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RE: soundportparty in my patio (in reply to Anders Eliasson)
Every guitar that I have built has soundport. I add the soundport after I have built and strung the guitar. I start with a small hole and play for a while, then make the hole bigger gradually, playing and observing how the sound changes.
IMO a soundport makes the guitar more like a blanca; more sensitive, dirtier and less nasal sound with less echo or church effect.
These characteristics grow as the soundport gets bigger and at one point the sound gets so dirty that you begin to hear all kinds of nose (such as nails hitting the strings) that makes the voice unpleasant.
I personally like the sound of a guitar with a medium size soundhole, however "sometimes" I miss a more lyrical and ringing sound. So I play a soundportless guitar for a day before switching back.
Moral of the story: Soundport gives the guitar a certain characteristic that you might or might not like. So don't do this experiment at home with you new DeVoe.
RE: soundportparty in my patio (in reply to Tom Blackshear)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Tom Blackshear I'm going to risk the wrath of Bob Ruck in saying that his ported guitars are not louder than mine, but what a player hears in my guitars is a sonorus quality of the Spanish idiom.
Brune has a guitar with ports that he experimented with. I played that guitar and thought it sounded like an inverted vacuum cleaner; loud and noisy but no real quality of sound. Sorry Richard :-) I love Richard's traditional guitars.
No offense Tom, I would never bring it up but since you are comparing your guitars to others and making such remarks, I could be forced then to mention the fact that I have compared one of your guitars to Glenn Canin's and both ported and not ported......
I will spare the details..... because it would be rude.
quote:
And one other thing I've noticed with real loud up-close guitars is that cantaors don't like it in their face that much.
What cantaors are you refering to? The 2 cantaors that work the most in the US, both have raved about Glenn's guitars when I have accompanied them. Jesus Montoya...... "What a ****ing guitar". Last month in Dallas and Felix de Lola., "de puta madre",......just about every time we work together which is often. Miguel Rosendo loved the sound of my Glenn Canin blanca and we did a tientos/tangos that brought the house down a couple of years back. No lack of inspiration there. Wow, Miguel, that guy is one hell of a great singer.
How is that for a sweeping judgement? Be nice please.
Anders your guitars are beautiful. Keep doing your thing. I want one one day. You are one brave luthier to do what you are doing and doing in Granada of all places. Ballsy. I love that. Guitars often take on the personal traits of their makers. If that is the case with you, the must roar.
RE: soundportparty in my patio (in reply to Mike_Kinny)
I must say after reading this i am very courious...i know Grisha had one Jason has one..there must be a reason...i would be courious to play one.... i imagine is like an acustic monitor right next to your ear...it might not make it louder overall but it will as far as you can hear (and really your guitar is only as good as what you can hear)...and thats important..i mean if you can hear yourself loud and clear you play better ...feels better to play..just like its better when u have a nice loud and clear monitor in front of you when performing...so whatever it is, if done tastefully and it works ...i imagine its not a minus...the guys that play them and have been playing them a while in all kinds of eviroments are best qualified to make that call
i can also see what Tom is saying..just cause u splitting the sound in 2 and now it escapes trough 2 holes and u can hear it louder ...dosent mean it necesarely is..is the equivalent of having 2 holes on a botlle...so while when trying to poure wine it comes out both holes..it is still the same amount of wine that the botlle can hold that comes out trough now 2 holes instead of one.....it would have to be...everything we know about physics would support that
RE: soundportparty in my patio (in reply to Florian)
quote:
just cause u splitting the sound in 2 and now it escapes trough 2 holes and u can hear it louder ...dosent mean it necesarely is..is the equivalent of having 2 holes on a botlle...so while when trying to poure wine it comes out both holes..it is still the same amount of wine that the botlle can hold that comes out trough now 2 holes instead of one.....it would have to be...everything we know about physics would support that
I read a comment somewhere, I think from Ruck, perhaps second-hand, (it's been a while and I can't remember), in which it was claimed that a guitar with a soundport in its side exhibited a measurable increase in volume at the sound hole (in the top) when the port was uncorked and a corresponding decrease when plugged. Not enough is known about guitar physics to explain why this would occur exactly; that particular commentator hypothesized the second aperture increased the guitar's air-pumping efficiency.
The observation is interesting regardless of the mechanics involved.
u right it might be...i dont know..i am sure theres things i dont know about the science of how sound works and comes out ...but just at a quic look and simple science to me would suggest that ( and my past experience in trying to drink a can of beer trough 2 holes ....i didnt get more beer )...however i will be the first to admit i have no idea what i am talking about when it comes to how the guitar sound is projected...i guess it is possible... if thats the case il get one to play and one to drink beer out of
RE: soundportparty in my patio (in reply to JasonMcGuire)
quote:
ORIGINAL: JasonMcGuire
quote:
ORIGINAL: Tom Blackshear I'm going to risk the wrath of Bob Ruck in saying that his ported guitars are not louder than mine, but what a player hears in my guitars is a sonorus quality of the Spanish idiom.
Brune has a guitar with ports that he experimented with. I played that guitar and thought it sounded like an inverted vacuum cleaner; loud and noisy but no real quality of sound. Sorry Richard :-) I love Richard's traditional guitars.
No offense Tom, I would never bring it up but since you are comparing your guitars to others and making such remarks, I could be forced then to mention the fact that I have compared one of your guitars to Glenn Canin's and both ported and not ported......
I will spare the details..... because it would be rude.
quote:
I know Glen and he is a fine person, eager to please in all that he builds. A collector friend of mine has one of his guitars and he loves it. I wish him the very best, and as for your music, well, what can I say, I like your Bulerias :-)
And if you have some fair and constructive advice, I'm always open to listen.
RE: soundportparty in my patio (in reply to Florian)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Florian
i can also see what Tom is saying..just cause u splitting the sound in 2 and now it escapes trough 2 holes and u can hear it louder ...dosent mean it necesarely is..is the equivalent of having 2 holes on a botlle...so while when trying to poure wine it comes out both holes..it is still the same amount of wine that the botlle can hold that comes out trough now 2 holes instead of one.....it would have to be...everything we know about physics would support that
IMo
Except we aren't talking about wine. Liquid sounds the same regardless of the frequency of the bottle. The difference with a guitar is that we are dealing with sound not liquid, and also the "bottle" or guitar IS the thing resposible for the production of that sound........ or at least half responsible. The human playing it gets some credit for the sound. And here the human is not in top form, but thats another matter.
When the frequency at which the guitar resonates is raised...... think of an Udu clay pot drum. It is a pot with 2 holes in it. As one of the holes are uncovered is raises in pitch according to how big the hole is. That change is what we are discussing here. When that frequency is raised it will affect the overtones that a guitar produces. Could be good, could be bad.
If you are older and it IS SCIENTIFICALLY PROVEN that older males have a dimnished capacity to hear HIGH FREQUENCY audio content. Some older males can't hear anything above 15khz. If that person played a lot of rock music in front of a Marshall Stack like me when I was younger, then forget about it. If that person also played drumset really loud for many many years........ you get the idea. Females retain the ability to hear high frequencies and also children often hear WAY up into the high 20 khz range regardless of sex. 28khz is what I remember. Take that into consideration please.
Other things that affect sound are of course the age of the string. New strings often sound more crisp and clear and they certainly intonate better, although the strings stretch like crazy. Once they are settled the do intonate differently across the fretboard.
I like a brighter sound. I play in a lot of noisy places. Brighter means I hear myself better. If the frequency of the guitar body is raised then it will certainly change some of that upper harmonic resonation. It will sound brighter. As an audio engineer, I can tell you for sure that when something is brighter and louder it appears to be closer to the listener. Closer, more intimate. That seems like a good thing to me. This is what audio engineers are talking about when they mention placing the audio in a particular "sound field". We create the illusion of things in a room by manipulating EQ (frequency) and volume and yes reverb. I like bright. Although, too bright is terrible. Perhaps some hear ports as too bright, just as some don't like the sound of new strings. It is something that each person has to decide for themselves. Even if I am halucinating that the guitar is louder and better sounding with a port and it makes me play better, hasn't the luthier succeded in his job to create an instrument that inspires its player more?
When you chose a tool to make your guitars, do you choose the most asthetically pleasing tool, or the BEST tool? The one that feels right in your hand. The one that gives the better results? Hmmmmm.
Our sense of what is asthetically pleasing is really dictated by years and years of conditioning and those things change over generations. In the baroque a heavier body type was seen as more beautiful and today things are the opposite....for the most part. Were the baroque period humans wrong about what was beautiful? Or was it an opinion based on the tastes of that time?
Try a guitar with ports if you can. If it sounds like an "inverted vacuum cleaner" move on. If it inspires you....... you know what to do and when to do it.
Since I have been in the mood for making videos today here is another attempt at showing, if any, the sonic differences of ports. I only personally hear a difference in the arpeggios when the mic is in the "players position"...... that alone is good enough for me. In real life the difference is MUCH more dramatic........ probably because the sound goes directly to the ear instead of being converted to an electrical impulse traveling through a rubber encased wire into another device that amplifies that signal before turning the signal into 1's and 0's and then further manipulating it so that there are actually fewer 1's and 0's to make it easier to transfer on the internet, ultimately destined to go back through a computer chip that turns those 1's and 0's back into an electrical signal that will travel back through a wire into another signal amplifier only to finish this SICK journey through a magnet with a coiled wire connected to a paper cone that turns it back into....................................music?
Does that sound crazy or what? Soundports make WAY more sense than that and yet we accept recorded music as music despite its obvious problems. Either way both situations boil down to how we interpret sounds with our brains. Psychoacoustics......
I hope the video does some good for those of you trying to decide one way or the other.
And if you have some fair and constructive advice, I'm always open to listen.
Hi Tom..... not much advice because I think your guitars are fantastic. I just wouldn't compare a notable guys guitars to a hoover vac. You are a Texas guy and that alone makes you OK in my book.
.....Guitars are amazing things in their most traditional state and it is also amazing that some makers still strive to push ahead to improve things or simply just to be "different." Had the makers that Tom admires most not strived for something "better" they would not have the priviledge of being his favorites.
RE: soundportparty in my patio (in reply to Mike_Kinny)
wow i am sold !!! i want one !! next week...i dont care what others hear il be more inspired if i can hear myself better and there was really no minus that i could hear at all in sound quality anyway....a guitar to me is only as good as I can hear it to be...i get the feeling this will be a common thing in the future
my next question ...i have a friend that has a guitar shop and could do it for me, he knows what hes doing....can it be done once the guitar has allready been build.. ? Anders anything i should tell him before i ask him to do it, any details or dimenshions or things he should consider for florange ?
obviously id prefer u to do it but it would be expensive and take long to send it there and back
thanks Jason that was a great experiment...all I needed satisfied my curiousity as always a million words cant describe what 5 seconds of audio can...its hard to imagine arguing with that experiment
RE: soundportparty in my patio (in reply to Florian)
Yes Florian the can be done after the guitar was built. Both of the ones I play with ports were done by Glenn afterwards with NO reinforcement inside. I am notoriously rough on my guitars, but if you are worried about it, Anders can explain how to reinforce the area around the port.
RE: soundportparty in my patio (in reply to Florian)
i posted your youtube on my guitar maker mate facebook page i hope u dont mind...i remember he suggested a soundport before but i remember quickly dismissing it because its just not a common thing in flamenco and like everyone else...had fears and reservations...but if it works it works i cant argue with my ears
Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A
RE: soundportparty in my patio (in reply to Mike_Kinny)
i have a feeling everyone is going to come back next week posting pictures of their new sound port. maybe myself included. still a little nervous about a diy job...
Posts: 597
Joined: Jan. 14 2007
From: York, England
RE: soundportparty in my patio (in reply to JasonMcGuire)
quote:
If you are older and it IS SCIENTIFICALLY PROVEN that older males have a dimnished capacity to hear HIGH FREQUENCY audio content. Some older males can't hear anything above 15khz. If that person played a lot of rock music in front of a Marshall Stack like me when I was younger, then forget about it. If that person also played drumset really loud for many many years........ you get the idea. Females retain the ability to hear high frequencies and also children often hear WAY up into the high 20 khz range regardless of sex. 28khz is what I remember. Take that into consideration please.
Just to clarify this:
The normal hearing range for humans is about 20hz to 20 Khz. Thats for a teenager with perfect hearing. Sound at higher frequencies is known as ultrasound. After that its downhill all the way as far as the higher frequencies are concerned. The difference between male and female hearing loss is very small and is not really a relevant factor. Basically, anyone over the age of 50 will be lucky to hear any frequency over 14Khz.
And if you're a luthier you should use ear protection when using noisy machines, because this will only make things worse.
Also we have to bear in mind that the ear does not have a linear frequency response. This means that we hear different frequencies at different loudness even if the amplitude (volume) is the same.
There's a lot more to tell abouit human hearing, but what it means is that sound is a subjective thing. What you hear is not exactly what I hear.
Which is a good thing eh? life would be pretty dull if we were all alike
RE: soundportparty in my patio (in reply to Mike_Kinny)
Sounds all good to me, but I´m carrying my guitar a lot with me... And I always use trams and subway.... Sometimes it gets a hit. Thats the reason why I use the expensive hardcase... I have another guitar that fell in the subway and got a crack on the top, right under the fretboard left to the soundhole. It was no hard crash...but the guitar didn't fit perfectly in the case (that was a cheap one) and... it just happened.
If that would happen to my new Carpio.... with a soundport that destabilize it... I guess it would break completely. So,.. Im interested in the soundport, but its too dangerous for me. :/ That means..no soundport for me, till I have enough money for buying a second professional model.
RE: soundportparty in my patio (in reply to JasonMcGuire)
quote:
ORIGINAL: JasonMcGuire
quote:
ORIGINAL: Florian
quote:
And if you have some fair and constructive advice, I'm always open to listen.
Hi Tom..... not much advice because I think your guitars are fantastic. I just wouldn't compare a notable guys guitars to a hoover vac. You are a Texas guy and that alone makes you OK in my book.
.....Guitars are amazing things in their most traditional state and it is also amazing that some makers still strive to push ahead to improve things or simply just to be "different." Had the makers that Tom admires most not strived for something "better" they would not have the priviledge of being his favorites.
Bob Ruck once me that I needed to have an electronic guide for tuning my guitars and I said that I had been tuning my guitar sound far too long to learn the electronic ways of tuning. I felt comfortable that if the guitar tone projects well then the guitar was a serviceable instrument and didn't need additional electronic helps or ports in it.
My ideal is to make the traditional guitar better by fine-tuning the top to its maximum level of balance and harmony. My latest guitars are my best work as I haven't stopped learning these techniques that I started with back in the late 70's.
And I didn't say Richard's guitar sounded like a Hoover :-)
BTW He has one of these types out with a professional player who is a world traveler and he loves it. But my point is that I'm a strict traditionalist and I'm not going to monkey with the aesthetics of my guitars since I find the beauty of the aesthetics to be just right for me. Everything about the traditional Spanish style guitar is taken into consideration with this builder. This is my life's work and it will remain the same for me. I build what I think is the highest level of art and find that a good percentage of players agree with it.
My point here is that there are other ways to make a guitar louder without destroying these aesthetics that have grown in perfection over the centuries to be an art form. But then again, we have so much subjective art, which to me, might be deemed as ugly but to someone else, it might be just what they are looking for.
My traditon goes back 50 years and this is what art is to me.
RE: soundportparty in my patio (in reply to Mike_Kinny)
Instead of gluing two crossgrain strips to both sides of the port, couldn't you also take a thin piece of bent wood, like a big piece of veneer or something and glue that to the corner prior to drilling? I guess that's just the way I'd do it.
RE: soundportparty in my patio (in reply to Mike_Kinny)
As Jason's video does illustrate the sound for the player will be louder. Can we or can't we say whether the guitar is louder or better projecting for the audience? Is there an effect on this experiment by covering the port with the muting and damping quality of the palm of a hand as opposed to the wood that is normally there if the hole was not? Is it possible that the difference we are hearing at distance can be caused by this covering of the port with the muting and damping quality of the palm of a hand as opposed to the wood that is normally there if the hole was not?
RE: soundportparty in my patio (in reply to chapman_g)
quote:
ORIGINAL: chapman_g
As Jason's video does illustrate the sound for the player will be louder. Can we or can't we say whether the guitar is louder or better projecting for the audience? Is there an effect on this experiment by covering the port with the muting and damping quality of the palm of a hand as opposed to the wood that is normally there if the hole was not? Is it possible that the difference we are hearing at distance can be caused by this covering of the port with the muting and damping quality of the palm of a hand as opposed to the wood that is normally there if the hole was not?
Astute observation but what is in play here, no pun intended, is that it does give certain feed back to the player's ears; this is a given, but I also find that it doesn't necessarily give better projection over a distance.
In fact, the guitar has sound going out of it on its side rather than out into the listening audience from the guitar's top. With this in mind we have the ideal of traditional aesthetics vs. ports in the side of a guitar.
But I'll say again, that guitar art is extremely subjective and those who find this type of guitar to be pleasing should know that they are not the only ones that this type appeals to, however small a percentage that may be:-)
So, I have determined that my guitars are not to suffer this change, strictly for a little extra feed back to the player.
RE: soundportparty in my patio (in reply to Mike_Kinny)
TOM, BELIEVE IT OR NOT, THE SOUNDPORT CAN GIVE SOME OF US MUSIC FOR MUSIC’S SAKE AS ART GAVE US ART FOR ARTS SAKE.. NO NEED FOR THE AUDIENCE’S APPROVAL! MUSIC IS NOT JUST FOR THE LOST IN THE PAID SEATS. YOUR GOALS ARE THOSE OF INGE’S, SUFFER THE PEOPLE FOR THE SAKE OF THE ACADEMY. “OPEN THE DOORS BOYS THERE IS A NEW WORLD OUT THERE”. POSSIBLY A FUTURE BRUNE WILL RESTORE A SOUNDPORT GUITAR.
RE: soundportparty in my patio (in reply to buddytalk)
quote:
ORIGINAL: buddytalk
TOM, BELIEVE IT OR NOT, THE SOUNDPORT CAN GIVE SOME OF US MUSIC FOR MUSIC’S SAKE AS ART GAVE US ART FOR ARTS SAKE.. NO NEED FOR THE AUDIENCE’S APPROVAL! MUSIC IS NOT JUST FOR THE LOST IN THE PAID SEATS. YOUR GOALS ARE THOSE OF INGE’S, SUFFER THE PEOPLE FOR THE SAKE OF THE ACADEMY. “OPEN THE DOORS BOYS THERE IS A NEW WORLD OUT THERE”. POSSIBLY A FUTURE BRUNE WILL RESTORE A SOUNDPORT GUITAR.
IS'NT LIFE BEAUTIFUL
It has yet to happen to my ears, Bro. But I think I've given a fair and balanced statement between the two areas of musical taste. More power to you.
Posts: 232
Joined: Mar. 1 2007
From: Florida and San Francisco Cali
RE: soundportparty in my patio (in reply to Mike_Kinny)
Good explanations on both ends. So basically the bottom line is if are you NOT happy with the current state of your guitar's volume and treble response (and can't hear it from a player's perspective) then getting a sound port is THE WAY the go, BUT if you are happy with your guitar the way it is then you shouldn't get it done. Pretty clear and straight forward to understand.
I am assuming a lot of guitars made semi-factory can benefit from this since there is not much extra tuning done to the top of those guitars. Doit, has a point with the durability of the guitar if it is accidentally dropped but that can be repaired.
I think my Hnos Sanchis gig guitar would also benefit from this but not my DeVoe or Blackshear. Looking forward to seeing the pics with the alteration.
hey DonS i been meaning to tell you.. thats a cool pic ( your profile photo)
I am looking foward to it..and i understand full well what it will do and what it wont...all i want is what it does...to have more volume for me...
thanks Anders i will copy and paste what you said to the guy who is going to do it...i am very pleased to see you experiment and try different things aand not be setlled...always searching for improvement...i think thats important in whatever u do..it would be eazyer not to since its unconventional for a flamenco guitar and you will always meet oposition...expecially in flamenco lol ... but i respect your dedication and conviction to it...surely there must be something to it if you are this serious about it
quote:
Flo you are so impulsive!! Me too!!
yeah i know lol...thats why i make the dancers keep my money for gigs...otherwise il go nuts on ebay and just buy the first thing i find lol...i keep meaning to buy a wireless mic but i never make it to the microphones page...i keep buying crap before i get there...
like a usb tv tunner or usb vcr converter or a tv
but its better that way if i ponder long enough i can find a reason not to do anything or buy anything ever...and somehow the money still disappear
btw.. Tom ofcourse no disrespect to your opinion ..i didnt come on the tread thinking i would do this...but the port just happens to do just i was looking for..and with the Jasons video it sold me...its one thing to have someone telling you its good...another to let you hear for yourself
RE: soundportparty in my patio (in reply to Anders Eliasson)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson
One thing more. All guitars will have to be fine tuned. With or without the port. The port doesnt give you anything free. If the soundboard is not in balance, the guitar is not in balance.
Does that mean, after you cut out the hole, you need to retune the soundboard?
Printable Version
....i didnt get more beer 
)...however i will be the first to admit i have no idea what i am talking about when it comes to how the guitar sound is projected...i guess it is possible... if thats the case il get one to play and one to drink beer out of 
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