience you can have the corvins realize your friendly approach over time and and allow smaller distances.

Only keep in mind that it is best to put fodder out only in the afternoon and for a limited time. ( Thy dislike sour things and green verdure, and you should feed no bread ( to any bird), and ablosutely no dairy products!)
Otherwise your neighbours might become annoyed, for crows being used to taking breakfast around dawn and make a lot of noise at that.

( Just having put out meat for the stray dog hours ago, it took me to only show up there once to have the crows stay away from it / preserve it for the dog. Which tells you about their caution.)

Ruphus
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 30 2011 12:41:32
 
jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005
 

RE: Scale Lengths: Bridge vs 12th fr... (in reply to Ruphus

Since there are a few people on this list interested in Corvids. This link might might be of interest:

http://ascaronline.org/

I've been a member of ASCAR for many years. Sorry for the off topic post.

_____________________________

John Shelton - www.sheltonfarrettaguitars.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 30 2011 14:54:15
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: Scale Lengths: Bridge vs 12th fr... (in reply to Ruphus

Thank you for the link, John!

Although it contains relatively little of info once again. ( Yet, better than nothing, though.)

It could provide more detail, like maybe on population matters, culture following, dispatch of nestlings, differences with those living in the wilderness and those in urban areas, and modern effects altogether.

Like say the fact that with territories becoming scarce, bachelors being forced to put the coupling on hold ( waiting for vacancies ) and staying with their families, helping to raise new siblings of their parents.

How they, except of winters bachelors flocks, usually stay quite stricktly within their territory and request neighbouring corvids to do the same.
How different corvids share same territories and obviously even befriend with each other, etc.

Or how they are often having a special grudge with cats, eventhough most cats won´t attack a fully grown corvid. And how they provoke cats on roofs by flying near by, with often times succeeding in that the cat will jump and fall off the hight. ...

And then there are interesting stories of personal experiences that could be gathered and posted, etc. pp.

And yep, sorry for OT!

Ruphus
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 1 2011 11:38:15
 
jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005
 

RE: Scale Lengths: Bridge vs 12th fr... (in reply to Ruphus

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ruphus

Thank you for the link, John!

Although it contains relatively little of info once again. ( Yet, better than nothing, though.)


There is a (roughly) quarterly magazine called the Corvi Chronicle printed by ASCAR that is full of the type of information you are looking for. I don't know if they mail internationally or not.

_____________________________

John Shelton - www.sheltonfarrettaguitars.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 1 2011 14:12:51
 
Shawn Brock

 

Posts: 271
Joined: Sep. 19 2011
From: Louisville KY

RE: Scale Lengths: Bridge vs 12th fr... (in reply to Ruphus

I let myself take some things personally and left the foro for a few days. There was no reason for me to be talked to in the way that I was, all because I said "no one here is beyond greatness", those here who are beyond greatness got pissed about that... When all that I was saying is that being humble goes a long way, and we should always respect others. Its disappointing to see this thread also turn into a war. I'm one of these hippy kind of can't we all just get along kind of guys... I have a strong admiration for all of you makers and sure don't want to see any of you leave. Everyone has something to offer, that's something which is often overlooked I think. People do have a tendency to let their opinions come across as belittling at times, although often its without intention. I'm not taking anyone's side, because I am not a builder, only a player, and one which isn't beyond greatness...

I can say that I have had a guitar ported and in the end the guitar was a worse instrument than before. Having said that, some of the greatest guitars which I have played had a soundport. This leads to a question which probably won't be answered, because no one will want to come near this thread. I will ask anyhow though just in case someone is still hanging around. The question is, at what point in building should a soundport be planned for? Is it a mistake to drill a port after a guitar was built with no intentions of it ever having a port? It almost seems that a builder may would alter some things during construction to make a soundport behave in the best possible manor, and that adding a soundport after the fact is not the way to go. I would be interested in hearing someone speak on this because I'm on the edge of deciding if I want to have another guitar ported after the fact.

Also count me in the ranks of the "girls" who probably aint man enough for 660. I like the idea, but don't know if I could handle it... I have heard some state that 660 always has more volume and I don't know if that's true. Who of us don't want more volume, but is it worth the extra 10 MM? Maybe so, maybe I just need to give it a try...
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 2 2011 18:23:42
 
estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Scale Lengths: Bridge vs 12th fr... (in reply to Ruphus

Sorry you got bounced around Shawn. You came in in the middle of a rough patch. I see you're new, so welcome. What you did not know is that there has been friction here on a certain level and not everyone understands the back story or why, but what happened has been brewing for a while.

Anyway, just duck if **** starts to fly and don't take it personally.

When it comes to scale lengths and the questions of which produce the most volume or projection or trebles vs. basses, there are no absolutes. There are some general rules of thumb, but the trouble with stating them is that people begin to get dogmatic about these basic principles and don't see the permutations and detail that guitar makers are thinking about when they plan guitars.

In the movie the Lawrence of Arabia the main character Lawrence once says to someone who tells him, .." it is written that you cannot cross the Suns Anvil".. Lawrence replies "Nothing is written!"

Same with scale length, you generalize all day about how it theoretically works, but for every generalization you make you'll find ten or twenty guitars to break that rule.

Nothing is written. It's all experience based for the builder and the player.

Or in the words of Indiana Jones " Snakes. Why'd it have to be snakes? "

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https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 2 2011 18:59:16
 
XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005
 

RE: Scale Lengths: Bridge vs 12th fr... (in reply to estebanana

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana
There are some general rules of thumb,


may i add one to this thread?
Soundports are f'ing awesome!
End of rule.

_____________________________

Фламенко
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 2 2011 19:05:02
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: Scale Lengths: Bridge vs 12th fr... (in reply to Ruphus

Shawn

IMHO, there´s no problem in adding a soundport after the guitar was built. The guitars that I build without soundports are all prepared for one in the case the owner would like to have one added later on

I have some ideas and I´m considering opening a new thread about soundports. I´m just not ready yet. 2 reason, I´m pretty busy these days and I dont want Mr. Blackshear to destroy the idea of the thread. He always does that.
So I wait a little bit and see if he has decided to leave the forum again again again.

To me the main reson for building 660 scales are for big guys with big hands. Some say the can feel a difference in the upper frets. I cant and the difference at the upper frets is a couple of tenth of milimeters. On the other hand, I can feel a difference in the lower frets. The guitar feels bigger played open if it has a 660mm scale. And this is an advantage for some players and a disadvantage for others.

Yes, there´s a very small change in sound, volume and projection. But I repeat that its just a very very small change and close to nothing when you compare to what can be changed when working the top.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 2 2011 19:26:45
 
jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005
 

RE: Scale Lengths: Bridge vs 12th fr... (in reply to Anders Eliasson

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson

Yes, there´s a very small change in sound, volume and projection.

Anders,

At the risk of being redundant. When people are building at the top end of the guitar pyramid a small change is not necessarily a small thing. I personally think I can hear a substantial difference between 650mm and 660mm in our guitars. Of course I'm just a fat old man with tinnitis and arthritis so what do I know?

_____________________________

John Shelton - www.sheltonfarrettaguitars.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 2 2011 22:23:28
 
Shawn Brock

 

Posts: 271
Joined: Sep. 19 2011
From: Louisville KY

RE: Scale Lengths: Bridge vs 12th fr... (in reply to Ruphus

Gentlemen:

Thanks for the valuable input. The possibility of more volume out of a 660 is always appealing, but like Anders said, you can feel it when playing open. That's the part that puts me in a state of fear...

@ Stephen, While in SF 2 months ago I think we were both over at the Sunday Flamenco show at The Thirsty Bear. I wish we had gotten the chance to get acquainted. I'm the big ugly blind guy with the yellow guide dog... I talked with the guitarist, Paul, can't recall his last name, but I know he was playing one of your sweet creations, I think he said it was your first flamenco? One of these days man... You will be building me something, so don't go back to just being a bow maker! Same goes for Anders who's guitars speak loud and true, even when they were recorded with a camera. I for one waste enough time listening to guitars which were recorded with cameras to be able to hear through all of that, and know Anders has a lot to offer guitarists.

I would never run Tom down as a builder, he too does some great things. I played a "Reyes" by him a few months ago which was fantastic! That particular guitar wasn't for me, but still fantastic... I do think though that for the future when I have something built for me it will have a port.

The funny thing is some of the ported guitars I have auditioned with other players, I could tell a difference as a listener, while others I could only tell a difference when I was the player. Tom is either right on about ports, or completely wrong. Either people will get over the fad or everyone will have ports. When done right they sure are nice for the player. A port makes you feel more in control and you get more excited about your articulations as a player. At least that's the case for me.

On this same trip to SF I stopped off at Guitar Solo, and the salesman ran down guitars with ports, Kenny Hill, double tops, Smallman and pretty much anything which wasn't traditional "old school" construction. All I could think was, what a shame! This dood will always be stuck in the past... I'm not a big Smallman fan myself, but I see the value in what he makes. Just because it isn't for me don't mean that its not a great guitar... The best classical they had in my opinion was a double top, and the guy said, "no, don't like it, its just to different." Then he said, "Hill makes all that kind of crap. He has nothing new to offer as a maker." It seemed contradictory to me, on 1 hand you run a guy down saying he doesn't do anything new, and on the other you say that you don't like makers who build double tops because they aren't built the "old way". Okay, I'm straying from the subject here, I'm not a huge Hill supporter anyhow... Guess my point is, thanks to all of you guys, and just know that many of us have a great respect for what you do. Even though guitarists are the hardest people on earth to make happy. Making a guitar for a guy is kind of like having a pregnant wife, its a rocky road...

By the way Stephen, that salesman kept harping on some great San Francisco maker from some years back. He said that the guy got messed up on drugs and was homeless. He said that everyone just loved this guitars, but I can't recall the name. You ever hear of this mythical fellow?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 2 2011 22:33:36
 
estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Scale Lengths: Bridge vs 12th fr... (in reply to Ruphus

quote:

By the way Stephen, that salesman kept harping on some great San Francisco maker from some years back. He said that the guy got messed up on drugs and was homeless. He said that everyone just loved this guitars, but I can't recall the name. You ever hear of this mythical fellow?


Warren White. Jason McGuire's wife Yaelisa is his step daughter. He died tragically. I know who you must have been talking to at Guitar Solo. He collects Warrens guitars when he can find them.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 2 2011 22:46:20
 
estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Scale Lengths: Bridge vs 12th fr... (in reply to Shawn Brock

quote:

While in SF 2 months ago I think we were both over at the Sunday Flamenco show at The Thirsty Bear. I wish we had gotten the chance to get acquainted. I'm the big ugly blind guy with the yellow guide dog... I talked with the guitarist, Paul, can't recall his last name, but I know he was playing one of your sweet creations, I think he said it was your first flamenco?


Oh that was Gopal Slovanic, he is in Jerez right now with his wife who is Jerezana. He's married to Kina Mendez the singer. I like to call them Sr. and Sra. Mendez.

Gopal has the first guitar I made out of Port Orford Cedar back and sides, far for the first flamenco guitar.

I have some thoughts on sound ports;what they do, how that change a guitar.

Basically I say this:

They give the player more of the sound that is out front of the guitar. When you are behind the guitar you can't hear it the same way a person 5 feet in front hears it.

Soundports don't always give a mass volume increase in every guitar. I have noticed it can change the volume and I have made a few REALLY loud guitars with soundports. In fact Brian Moran's is so loud I'm waiting for him to sue me for hearing damage.

Sound ports don't always change the projection of the guitar. I also think that the guitar has to be good first without the soundport in order for the port to do anything to make the guitar respond to the port. A bad guitar is a bad guitar with or without a port.

Essentially I use the port in the guitar for the player to hear more of the overtones in the guitar and to give the player a richer more complex sound under the ear. The by products are some increase in overall sound and also a kind of openness to the way the harmonics are heard in front of the guitar.

Some players have noted it is easy to get seduced by the sound under your ear, and that they have to work harder to keep vigilant about what the audience in hearing. That seems like an issue not all players would have, depending on how they play.

The sound port is not going to go away, it's an option and i moderates how the guitar sounds. If we can keep working with it and its done right it does add a positive element to the guitar. It's not an either or proposition as in all against or all for the sound port. I hope guitarists learn that it is not a panecea or cure all, a sound port will not make bad guitar turn into a great guitar. But on the other hand a sound port will enhance certain qualities on the guitar.

Like anything else you design into a guitar it has variables depending on the wood the guitar is made of, the main air resonance of the top, the size and placement of the sound port in relation to the size of the front sound hole. Where you place the Soundport has a relationship with how air moves though the instrument. Even the people who study guitar acoustics have not figured it all out yet.

Jason once had a very good in sight on the sound port: He said think of a bamboo flute. If blow through it before you put the first hole in it, the column of air in the flute makes a lower pitch. When you drill the first hole and blow through it again the pitch rises. You changed the air column in the flute. When you think about a guitar and an extra hole you're changing the air column in the guitar, you have to get it in the right place at the right diameter to make the guitar play at it's optimum with that extra hole.

Lucky for us non immortal guitar makers the Gods of Guitar Making have experimented enough before us to give us some rough guidelines to use and work with. And I agree with Anders you can make a hole in the guitar later, but a god guitar will pretty much be a good guitar and great guitar will pretty much be great guitar, but it will have that extra presence of harmonics that comes with the soundport concept. To me the sound port does not radically change the character of the guitar, it just accentuates certain parts of that character more.

If the guitar is classical sounding it will stay that way, if the guitar is flamenco sounding it will stay that way. It will simply change the expression of the harmonics to be more on the outside under the players ear first and also give some volume increace as a byproduct.

I would be interested in Anders or other builders thoughts either for or against what I have laid out.





And if you are ever in town again email me ahead of time and I'll show up at the Thirsty Bear.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 2 2011 22:52:19
 
estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Scale Lengths: Bridge vs 12th fr... (in reply to Shawn Brock

quote:

Making a guitar for a guy is kind of like having a pregnant wife, its a rocky road...


I'd rather deal with a pregnant wife....quite frankly

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 2 2011 22:55:00
 
Shawn Brock

 

Posts: 271
Joined: Sep. 19 2011
From: Louisville KY

RE: Scale Lengths: Bridge vs 12th fr... (in reply to Ruphus

Gosh I write to much... Sorry bout this.

As I read through this thread again I'm reminded of an earlier experience with a couple of steel string makers. I owned a guitar by one of them and just loved the hell out of it. I had went to his shop and talked about every aspect of construction for this guitar. I would visit every week or so to put my hands on the progress of the guitar. During this time he told me a lot of his practices of tuning tops, shaving braces and so on, and I began to believe that his way was the best and only way to make a guitar.

A few years later I had moved across country and I needed to have new frets put in. I called the maker and he informed me that it would be months before he could do the job. He recommended another luthier and said, he will do a great job. I had heard of this fellow and had played on some of his work. Indeed he was a great maker.

When I took my guitar in for the refret he asked me if I would like to see some of the guitars he was building. He had 1 which was strung up before finishing and another which was finished and ready for shipping. I played both guitars and my jaw dropped. They were great work. When I asked him about tuning tops, he said, "I don't tune my tops. I measure, and use my hands to tell me what I need to know. 2 tops are never exactly the same and they will both need to be treated differently. I never use just one formula." Needless to say I was shocked. Here were 2 luthiers, both great and building instruments at $8000 each, both had equal products, but both had different ideas about building.

The funny thing was that they both respected one another and both tried new things. Its kind of funny how a few of the flamenco and classical builders refuse to see the importance of newer ideas like soundports. I guess a lot of folks in the violin world are the same way though. I remember when carbon fiber bows came out. I was the first person I knew to own a Coda Bow. They were shunned for quite some time. Now they are becoming almost common. Sorry again, I'll shut up now!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 2 2011 23:03:22
 
estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Scale Lengths: Bridge vs 12th fr... (in reply to Ruphus

quote:

I was the first person I knew to own a Coda Bow. They were shunned for quite some time. Now they are becoming almost common.
\

I play the cello, I've been tempted to get a carbon fibre bow. Yo get a lot of bow for your money. I've payed a few and I liked them. Of course I can make myself a bow too, but when to get the time!

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 2 2011 23:32:18
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: Scale Lengths: Bridge vs 12th fr... (in reply to jshelton5040

quote:

Of course I'm just a fat old man with tinnitis and arthritis so what do I know?


John Shelton,
There are many ways of being a fat old man. Your posts are always interesting and you never try to use your wisdom and experience to let other builders down.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 3 2011 8:05:27
 
Arash

Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: Scale Lengths: Bridge vs 12th fr... (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

quote:

ORIGINAL: FullMetalGuitarist

Are there any benefits of the 660mm over the 650?


650 is for little girls. 660+ is for real men. My guitar is 670.


i have an old 640 guitar.

based on you your classification, it must be for transsexual iranians or even worse than that

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 3 2011 10:53:41
 
XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005
 

RE: Scale Lengths: Bridge vs 12th fr... (in reply to Arash

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arash

based on you your classification, it must be for transsexual iranians or even worse than that


or a midget transsexual iranian
I seriously prefer 65, mainly because of the first position chords. 64, never seen a guitar like that, but given im a small guy, id maybe prefer that over 65 as well?
ps: dude i hate my midget hands! if i ever see a child again with smaller hands playing better than me, i swear i will FREAK OUT!

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Фламенко
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 3 2011 12:03:59
 
Arash

Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: Scale Lengths: Bridge vs 12th fr... (in reply to XXX

quote:

ORIGINAL: Deniz

but given im a small guy, id maybe prefer that over 65 as well?



i don't think so.
650 is best imo.
I am small too ( 1.72m ) but the 640 guitar is not as comfortable as my other 650 guitars for me.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 3 2011 12:19:35
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: Scale Lengths: Bridge vs 12th fr... (in reply to XXX

quote:

ORIGINAL: Deniz

dude i hate my midget hands! if i ever see a child again with smaller hands playing better than me, i swear i will FREAK OUT!


In this case I strongly recommend strict avoidance of any links referring to Prof. Chen´s pupils!

Ruphus
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 3 2011 12:20:18
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