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Scale Lengths: Bridge vs 12th fret locations, vs. neck length   You are logged in as Guest
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JuanDaBomb

Posts: 189
Joined: May 18 2011
 

Scale Lengths: Bridge vs 12th fret l... 

Hi,

I'm trying to get a better grasp on the dimensional changes associated with different scale lengths, and I was hoping you guys could enlighten me

I understand that scale length = distance from nut to saddle. Easy enough. And I understand that fret spacing also changes (becomes larger with a longer scale).

But I am not clear on how the change in scale length is implemented into the dimensions of a guitar.

In my mind I see the variables are bridge location, neck length (distance from where the heel contacts the body to the nut), and the length of the fretboard.

If you take a 650mm scale as the reference point and you want to increase to 660mm, I imagine you can move the bridge rearward, or increase the neck length (moving the nut further away), or a combination of the two.

Which way is it typically done (or which way is preferable)?

I vaguely remember reading somewhere that the 12th fret's ideal position is at the heel/body contact point. Assuming that's even true, is this point then used as a reference for building the scale length into a guitar?

Thanks!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 25 2011 8:50:09
 
FullMetalGuitarist

Posts: 88
Joined: Aug. 22 2011
 

RE: Scale Lengths: Bridge vs 12th fr... (in reply to JuanDaBomb

Are there any benefits of the 660mm over the 650?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 25 2011 10:30:34
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: Scale Lengths: Bridge vs 12th fr... (in reply to JuanDaBomb

Juan:
Standard procedure is to put 12th fret at where the neck meets the body. This means that the fingerboard will be 325mm at where the body starts on a 650mm scale and it´ll be 330mm on a 660mm scale.
The distance from the body to the headstock will be a little bit longer, typically 5mm because if the nut.

Fullmetal.
Its impossible to answer a question like yours. But, IMO there´s no advantage. Others will say other things and the whole subject has been discussed a thousand times over the years. Use the forums search funcion and you´ll find a lot of discussions. I personally play and prefer 650mm scale and a 53mm nut. But thats just me. I build 650 and 660mm scales

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 25 2011 10:59:44
 
FullMetalGuitarist

Posts: 88
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RE: Scale Lengths: Bridge vs 12th fr... (in reply to Anders Eliasson

quote:

the whole subject has been discussed a thousand times over the years. Use the forums search funcion and you´ll find a lot of discussions


Ay ay , captain.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 25 2011 14:38:46
 
keith

Posts: 1108
Joined: Sep. 29 2009
From: Back in Boston

RE: Scale Lengths: Bridge vs 12th fr... (in reply to JuanDaBomb

the 666 scale length has the advantage over the other scale lengths when one is trying to play stairway to heaven backwards. from what i have read the shorter scales seem to work well with those who have some hand pathology.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 25 2011 16:47:38
 
Stephen Eden

 

Posts: 914
Joined: Apr. 12 2008
From: UK

RE: Scale Lengths: Bridge vs 12th fr... (in reply to JuanDaBomb

Yup the 12th fret lies at the point where the body meets the neck. The bridge moves and the neck changes length.

The length of the string can change alot about the sound it produces. Typically you will see this as the string gets longer, the note will be lower at the same tension. Allowing more brightness. Look up Michael thames' dresden.

The Dresden has a 2 scale length of 650 and 900. The E string, which is now on the 900mm scale length, is as thick and has the same reaction as the D on a standard guitar! (less Thuddy than a thick bass string

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 25 2011 18:33:42
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
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RE: Scale Lengths: Bridge vs 12th fr... (in reply to JuanDaBomb

I dont give a fart about these diferences in scale length. Firts of all its 1cm. And what matters is how you balance the guitar when you build it. The guitar with the strongest and brightest trebles I´ve ever made is a 650mm scale.



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 25 2011 20:52:14
 
estebanana

Posts: 9410
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RE: Scale Lengths: Bridge vs 12th fr... (in reply to JuanDaBomb

quote:

I understand that scale length = distance from nut to saddle. Easy enough. And I understand that fret spacing also changes (becomes larger with a longer scale).


Just to clarify: Scale length and string length are two different things.

Scale length the absolute distance from the front of the nut to the middle of the twelvth fret x 2. A scale length is an ideal measurement system for dividing the string into a series of intervals of half steps.

String length is the distance from the front of the nut to the middle of the saddle. String length is longer than scale length. To make the scale play in tune the saddle is located a few mm further away from where the actual scale length ends. This is called compensation.

Compensation means that the string is made slightly longer to compensate for the part of the string that will be come less active in vibrating when the string is pressed to the fingerboard. Some people think that this is because the string is made shorter when it is pressed down thus decreasing the length of the string making it play sharp. This is not actually what is happening. What is happening is that the string is being made shorter because when it is pressed down the first several thousandths of an inch of the string on both sides, at the fret and saddle, are being rendered more unflexible than the rest of the middle area of the string.

When the string is pressed it tightens the string and pins it next to the fret. The pinning action in relation to the size of the core of the string makes the string much stiffer right next to the fret than the middle of the string. The true vibrating length of the string is made shorter because the string does not vibrate starting at the fret, but slightly in front of the fret. The end of the string next to your finger becomes stiffer for a thousanth of an inch like a tiny piece of pipe. It is right after that tiny stiff area that the string begins to vibrate.

The string core is different diameters on different strings. D strings have the smallest core of the over wound strings. The smaller core is more flexible and the D string needs less compensation than the other over wound strings. The A and E strings have thicker cores and are less flexible so they need more compensation than the D string. The nylon G string is the largest of all the strings, it is even thicker than the cores of the A and E strings. The G string has the most intonation problems because when it is pressed down it becomes less flexible than the other strings and it thus has less vibrating length. That is why the G string can tend to play sharp. The B and E nylon strings are more flexible than the G string. They need less compensation.

Moving the saddle a few mm away from the end of the scale length averages out these differences when the string is pressed down. Making the string length longer than the scale length compensates for that small stiff area at the fret giving the string some extra slack when it is pressed down. The slack allows the string to remains at a constant length that fits the intervals of the true scale set up on the guitar.

I think you can make good guitars for flamenco with all the scale lengths between 650 and 660. Good trebles or basses can be had on shorter scales or longer scales and vice versa. It's just a matter of having a feel for how thin to make the top for that scale and plantilla etc.

Just wanted to clarify the notion that scale length and string length are do distinct things and why. I hope that was not too confusing.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 25 2011 21:48:42
 
estebanana

Posts: 9410
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RE: Scale Lengths: Bridge vs 12th fr... (in reply to JuanDaBomb

Also all this business of long scales being harder to play goes out the window when you put a cejilla on the first fret. How much do you play open? Is the longer scale really that difficult?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 25 2011 22:06:25
 
estebanana

Posts: 9410
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Scale Lengths: Bridge vs 12th fr... (in reply to JuanDaBomb

quote:

I vaguely remember reading somewhere that the 12th fret's ideal position is at the heel/body contact point. Assuming that's even true, is this point then used as a reference for building the scale length into a guitar?


That pint is reference for sure. But the scale length determines to some extent where the sound hole goes. The maker has to think about where the 19th fret will break at the sound hole.

Basically, and I think this may have been implied already, the 12th fret is a pivot point in the design. The 12th fret is at the body neck join and the neck length and sound hole positions are calculated by this. It automatically moves the bridge to a certain location on the belly and makes the nut a certain distance from the body neck join.

But the issue of compensation of the strings determines the actual location of the saddle. Remember a few mm past the conceptual end of the scale length? And in addition to this remember the sound hole gets located according to how the maker wishes the 19th fret to break at the top of the sound hole.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 25 2011 22:20:02
 
Ricardo

Posts: 15030
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From: Washington DC

RE: Scale Lengths: Bridge vs 12th fr... (in reply to FullMetalGuitarist

quote:

ORIGINAL: FullMetalGuitarist

Are there any benefits of the 660mm over the 650?


650 is for little girls. 660+ is for real men. My guitar is 670.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 25 2011 23:22:41
 
TANúñez

Posts: 2559
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
From: TEXAS

RE: Scale Lengths: Bridge vs 12th fr... (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

650 is for little girls. 660+ is for real men. My guitar is 670.




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Tom Núñez
www.instagram.com/tanunezguitars
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 26 2011 1:02:55
 
estebanana

Posts: 9410
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RE: Scale Lengths: Bridge vs 12th fr... (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

650 is for little girls. 660+ is for real men. My guitar is 670.


670mm, oh yeah we luthiers we call that one The Penis Extension Scale.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 26 2011 3:55:29
 
Anders Eliasson

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RE: Scale Lengths: Bridge vs 12th fr... (in reply to JuanDaBomb

Small brain = large scale.....

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 26 2011 7:14:29
 
JuanDaBomb

Posts: 189
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RE: Scale Lengths: Bridge vs 12th fr... (in reply to JuanDaBomb

Thank you guys, for the explanations. I really do appreciate it And thanks, Stephen, for all the details. The more info, the better, always!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 26 2011 10:21:01
 
Stephen Eden

 

Posts: 914
Joined: Apr. 12 2008
From: UK

RE: Scale Lengths: Bridge vs 12th fr... (in reply to JuanDaBomb

Anders - I was just explaining what effect string length has on the over all sound it can make. Of course not much if any audiable difference can be measured from a 660 to a 650. I even made a demonstration so show how drastic a change it would need to be! I did not meen to offend your most humble of opinions.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 26 2011 12:20:58
 
Tom Blackshear

 

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RE: Scale Lengths: Bridge vs 12th fr... (in reply to Anders Eliasson

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson

I dont give a fart about these diferences in scale length. Firts of all its 1cm. And what matters is how you balance the guitar when you build it. The guitar with the strongest and brightest trebles I´ve ever made is a 650mm scale.




Anders,

I appreciate your talent and input to this list. And you are a better player than I, as I have lost most of my playing technique over the years, with my building practice.

But I have a problem with sound posts and I think it is justified by listening to this guitar. My wife says the sound hurts her ears. I agree as the port throws sound out in wider directions instead of the guitar projecting a quality tonal response to your playing techniques. I think the recording comes off as being a little too shrill sounding instead of more, vowel tone, like a human voice.

I can imagine how much better the guitar would sound without the sound port; just my opinion. I would like to hear the same guitar with the port covered up. And I understand that not all guitars are the same but the sound issue is one that should be judged by traditional values before it is turned loose as acceptable to a wider audience of participation.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 26 2011 15:39:39
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: Scale Lengths: Bridge vs 12th fr... (in reply to JuanDaBomb

Tom Blackshear.

Get of my back please. Guitars sound like that in Spain. We have tiled stone floors and often tiles on the walls.

I know that you will never be able to understand soundports. But it doesnt mean they dont work. They just dont fit into your way of building instruments and especially, they dont fit into your extremely orthodocks conservative brick head.

Also, dont turn this into a soundport discussion. You´ve been there, you´ve trashed around in the subject.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 26 2011 16:15:28
 
Gimar Yestra

 

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From: The Netherlands

RE: Scale Lengths: Bridge vs 12th fr... (in reply to JuanDaBomb

free hugs for everyone

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 26 2011 16:53:32
 
Tom Blackshear

 

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RE: Scale Lengths: Bridge vs 12th fr... (in reply to Anders Eliasson

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson

Tom Blackshear.

....... Guitars sound like that in Spain. We have tiled stone floors and often tiles on the walls.



I appreciate your point here but I've addressed the sound port on the guitar you built, not your building talent, and I remember in another post that you said to express my opinion by saying that it was my opinion, which I did.

You put the guitar up and I addressed what you presented. And scale lengths can be discussed forever before a builder comes up with the information that not all guitar top designs will be compatible with the same scale. I think Steve mentioned it.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 26 2011 16:54:38
 
estebanana

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RE: Scale Lengths: Bridge vs 12th fr... (in reply to JuanDaBomb

I think the guitar sound reflects the fact that it was recorded on a camera, not in a studio. I can hear through silvery sound to the core of the sound which the recording is not giving full justice. I doubt it has anything to do with the sound port.

We should all remember that recordings are not true reads of a guitar's actual sound. recordings on less than studio grade devices or in good studio conditions only give you a map of the sound, you can't really hear a guitar unless you are in front of it live and lucky enough to have the guitar played by someone who can bring out the sound. I usually reserve judgment on guitar video recordings, unless the guitar sounds like it has nothing to offer. Anders guitar in this video is a good guitar, but I feel the recording does not show it to it's optimum sound quality. I would like to play this guitar myself.

I think Anders is pretty brave for not only putting his guitars in public video, but playing them himself. I can't say anything bad about either the guitar or the player.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 26 2011 18:04:57
 
Anders Eliasson

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RE: Scale Lengths: Bridge vs 12th fr... (in reply to JuanDaBomb

The idea of posting this video was not to talk about soundports but to show that a 650 scale guitar can have plenty of high end and strong trebles.
Talking about soundports was to throw mud on the subject and this Mr. Blackshear very often does when a soundport is on a guitar. Most probably because his oldmastersalt on the fingers tecnique doesnt work here. But it only means that a tecnique doesnt work and not that a guitar is good or bad

I agree with Stephen that the soundport has nothing or very little to do with that. If anyone is interested they can listen to the video I uploaded of a Negra and a blanca. The blanca with a soundport and the negra without. I think that despite the lack of recording quality you can hear that both have a very similar voice, and that the soundport is not doing any kind of woodoo to the sound. Please bear in mind that both guitars are totally new with strings on for 2 - 3 days and that both will devellop a lot more personality and caracter. They are both 650mm scale

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=181601&p=1&tmode=1&smode=1

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 26 2011 19:29:33
 
Tom Blackshear

 

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RE: Scale Lengths: Bridge vs 12th fr... (in reply to estebanana

quote:

I think Anders is pretty brave for not only putting his guitars in public video, but playing them himself. I can't say anything bad about either the guitar or the player.


There is no reason for Anders to take offense for my mention of the sound, which I believe was affected by the sound port, to some extent. I think a better comparison would be to record just one guitar, with the same audio conditions, with and without the sound port, and see what the difference is. It's easy enough to plug the port when comparing the two.

I've seen some variations on earlier models, years before any of this got started; but in slightly alternate forms rather than a distinct hole. None of those variations lasted long, but I'm always open to newer ways to do things, if they work.

It's not so much the equipment used to record a guitar but the right adjustment to the equipment. This recording was on a small camera about 20 feet off stage: The guitar had no sound port but its sound carried all over the concert hall.



This was recorded with a guitar that was originally designed for a longer scale and adjusted to a 65 centimeter scale length, As it was, the BOX had to be shortened and the top's design fine-tuned for a shorter scale. But the design, itself, was left intact, just fine-tuned a bit to comply with the shorter scale length.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 26 2011 20:56:35
 
estebanana

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Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Scale Lengths: Bridge vs 12th fr... (in reply to JuanDaBomb

Tom,
If you want to rail against the sound port why don't you go fight with Robert Ruck who made it popular? He's more your stature as a guitar maker, you should go pick on him and see how he responds. I wager he won't like it one bit. You are under the delusion you are being critical, when in fact it's quite transparent you're throwing up obstacles to someone else's guitar making practice with your opinions. They are only your opinions and your opinions are not facts.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 26 2011 22:22:44
 
NenadK

Posts: 137
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RE: Scale Lengths: Bridge vs 12th fr... (in reply to estebanana

quote:

I think the guitar sound reflects the fact that it was recorded on a camera, not in a studio. I can hear through silvery sound to the core of the sound which the recording is not giving full justice. I doubt it has anything to do with the sound port.

We should all remember that recordings are not true reads of a guitar's actual sound. recordings on less than studio grade devices or in good studio conditions only give you a map of the sound, you can't really hear a guitar unless you are in front of it live and lucky enough to have the guitar played by someone who can bring out the sound. I usually reserve judgment on guitar video recordings, unless the guitar sounds like it has nothing to offer. Anders guitar in this video is a good guitar, but I feel the recording does not show it to it's optimum sound quality. I would like to play this guitar myself.


I agree. I think the difference in sound caused by the soundport if it is even there would be far too subtle to hear on a recording like this. I hear some of the same harshness that Tom is talking about but I'm convinced it's the camera recording. It's hard to explain but to me it sounds like that brittleness you hear when you hear someone speak on a camera as well. People sound pretty different in real life.

Also, compare this recording to the one that Geert fellow made in Ander's shop. Night and day difference and I doubt it's because of the guitar.

To be honest I don't know why luthiers on the foro even bother with camera recordings. They can only make guitars sound worse than they actually are. I'd much rather hear a quality sound clip.


quote:

There is no reason for Anders to take offense for my mention of the sound, which I believe was affected by the sound port, to some extent. I think a better comparison would be to record just one guitar, with the same audio conditions, with and without the sound port, and see what the difference is. It's easy enough to plug the port when comparing the two.


I believe Jason did this a while back and as I recall everyone pretty much concluded the guitar sounded slightly louder but that there was no real difference in sound quality. I'm also pretty sure you were involved in that discussion as well but I can't remember.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 26 2011 22:54:03
 
estebanana

Posts: 9410
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RE: Scale Lengths: Bridge vs 12th fr... (in reply to JuanDaBomb

Jason measured the sound of some of mine and some of Glenn Canin's guitars with the soundport open and closed. He did the tests with his professional sound equipment and came up with objective conclusions about the sound when measured by a very accurate state of the art recording system.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 26 2011 23:18:36
 
Andy Culpepper

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From: NY, USA

RE: Scale Lengths: Bridge vs 12th fr... (in reply to JuanDaBomb

My new standard scale length is 655 mm because it balances well with the slightly larger body I'm using now. Not much difference left-hand wise but to me any extra room in the upper frets can't hurt.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 26 2011 23:52:28
 
odinz

Posts: 407
Joined: May 26 2010
From: Sarpsborg,Norway

RE: Scale Lengths: Bridge vs 12th fr... (in reply to Tom Blackshear

I should probably not say anything more about the soundport, and this is very stupid, but...

I think the soundport is great, It actually doesnt do anything drastic, but I think it enhances some properties I want from a guitar...

My Anders guitar sounds nowhere near harsh, but it does have a nice growl, and the volume is incredible, when it was totally new, the volume wasnt so loud and the sound wasnt so big and bouncy, but i allready loved the sound more than any guitar I have played. the best thing is that it is also very sweet, and well, it is that too.

The guitars I have compared it with, are guitars with no soundport at all..
Fransisco Navarro student model, Jose Ortega cheapo classical guitar and a Philip Woodfield grand concert classical guitar, in comparison to those, the anders does not sound harsh at all. To me the soundport seems to make the sound fill the room more evenly, and much more easily, I dont think it affects the tone much at all, even though i havent been able to test 2 Anders guitars side by side..

The video sounds harsh because of the quality of the recording.



Anyways, sorry for mixing in, in all of this. hope i didnt do anything nasty now!!

btw, for scale length I dont care much at all... 650 is standard, so i play 650, but I guess it is more about the fingers of the players or whatever.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 27 2011 2:17:16
 
at_leo_87

Posts: 3055
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From: Boston, MA, U.S.A

RE: Scale Lengths: Bridge vs 12th fr... (in reply to JuanDaBomb

all this talk about soundports made me curious about a quick little test i did awhile ago. i don't have good equipment like jason but i think the results are still there.

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=114322&appid=&p=&mpage=1&key=sound%2Cport%2Ctest&tmode=&smode=&s=#114322

listening to the results again, damn, now i think i want a soundport in my culpepper. im not sure andy would like me drilling crude holes into his guitar though.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 27 2011 3:05:11
 
odinz

Posts: 407
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From: Sarpsborg,Norway

RE: Scale Lengths: Bridge vs 12th fr... (in reply to at_leo_87

maybe you should get Andy to drill crude holes in your guitar instead

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 27 2011 3:22:45
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