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Jon Boyes

Posts: 1377
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
 

Todd's latest Buleria 

Pop over to here are listen to ToddK's latest Bulerias:

http://www.e-borneo.com/cgi-bin/cgf/upload2.cgi?type=newfiles

Wow.

Jon
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 28 2004 15:45:43
 
Billyboy

 

Posts: 389
Joined: Aug. 18 2003
 

RE: Todd's latest Buleria (in reply to Jon Boyes

Not as good as his previous stuff, some of the melodic ideas sound a bit odd to me, I think he is influenced too much by Tomatitos Barrio Negra album; who am I to judge though
Dave
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 28 2004 16:19:39
 
Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3527
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Todd's latest Buleria (in reply to Jon Boyes

Guys, you know this is a Todd-free zone... if you don't want to drive Simon mad, better lay off.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 28 2004 17:26:01
 
Jon Boyes

Posts: 1377
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
 

RE: Todd's latest Buleria (in reply to Miguel de Maria

quote:

ORIGINAL: Miguel de Maria

Guys, you know this is a Todd-free zone... if you don't want to drive Simon mad, better lay off.


Huh? Maybe I've missed some discussion, forgive me if I have, but I didn't think posting a link to a bulerias, even Todd's, contravened any forum rules? I realise there was an issue over him joining and we all know the history, that's water under the bridge, but whats the problem with discussing his music?
Jon
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 29 2004 8:36:25
 
Florian

Posts: 9240
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Todd's latest Buleria (in reply to Jon Boyes

That guy always hits the spot with me , excuse me but thats freaking brilliant he out of this world at composing.

everysingle note is perfect, i cant think of anything on the net that i have ever heard that has impressed me more.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 29 2004 12:38:18
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 29 2004 13:42:38
 
Jon Boyes

Posts: 1377
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
 

RE: Todd's latest Buleria (in reply to Guest

quote:

ORIGINAL: AndyB
Well, I think you have to put that into the context that he is in a studio all day every day for a living. And so I wonder just how much of those internet samples is technical wizardry and overdubs.


Todd recently gave a concert, he recorded it and is making a DVD. He has made several videos of his playing already and posted them on various forums.


Jon
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 29 2004 16:20:34
 
Escribano

Posts: 6356
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Todd's latest Buleria (in reply to Jon Boyes

Was there ever any doubt about Todd's ability? It's his Internet etiquette that needs some serious working on

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 29 2004 18:54:09
 
Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Todd's latest Buleria (in reply to Guest

Andy,
I think we have all discovered Flamenco in our own way which has become "part" of us, myself no less than anyone else here.
Flamenco is a broad church, encompassing everyone who enjoys Flamenco from a few well chosen chords to the guitar pyrotechnics.
It's all the same to me, great Flamenco can be simple or very technique orientated.
I like both.
Todd, I find an amazing character.
I think he's more guitar orientated than Flamenco though.
I'm certainly not putting him down by that statement.
But I think Todd could entertain a Jazz or Classical or Flamenco audience, depending on what they wanted to hear.
He's just that kind of guy.
Personally, I think he's an amazing player and I'm probably even more amazed that he's still hanging around Amateur Forums with his ability.
But maybe that's where Todd's at....not really interested in making a career or money out of it.
Just a true aficionado..... I can understand that.
Anyway, whatever the case, I certainly take my hat off to him.
I think he is an exceptional guitarist.

cheers

Ron
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 29 2004 21:56:00
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 29 2004 22:28:32
 
Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3527
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Todd's latest Buleria (in reply to Guest

Some people can master the guitar, but not life. They get mad because people want to buy CDs of teeny-boppers but can't appreciate the true skill they have painstakingly developed. Those people get madder and more bitter as the years go by, until they are absolutely intolerable. The sad fact of their lives drowns all the good they do in acrimony. Their stubbornness and unconventional nature helped them to excel at the solitary art of playing the guitar, but they can never get "over the hump" and realize how to excel at life, at career. I have a friend here in Phoenix like that. He is a lot better than Todd, and he lives in a trailer with two cats, and everyone who hears him play is enchanted, regular person or musician, but he's intolerable and angry and will probably go to his grave thus.

When in the presence of people like that, it's tempting to subject them to hero-worship. But they don't appreciate you for it. They just get pissed at you if you don't... the guitar is their only source of power in life, so they use it negatively. Once I was poking fun at Miguel, my friend who is in this boat, and his retort was that I would never learn how to play guitar. Remind you of comments such as: "I can tell you're not a good player, good players don't say those kind of things," or "You obviously don't have any talent and are bitter at those who do." That's how these people are. They are toxic. When you kiss their butt and compliment them and try to get them to make albums, go on tours, etc., they just despise you for it. You enable them in the same way that abused spouses of alcoholics sometimes enable their partners to live their dissolute lifestyles.

I have personal experience of musicians like this, and they live out their personas to a "T." It's a sad thing, but you just have to keep them at an arm's length or they will try to crush you. I have been burned too many times now... and I try to warn people from making the same mistake.

By the way, I don't look at it as a positive, necessarily, that pro-level guitarists hang out on amateur forums. It shows that they are not accepted and respected within the community of pro-level guitarists. Big fish in little pond syndrome.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 29 2004 22:53:29
 
zata

Posts: 658
Joined: Jul. 17 2003
 

RE: Todd's latest Buleria (in reply to Jon Boyes

quote:

Pop over to here are listen to ToddK's latest Bulerias


He's got 'aire' but no compas...in Spain that doesn't even get you the time of day. What's all the fuss about?

Everyone goes off compas now and again, but allowing that clip to be hung means he doesn't realize he's off.

zata
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 30 2004 1:19:15
 
Florian

Posts: 9240
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Todd's latest Buleria (in reply to zata

quote:

He's got 'aire' but no compas




With all the respect Zata I think you are wrong.

I am not here to defend Toddk, I realize you guys have had runings but i will defend good music ( in my view) all day long if i have to.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 30 2004 9:17:35
 
zata

Posts: 658
Joined: Jul. 17 2003
 

RE: Todd's latest Buleria (in reply to Florian

quote:

With all the respect Zata I think you are wrong.


It's only logical that he had control of whether or not the clip would be made available, so we have to assume he considers it a finished 'product'. How else could it reach the website?

Estela 'Zata'
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 30 2004 9:24:03
 
Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Todd's latest Buleria (in reply to zata

Hi Estella,
You've got me worried now! It seems to "count out" to me OK, but I'm certainly no expert, just another self-taught learner.
Are you referring to those long phrases that span a few compases with the accents falling in "odd" places?
When I hear "solo" guitarists playing virtually anything these days, they seem to take delight in trying to tie the listener up in knots with unusual phrasing that often seems to sit uncomfortably upon the compás.
I sometimes wonder if they do that because the phrasing actually demands it, or they are just showing off
When I listen to some early PdL albums the compás is so clear and straightforward, but these days I've sometimes got to look at the CD sleeve even to work out what bloody toque I'm meant to be listening to!
Is it this "uncomfortable" relationship between the phrasing and compás you're referring to, or do you mean he's actually losing/gaining counts?

cheers

Ron
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 30 2004 9:27:10
 
zata

Posts: 658
Joined: Jul. 17 2003
 

RE: Todd's latest Buleria (in reply to zata

Sorry, somehow I'd only read the first sentence of your message. I realize now you think I was saying it was bad music. Although it's not the sort of flamenco I like, it clearly has aire. But without compas it's as senseless as Manitas de Plata's creations.

Gerardo Núñez plays the kind of jazz flamenco that I don't care for, but good grief, the music is ravishingly beautiful, and the man plays in compás!

Estela 'Zata'
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 30 2004 9:31:52
 
Florian

Posts: 9240
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Todd's latest Buleria (in reply to Jon Boyes

Zata the compas sounds sounds in to me look in your winamp timer and tell me where to pay more attention and i will eat my words :)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 30 2004 9:39:46
 
Escribano

Posts: 6356
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Todd's latest Buleria (in reply to Florian

I can feel a "what is compas?" thread coming on

Estela, to clarify Florian is looking for the timing count (e.g. 32 secs) on your player software as to where he should pay particular attention to the compas.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 30 2004 9:59:42
 
Florian

Posts: 9240
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Todd's latest Buleria (in reply to Jon Boyes

Thank you Simon , yes thats what i meant.

Btw Simon you working hard on your buleria falseta ?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 30 2004 10:19:56
 
Jon Boyes

Posts: 1377
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
 

RE: Todd's latest Buleria (in reply to Ron.M

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron.M
Hi Estella,
You've got me worried now! It seems to "count out" to me OK, but I'm certainly no expert, just another self-taught learner.
Are you referring to those long phrases that span a few compases with the accents falling in "odd" places?


Thats what I thought - it is a very, very syncopated buleria, and plays WITH the compas in the same way Tomatito does, playing counter rhythms that deliberately clash with the overall pulse but thats not that same as being out of compas (least not how I understand it!)

I too would be interested to know what Zata means, with some specifics. I have heard Zata say this about some of Todd's work in the past, and I just can't hear it.

Jon
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 30 2004 10:21:10
 
zata

Posts: 658
Joined: Jul. 17 2003
 

RE: Todd's latest Buleria (in reply to Escribano

quote:

I can feel a "what is compas?" thread coming on


Yes, I just realized Florian is using a different definition of compas, basically, he's looking for everything to work out to units of 12, which it probably does. But that's not what compás is about...if it were, you could select any music of Bach or Sting or Tiny Tim and if the total number of beats were divisible by 12, you could call it bulerías. Similarly, Alejandro Sanz was invited to participate in the fin de fiesta on Saturday. He plays guitar, is a great pop singer, knows flamenco and has a flamenco voice. Everything he sang began at the beginning of a compás and ended at the end. But he did not sing in compás.

In this clip you can tell the guitarist is beating or feeling 12s...it doesn't work. I've written endlessly about how Spanish flamencos feel bulerías is twos, and this snippet of music is the best demonstration I've seen of what happens when you don't. Because the entire thing is so uneven it's hard to say where it's the most off...I'm not listening for any musical phrasing, just raw rhythm. If you pay close attention to the phrasing, it pushes the ear into place in order to compensate.

You know how you can proofread something a dozen times but still end up leaving a simple word out? That's because you know the intent of the sentence and even though you might write "The girl pretty" you see "The girl is pretty". But dancers and singers aren't in the business of compensating for guitarists, and professional soloists in Spain play in compás.

The shakiest spots seem to be around 14-15, 19-20, 99-100....the notes are all there, but the compás went out to lunch.

Estela 'Zata'
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 30 2004 10:27:20
 
Florian

Posts: 9240
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Todd's latest Buleria (in reply to Jon Boyes

This falseta does remind me alot of Tomatito's new album Agua Dulce
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 30 2004 10:29:32
 
Jon Boyes

Posts: 1377
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
 

RE: Todd's latest Buleria (in reply to zata

quote:

ORIGINAL: zata
Because the entire thing is so uneven it's hard to say where it's the most off...I'm not listening for any musical phrasing, just raw rhythm. If you pay close attention to the phrasing, it pushes the ear into place in order to compensate.


OK, genuine question here - to take two contemporary examples -do you think Tomatito and Vicente Amigo ever play out of compas in the Bulerias they have recorded? (solo guitar recordings). The reason I ask is because they do exactly what you describe - there are places where the 'raw rhythm' or pulse of the palo, is completely (deliberately) ignored or played with. That driving buleria beat is sacrificed temporarily to deliver a particular phrase or idea that hangs in the air, but the 12 beat structure is maintained as the guitarist plays catch up..

Hopefully you know what I mean, I would be interested in your views on this.

Jon
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 30 2004 11:16:38
 
Escribano

Posts: 6356
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Todd's latest Buleria (in reply to Florian

quote:

Btw Simon you working hard on your buleria falseta ?


Naah, I am a mere novice and Buleria is not one of the palos I have attempted yet. Probably the last one. I am on Tangos and Seguriyas at the moment.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 30 2004 11:53:14
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 30 2004 12:05:14
 
Escribano

Posts: 6356
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Todd's latest Buleria (in reply to Guest

I know what you mean about metal. Compas aside, I hear the use of the pick inducing too much ligato; the stock in trade of a metal guitarist.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 30 2004 12:21:09
 
zata

Posts: 658
Joined: Jul. 17 2003
 

RE: Todd's latest Buleria (in reply to Jon Boyes

quote:

do you think Tomatito and Vicente Amigo ever play out of compas in the Bulerias they have recorded?


I never heard any Spanish flamenco guitarist, professional or amateur, play out of compás. And *certainly not* Tomatito or Vicente.

It’s necessary to consider the difference between how a foreigner and a Spaniard understands the word “compás”. When I started singing for dancers in the US there was always the occasional person who did not dance in compás...some of you out there are grinning in sympathetic recognition. Outside of Spain “in compás” and “out of compás” refers to whether or not the person added an extra note at the end, or chopped off two at the beginning for example. In other words, getting on top of a 12-beat structure, which is how compás is usually taught abroad. (Few students outside Spain realize that many Spanish flamencos never consider that beats can be assigned numerical values...normally only people who teach have used the system, or the new generation of guitarists who now read music).

In Spain, it’s taken for granted that everyone knows the structure of bulerías, and people who have not internalized it don’t try to do bulerías, so having poor or good compás refers to how well you manipulate it. The clip we are discussing probably has the 12s under control, but there’s no compás *in the Spanish sense*. In the sense that a singer or dancer cannot dip into it, and even palmas are nearly impossible unless constant adjustments are made.

This is happening because the musician has not contemplated the binary structure, the twos that are the heart and soul of bulerías, that hold together the varying levels of accentuation that are always in flux and only partially overlapping, that prevent involuntary acceleration and that allow singer, dancer and guitarist to improvise at will without screwing each other up. I once wrote that without internalizing the binary structure of bulerias, you can only achieve an impersonation of the form. This clip is just such an impersonation...it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, but it doesn’t quack.

At any fiesta in Spain you can feel the room rocking in twos. I spent a lot of virtual ink trying to explain this at flamencodisc and in the end, people who had been doing flamenco for thirty and forty years wrote that until they understood the importance of twos, they had never been able to get on top of bulerías, and just recently semi-professional guitarist and singer Richard ‘Quijote’ Black, a veteran of over 40 years, said that every day new dimensions of compás were unfolding thanks to twos.

AndyB got it right about the clip:

“If you just listen to the guitarwork without considering the
rhythm it sounds flashy. But then when I listen to the rhythm
it just sounds like random notes that don't have compas. Its
just a steady stream of notes in 1/8 time.”

The guitarist playing on the clip has a fine musical sense and respectable technique and should apply those gifts to forms other than bulerías. Agujetas and Chocolate can’t do bulerías either

Estela ‘Zata’
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 30 2004 13:53:48
 
Florian

Posts: 9240
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Todd's latest Buleria (in reply to zata

Estela just out of curiosity have you and Toddk ever had a argument in the past ?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 30 2004 14:19:23
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 30 2004 14:21:25
 
Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Todd's latest Buleria (in reply to zata

quote:

At any fiesta in Spain you can feel the room rocking in twos


Estela,
You mentioned that a while ago now and I started to listen that way.
Also, when watching Ondajerez's broadcasts from the Jerez peñas, I could hear exactly what you meant.
I'm not very experienced in Bulerias, but this thinking in 3, 6, 8, 10, 12 etc somehow "seemed" wrong. I couldn't really believe that Spanish Flamencos were counting all this stuff out especially after a few tintos LOL!
People the world over like music they can simply tap their feet to, not have to remember complicated cycles, and 2's definitely is the main rhythm base that folk can relate to in Bulerias.
My final conversion came when Melchor sent me a video taped off Ondajerez TV which featured one of my favourite guitarists Diego Amaya.
In the Bulerias I could clearly see his shoulders moving and foot tapping in 2's.

cheers

Ron
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 30 2004 14:25:22
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