RE: 2s in bulerias examples

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Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: 2s in bulerias examples (in reply to Ron.M)

Yet...when I was at the workshop in Sevilla, in listening class, although there were some Spaniards there, the most toe-tapping and desk-thumping occurred on the tangos and rumbas section. This goes for the Spaniards, too. Sure everyone likes bulerias, but the tangos was the best energy the room had.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 1 2004 21:03:31

zata

Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003

RE: 2s in bulerias examples (in reply to Ron.M)

quote:

As foreigners, I think we come into Flamenco from the "wrong" viewpoint.

There isn't much choice really. I too spent years arm-wrestling with bulerías, just about getting all the plates spinning at once...but the people I was partying with always did it so effortlessly, it was infuriating...

My born again experience came in a car-ride on the way to a fiesta (people from flamencodisc are excused now, you have already heard the story). We were about 8 people squeezed into a vintage Mercedes, and everyone was doing compás, even the driver was beating on the wheel. They were taking turns singing bulerías and suddenly they all looked at me and said "you!". I've always sung lots of bulerías, but at that point I had been daydreaming briefly and couldn't locate the beginning or end of the compás! You know how sometimes you start hearing it from a different spot and the accents get displaced...I panicked...my life flashed before me...I thought: "where do I begin?!...where do I end?!...how can I fit my stuff in if I don't know where everyone is?!!!"

The palmas kept whip-cracking for what seemed like two hours, but it was only a few seconds (the adrenalin does that)...then...suddenly...I noticed the whole car was rocking up and down with everyone's footstomps, even at 110kms per hour, and it was twos! That did it...there was no way out, I had to sing, so I clicked into the twos, crossed my fingers and jumped in... It felt like slipping into a warm bath and everything suddenly became easy...the morass which had been bulerías compas suddenly organized itself in a way only a computer could appreciate. After that, every time I sang or danced bulerías I always went back to that feeling, and in time it became internalized.

Dat's my story and I'm stickin' to it....

Estela 'Zata'

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 1 2004 21:05:23

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: 2s in bulerias examples (in reply to zata)

Great story, Estela!
Thanks for that.

quote:

As foreigners, I think we come into Flamenco from the "wrong" viewpoint.

As they say in Ireland to lost Tourists looking for directions...
"Well, if I were you, I wouldn't start from here".

LOL!

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 1 2004 21:14:50

Jim Opfer

Posts: 1876
Joined: Jul. 19 2003
From: Glasgow, Scotland.

RE: 2s in bulerias examples (in reply to zata)

Zata,

Nice story, and sounds like you've had some amazing adventures.
In relation to compas, I think we are saying the same thing here, you make the point in your story that you were able to slip into compas realising the van was rocking in 2's. I can understand that and agreed with you earlier that this 'pulse' is there in Buleria and probably all other music. The thing is that this pulse has to be located within the bigger picture of the compas.

Believe me Zata, I'm by no means trying to intelectualize this, I'm a guy who is a bit dislexic and you will realise I can't spell very well[:) I'm trying to express a simple idea that 2's is fine for this notion of good timing and if you like, feeling the compas, but buleria on the other hand requires internalization of a bigger picture.

I guess I've miss spelt 'remate'? Ending on 10 for Solea, Alegria, Buleria etc and lets say 3 for Tangos.

Cheers
Jim.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 2 2004 11:49:56

Jim Opfer

Posts: 1876
Joined: Jul. 19 2003
From: Glasgow, Scotland.

RE: Todd's latest Buleria (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

Hey! MdM, what does this mean ken?

quote:

I think the Scottish people should have to write in a phonetic translation of a brogue from now on. That would be cool.

Cheers
Jim

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 2 2004 11:52:14

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: 2s in bulerias examples (in reply to Jim Opfer)

Jim,
What Zata's saying is try to view the overall compás of Bulerías from the perspective of the 2's rhythm.
Keep the two's rhythm going and feel how the 3, 6 8, 10, 12 and 3, 7,8, 10, 12 etc etc all fit in around that primal rhythm.
Don't locate the 2's into the bigger picture, but let the bigger picture locate itself around the 2's.
It is sometimes very awkward to do, but try it and practise listening that way and you will find it a very useful tool in your bag.
It's actually no help to discuss it or try to understand it.
Best just trying it for a while and see what you think.

Ye ken fit am spikkin aboot min?

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 2 2004 13:02:47

zata

Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003

RE: 2s in bulerias examples (in reply to Jim Opfer)

quote:

I'm trying to express a simple idea that 2's is fine for this notion of good timing and if you like, feeling the compas, but buleria on the other hand requires internalization of a bigger picture.

Jim, this is very important what you say here, and now we're using the same definitions.

I could be wrong, but I think you dismiss twos as merely part of twelve, since 6 twos make 12. And that's where Spaniards handle the compás in a different way...which turns out to be the most useful way as far as I'm concerned. Dancers work in 12s, 6s, 3s, and 2s singers depend mostly on 2s and 3s (and not even that, since singing is not a percussive expression)...guitarists have to coordinate the whole thing with no compás shorter than 6, although they may dip into 2s provided they play a number of them which is divisible by 3.

For this reason, from a guitarist's point of view, doggedly clinging to I--I--I-I-I- is a mission impossible because it doesn't correspond to the reality of what is going on and makes the job much harder. Maybe you can whistle Dixie at the same time you play bulerías, but why waste the effort? Furthermore, it's nearly impossible to keep a steady beat using the long scheme...I've heard non-Spanish guitarists say they have a hard time keeping the rhythm "down" in bulerías...but at fiestas here bulerías can go on for hours without a break, and there's no acceleration (with or without guitar).

There's an extra added attraction to twos which is that as soon as you get them going, and it takes no effort, you'll instinctively group the beats into modules of 3 twos in which the third two falls more importantly than the first...sounds complicated, but all it means is your twos are actually keeping unfailing sixes, which is the limit of a guitarist's responsibility in bulerías in the first place. Remember, threes and twos can be felt, and don't need to be counted or understood intellectually (my cat taps 3 times when he wants to go out) so a large part of your outer cortex is freed for other more pressing tasks, while the business of compás is left to the limbic brain :-P...I just made up the science, but the premise is legit.

"I guess I've miss spelt 'remate'? Ending on 10 for Solea, Alegria, Buleria etc and lets say 3 for Tangos."

This is a good example of how the 12 concept works against you (and the spelling is correct). You're thinking of falsetas that usually end neatly on what you're calling 10. But nobody ever told dancers and singers they have to do that as well, so a 12 cycle leaves you unprepared to accompany, and is bound to limit your solo work.

Estela 'Zata'

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 2 2004 13:07:47

Jim Opfer

Posts: 1876
Joined: Jul. 19 2003
From: Glasgow, Scotland.

RE: 2s in bulerias examples (in reply to zata)

quote:

This is a good example of how the 12 concept works against you (and the spelling is correct). You're thinking of falsetas that usually end neatly on what you're calling 10. But nobody ever told dancers and singers they have to do that as well, so a 12 cycle leaves you unprepared to accompany, and is bound to limit your solo work.

Oh no! Zata stop please, my limbic brain's about to burst.

Cheers
Jim.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 2 2004 15:52:40

Jim Opfer

Posts: 1876
Joined: Jul. 19 2003
From: Glasgow, Scotland.

RE: 2s in bulerias examples (in reply to Ron.M)

a ken!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 2 2004 15:54:41

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Todd's latest Buleria (in reply to Patrick)

Wow, Estela is getting into cool 19th century psychology now. What does ken mean?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 2 2004 16:56:06

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Todd's latest Buleria (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

Mike,
Div ye no ken ma loon?
Ah'll explain it till ye efter ma tea.

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 2 2004 17:04:32

Jim Opfer

Posts: 1876
Joined: Jul. 19 2003
From: Glasgow, Scotland.

RE: Todd's latest Buleria (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

Ah! so ye dinne ken?
Here this is braw!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 2 2004 17:25:59

Jim Opfer

Posts: 1876
Joined: Jul. 19 2003
From: Glasgow, Scotland.

RE: 2s in bulerias examples (in reply to zata)

Zata,

Just so I'm clear on what you advise.

I've posted about 'black strings' and Carlos Saura's film 'Flamenco'. but one other observation I had, was in the opening Buleria when La Paquera de Jerez is singing, behind her to the left, there's one man sitting on his chair doing a palmas with two claps. If you have this film and have time to look, can you tell me if this is the 'twos' you write about?

If it is, then it helps me understand a bit better because in my book his palmas are 'al golpe' and are in three's.

Cheers
Jim.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 2 2004 18:04:46

zata

Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003

RE: 2s in bulerias examples (in reply to Jim Opfer)

quote:

there's one man sitting on his chair doing a palmas with two claps. If you have this film and have time to look, can you tell me if this is the 'twos' you write about?

If it is, then it helps me understand a bit better because in my book his palmas are 'al golpe' and are in three's.

Jim, I've got the video somewhere, possibly at another apartment. But no one does palmas in twos so it can't be the same thing. It sounds like you're describing the following:

ONE-TWO three FOUR-FIVE six

The smallest unit these palmas represent is 6 because the first three beats are not identical to the second three. If you don't give more importance to the two and the four you end up with an oom-pah-pah waltz. AND...the dominance of the two and the four comes from superimposing twos. It's a mindset more than anything else, but it makes a big difference...Strauss never sounds like bulerías.

Estela 'Zata'

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 2 2004 18:52:21

Jim Opfer

Posts: 1876
Joined: Jul. 19 2003
From: Glasgow, Scotland.

RE: 2s in bulerias examples (in reply to zata)

Zata,

Let's keep it simple and put the 'waltz' thing to one side for a moment, that's a red herring!

I'm just asking if the guy on the video is a clear visual demonstration of what you mean by two's?

Cheers
Jim

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 2 2004 19:20:38

zata

Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003

RE: 2s in bulerias examples (in reply to Jim Opfer)

quote:

I'm just asking if the guy on the video is a clear visual demonstration of what you mean by two's?

You'd have to describe what he's doing, but like I said, I never saw anyone do palmas in twos so it sounds strange.

When a dancer comes out in bulerías as they sometimes do, walking in a circle sometimes raising the arms as they go, they're stepping on every second beat. How's that for visual?

Estela 'Zata'

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 2 2004 19:47:30

zata

Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003

RE: 2s in bulerias examples, on seco... (in reply to Jim Opfer)

quote:

Let's keep it simple and put the 'waltz' thing to one side for a moment, that's a red herring!

Actually the waltz thing is pivotal. If you beat your foot on one and clap on two, three, repeating the sequence indefinitely, that's waltz. But if you do those same palmas while beating every second beat with your foot, you've got bulerías! (make sure the foot's doing the even-numbered beats).

Do you think it's cool?

Estela 'Zata'

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 2 2004 19:54:03

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: 2s in bulerias examples (in reply to Jim Opfer)

Jim,
You know the copy of the Ondajerez video I gave you?
Wind it on till near the end when Diego Amaya is accompanying the singer in that studio with all the folk seated around the tables.
Now he plays a standard Bulerias, accenting 3, 7,8, 10
Now watch his foot and the way he moves his shoulders.
It's on 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12.
Not 1,2_4,5,_7,8_10,11.
That's a completely different thing.
Not necessarily, "Al Golpe", but fits in to practically any Bulerias.
Look at his foot and watch how he is keeping time.
And he is one of the best Bulerias accompanists around IMO.

cheers

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 2 2004 20:26:01

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Todd's latest Buleria (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

Mike,
There is no such thing as a Scottish "brogue".
Like anywhere else in Britain, the regional dialect changes every 50 miles you drive in any direction.
So there are several dialects in Scotland.
Generally they are all English language words, but up here we play around with some vowel sounds and the occasional consonant to trip up foreigners LOL!
"Ken" is not an exclusively Scottish word.
It means "to know", or "have knowledge of".
It was used in an older form of English, but you seldom hear it in England now.
You must have heard the English song "Do you Ken John Peel"?
I actually heard an American use the term on the Radio a while back.
He said something like "Surely it's not beyond the ken of human civilization to sort out these kind of issues"
"Ken" is really just used in the Eastern side of Scotland.
No Glasgwegian or anybody to the West would dream of using the word, lest they would be thought of as a "Teuchter", (or country bumpkin.)
I know Edinburgh is meant to be the Capital city of Scotland and not actually rural country, but Glasgwegians don't pay any attention to them anyway, so it doesn't matter LOL!

The Scottish dialect is pretty easy to grasp once you've got a hold of a few pointers.
Like, the English say "What?"
The Central Scottish say "Whit" (note the vowel shift).
And the NorthEasterners say "Fit". (note the vowel, plus fricative shift)
So where I live, if somebody says "Fit like?" ("How are you?")
The answer normally is "Nae bad min, foos yersel'?" (Not bad, man ..how are you?)
"Min" is something I've heard only in Aberdeen.
There was an Aberdeen City poster campaign here a few years ago, to alert folk against littering the streets by dropping paper etc called "Pititinabinmin".
You're a pretty analytical guy so I'm sure you should be able to work it out!
There is a rich vocabulary up here...something that took me a while to get used to.
Like, a boy is called a "loon" and a girl called a "Quieney" (queenie..but rhymes with "shiney")
I don't know where "loon" originated from, but if you called somebody in Glasgow a "loon", (looney) you would be eating Hospital food for the next week!

So a quick lowdown on the general Scottish dialect for you Mike.

The main vowel shifts that puzzle foreigners.
Engish "no", or "home".... Scottish "nae" or "hame"
English "first", or "shirt" ....Scottish "furst" or "shurt"
English ""what" or "where"... Scottish "whit" or "whaur"

As I mentioned in the NorthEast , the "wh" sound changes to an "f" sound.
So here it would be "fit" or "faur"

Scots never sound the final "ng" sound as in "singing"...so it's always "singin'"
And Glasgwegians never pronounce the final "t" in a word, (sometimes *any* "t" in any position), preferring to replace it with a "glottal stop".
So "can't" becomes "can'*" or "won't" become's "won'*", where "*" is the glottal stop.
I would mention "don't", but Glasgwegians prefer the construction... "Goanny no dae tha*" (Kindly refrain from doing that, if you will).
"Goanny" is a great word, only to be bettered by "Goanny no".
Also there is no singular "you" and "you" (plural).
In Glasgow, they have their act together, so you know immediately what they are talking about as they use "You" and "Youze".

It's not as complicated as you think.
A few weeks here and you'd get the swing of things.
I've spoken to Simon, (who is Southern English) a couple of times on the phone and within a minute or so his ear attuned to the different sounds, so at least he could understand ever second word I said LOL!

The Spanish Language (although I am very rusty at it now) is absolutely beautiful!
They have great words for things.
One of my favourites was "chisme" (thing) and it was jolly useful, 'cos if I didn't know the name for something, I'd just say "Este chisme".
A valuable word.
When I was in Madrid, my good friend Fernando always used to respond to the greeting "Qué pasa?", with the reply "Pasa agua" (piss) if life hadn't been too good to him on that particular week.
Also countless other great (and sometimes funny) Spanish words that don't have a direct English equivalent.

cheers

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 2 2004 21:58:20

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Todd's latest Buleria (in reply to Ron.M)

Ron,
thanks for the low-down. I'll study it a little more and come up with some Scottish posts when I have a bit more time. I have to go and scrub the pool. Sounds like you and I would communicate better in Spanish if we had to talk to each other on the phone. :)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 2 2004 22:46:26

Jim Opfer

Posts: 1876
Joined: Jul. 19 2003
From: Glasgow, Scotland.

RE: 2s in bulerias examples, on seco... (in reply to zata)

Zata,

quote:

Actually the waltz thing is pivotal.

I know all about that, it's often quoted, I just want to find out exactly what you mean by two's.

Cheers
Jim.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 2 2004 23:45:35

Jim Opfer

Posts: 1876
Joined: Jul. 19 2003
From: Glasgow, Scotland.

RE: 2s in bulerias examples (in reply to Ron.M)

Hi Ron,

I'll check it out. But I want to get to the bottom of this Zata thing.

Cheers
jim.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 2 2004 23:47:49

Guest

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Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Jul. 9 2004 13:57:37

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 3 2004 1:30:24

zata

Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003

RE: 2s in bulerias examples, on seco... (in reply to Jim Opfer)

quote:

I know all about that, it's often quoted, I just want to find out exactly what you mean by two's.

Two, four, six, eight, who do you appreciate, just like in first grade (assuming you use the one to twelve number system of counting bulerías).

The waltz is more germane than you think. The BIG difference between using the 12-count and twos comes down to beat number 3 which is heavily accented in the former, never in the latter. For this reason, a lilting waltz becomes driving bulerías by simply removing the power of the third beat.

Incidentally, beat number 9 is an orphan beat, or black hole, since it is not accented in any of the compás structures of bulerías...except strict threes which is waltz. Occasionally those threes are used very briefly, and there was a fad in the late seventies of doing "bulerías vals": Diego Carrasco "A mi Manuela"; Laventa "Porque estoy vacía", Lole y Manuel (many); Paquera "La rosa de mi alegría" among others. But the 'vals' form was limited and boring, and rather than becoming a new 'palo' as many thought at the time, it has fallen by the wayside.

Estela 'Zata'

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 3 2004 9:19:10

zata

Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003

RE: 2s in sevillanas ?? (in reply to Guest)

quote:

I pat my foot in 2s when I play sevillanas. I'm not sure if this proves anything, though.
Maybe its just easier to pat the foot every other beat.

All of the above. It's the same thing but doesn't open doors in sevillanas since there's nowhere to go...sevillanas doesn't admit variation.

It's easier to beat every other beat for sevillanas (sevillanas singers usually keep threes, also easy), and it's also easier for bulerías, with the added attraction of keeping everyone in compás.

Estela 'Zata'

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 3 2004 9:24:42

Jim Opfer

Posts: 1876
Joined: Jul. 19 2003
From: Glasgow, Scotland.

RE: 2s in bulerias examples, on seco... (in reply to zata)

Zata,

quote:

Two, four, six, eight, who do you appreciate, just like in first grade (assuming you use the one to twelve number system of counting bulerías).

Ah! that's a clear statement and incidentally but no big deal, it's different from the wee fella on the video (not baseing any argument on that fact).

To argue that compas in buleria is a string of twos is something that no doubt you find comes natural, is instinctive and very helpful, no question about that. But to claim that this is 'compas', vastly over simplifies and misses the big pictured . Fine for keeping in time, but not compas.

Cheers
Jim.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 3 2004 9:54:46

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Todd's latest Buleria (in reply to Ron.M)

I'm going to Las Vegas for a day to see the bright lights and the Gipsy Kings. Their new album is very interesting, good acoustic guitar sound. They even sing a couple of old-school fandangos! Tomorrow is the 4th of July, the day we Americans celebrate our independence. My brother asked me if British people are bitter about that...so I thought I would ask some Scottish people. Well, are they?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 3 2004 17:21:38

zata

Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003

RE: 2s in bulerias examples, on seco... (in reply to Jim Opfer)

quote:

But to claim that this is 'compas', vastly over simplifies and misses the big pictured . Fine for keeping in time, but not compas.

I defined how I was using the word compás: a group of beats organized into a unit of accented and unaccented beats, as opposed to rhythm which is a formless steady beat.
What then is your definition of compás?

For what it's worth, you can eliminate 3s, 6s and 12s and still do bulerías, as long as you know where the 2s are. The twos however only disappear in waltz time...which has little to do with bulerías.

I think it's possible that what you're calling "the big picture" is the 12 model that teachers use and which can only take you so far...the sooner it's left behind, the more fun you can have doing bulerías and the better you'll accompany. For solos it probably doesn't make that much difference, as we saw with the clip which began this string and which almost sounds like it's in compás until someone tries to do palmas to it.

Estela 'Zata'

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 3 2004 17:45:19

zata

Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003

RE: 2s in bulerias examples, on seco... (in reply to zata)

quote:

the sooner it's left behind, the more fun you can have doing bulerías

I realize this is misleading. What I meant was learn it and leave it, not disregard it. Just as you would learn the grammar of a foreign language, but not call up the rules each time you spoke. Natives need neither grammar rules nor twelves...these are learning tools to aid the assimilation of a new skill.

Estela 'Zata'

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 3 2004 18:13:57

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Todd's latest Buleria (in reply to Ron.M)

Zata,
I think what we non-experts are having problem with is the concept of...how everyone knows when the stops are...they're on 10, right? So that leads us to think that not only do we have to keep the "pulse", that is, the constant stream of "twos", but that the unit of 12 beats must be subconsciously adhered to. Unless there are some other cues that they use.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 3 2004 18:14:19