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RE: Todd's latest Buleria
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Jim Opfer
Posts: 1876
Joined: Jul. 19 2003
From: Glasgow, Scotland.
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 RE: Buleria in 6 (in reply to zata)
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Huge topic
I've come into this very late, I haven't listened to Todd's thing and I don't want to keep this discussion going on well past the sell by date, but I have to say that I find this idea that there can be so may versions of compas in buleria quite odd.
Having read through the thread I am left unconvinced. I also don't believe I have to be Spanish to feel and understand compas.
No one mentioned 5 beats but then again these beats are not equally spaced so maybe it should be 2 beats with an odd contra bounce every now and again when you feel the compas against the guy banging out the 5 beats. Or, how about is 3's that is 2 pulses and one silent.
When we talk about Flamenco, we have to remember that this only refers to Cante (voice) the other forms are invention and secondary, they also need rules. Rules are important for dance which relies on metronomic fractions to make sense, if there's no metronome working inside the dancer, then there's no dancer. A dancer will insist that it has to be right on the beat, if it's a fraction early or late, then it could just as well happen tomorrow night.
Guitar is similar to dance although I'd say closer to cante, we do need structure to locate our notes and give us a context to work in but if we play for a singer we must not get there first, you feel your clock say NOW but you have to hold back.
It's no big deal when a guitarist and a dancer get together, we inevitably get caught up in a conversation about numbers.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that compas gets dilluted in any discussion about fractions, the compas has to be felt, if you're a guitarsist you need to learn to sing with your guitar.
I'm miles away and still to learn this por buleria.
Cheers
Jim
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Date Jun. 30 2004 19:43:25
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Ron.M
Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland
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RE: Buleria in 6 (in reply to Jim Opfer)
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Hi Jim,
Do you remember me saying to you, Rob and Gordon in Dundee that I am trying to overcome this feeling of playing "a foreign music" everytime I play Flamenco?Bulerias is just one of the difficulties, but Tangos and Fandangos de Huelva can be notoriously difficult, even though the rhythms seem on the surface to be pretty straightforward.
Hey...even Sevillanas, which is often taught as an "entry level" dance for raw beginners.
Put on Sauras "Sevillanas" video and clap along with Manolo Sanlucar or his duet with Paco!
A little bit harder than the Tradition Sevillanas we all know.
Bulerias are a constant magnet for Flamenco enthusiasts precisely because of the immediate complexities.
As I said in Dundee, if I go into a pub here in Aberdeen, and someone is singing "The Irish Rover" or "The Wild Colonial Boy", my foot will start tapping instictively.
I don't have to concentrate or work out the framework.
I was intrigued by a passing "one liner" in a post from Estela a while back, when there was a discussion going on about Bulerias, where she finished by saying something like, "Of course, all this is held together by the constant pulse of the rhythm in two's, otherwise it would all fall apart".
It's not like the penny's dropped or anything...I haven't suddenly discovered any "key" or anything, but thinking in two's definitely meets my "Irish Rover" criterion, of how folk in Andalucia can go for a good night out and have a few vinos without having to concentrate on timing.
Not that thinking in two's is the Holy Grail or anything.
The whole structural framework of Bulerias with it's various rhythms lie on top of that.
A bit like rubbing your tummy and patting your head at the same time.
But, from what I've perceived over the past nine months or so, from the initial idea from Estela and later listening to a lot of Bulerias from Jerez, this habit of feeling the rhythm in 2's seems to be giving me more understanding of this Palo.
cheers
Ron
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Date Jun. 30 2004 20:36:45
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zata
Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003
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RE: Buleria in 6 (in reply to Jim Opfer)
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"I find this idea that there can be so may
versions of compas in buleria quite odd."
The more you study bulerías, the more you will marvel at its diversity. Right now I’m preparing a lengthy essay about bulerías for a peña in Jerez, and every sentence leads off into a mini-essay in itself. I remember the first time I heard Paco de Lucía play bulerías in Escudero’s flamenco center in 1966...my first thought (after putting my jaw back in place) was “how come no one ever used those parts of the compás before?” After decades of fine guitarists, from Montoya to Sabicas and everyone in between, there was still unexplored territory within those few beats that make up a single compás of bulerías.
"I also don't believe I have to be Spanish to
feel and understand compas."
No, of course you don’t have to be Spanish. I commented that Spaniards don’t go out of compás in the sense of extra or missing beats, something you *do* see among foreigners.
"dancer will insist that it has to be right on the
beat, if it's a fraction early or late, then it could
just as well happen tomorrow night."
Exactly...a little off compás, a little pregnant, a little dead... Some values are absolutely absolute.
Estela ‘Zata’
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Date Jun. 30 2004 20:43:55
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Ron.M
Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland
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RE: Buleria in 6 (in reply to Miguel de Maria)
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Hi Mike,
Just simple 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12.. a straight beat as you would tap your foot to any other song.
It feels odd, 'cos the framework above you is accenting 3, 6, 7,8 10 etc.
I think after reading and being intrigued by Estela's initial post, I got an introduction to it by listening to Diego Amaya.
Have a listen to an upload I did a few months back "Bulerias Intro" and you'll hear it there.
That's about the time it started to click with me.
Forget about the "free form" intro, but listen to the bit where the Bulerias rhythm picks up and you'll find you can tap your feet very easily to it in 2's.
This is just "entry level" stuff of course.
It obviously gets more difficult than that, but for me it opened a door and stopped me thinking in 3, 6, 8, 10, 12 so much and started to see Bulerias as a straight rhythm, but with pretty complex macro rhythms.
Still bloody difficult though LOL!
cheers
Ron
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Date Jun. 30 2004 21:09:00
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Florian
Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia
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RE: Todd's latest Buleria (in reply to zata)
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Ron I think i understand what you are saying but does that mean that what every guitar book and video etc preaches 3,6,8,10,12 or 12,,3,,,78,10, is all wrong ?
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Date Jul. 1 2004 4:50:33
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Ron.M
Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland
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RE: Todd's latest Buleria (in reply to Florian)
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quote:
Ron I think i understand what you are saying but does that mean that what every guitar book and video etc preaches 3, 6 ,8,10,12 or 12,,3,,,78,10, is all wrong ?
Florian,
Zata is the expert on this, but the way I see it, the guitar books, videos, etc highlight what is "different" about Flamenco from "western" style music.
That is, the way long rhythmic cycles are employed, and then go on to use numbers to explain them.
As Estela has pointed out, a lot of Flamencos who don't teach, are actually unaware of this. They've just picked it up from an early age.
The books, videos, etc never mention what is similar.
That is, even though the rhythms appear structurally complex, human beings naturally feel rhythm in 2's or 3's, not complicated cycles.
So the 3, 7,8 10, 12 etc is correct in describing the variations of the "framework" but doesn't describe well the underlying base rhythm, which folk need to feel to have a good time at a juerga.
This is only my opinion though. Not proven fact.
So don't take it as Gospel.
cheers,
Ron
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Date Jul. 1 2004 8:25:32
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zata
Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003
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RE: Todd's latest Buleria (in reply to Miguel de Maria)
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quote:
But if Bulerias is really the spawn of Soleares, then the bulerias in 2's must be an "aberration" of the original,
If bulerías came from soleá (which is not universally accepted), it's the *cante* that was born, one from the other. You are probably a guitarist, so you know how the slightest variation in tempo causes you to use different techniques and phrasing, such as happens with soleá por bulería as compared to soleá, with only the most subtle acceleration.
Therefore there's no reason to look for rhythmic similarities between soleá and bulería beyond the basic structure. People seem to best feel the surge of music when a pulsation occurs every half second or three quarters of a second (back to the Rover principle...have you noticed that singers sing no faster por bulería than por soleá and only the music changes?). That *real time* interval would embrace not only the twos of bulerías, but every single downbeat of soleá...twos por soleá would be far too slow to have any relevance.
If you accept the above, and I think it's too obvious to doubt, then it's easy to project how bulerías developed into an entirely distinct animal.
Estela 'Zata'
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Date Jul. 1 2004 11:25:40
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zata
Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003
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RE: Buleria in 6 (in reply to Jim Opfer)
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quote:
PdL plays buleria tapping his foot al golpe, by this I mean, 3 beats (one silent and two tapped) that's his pendulum swing but it's not compas. (IMO)
Jim, we're just using different definitions of "compás". I talk about:
a) rhythm: a steady downbeat without accents, and its specific tempo;
and
b) compás: the accents or pulsations that conform the rhythm into repeated measures or modules.
It's not right or wrong, it's just the definitions that have meaning to *me* and by which twos is another kind of compás, just as Paco's tapping is another, Lebrija compás is another, and so on. The most important thing to consider IMO is that none of these compases are mutually exclusive...on the contrary! the more artfully they overlap, the more exciting bulerías is...and to allow this to happen, twos is the unifying force. I think Einstein had some kind of bulerías formula that was very helpful, but it never gained acceptance in Andalucía because no one could read his handwriting.
Estela 'Zata'
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Date Jul. 1 2004 11:44:22
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Jim Opfer
Posts: 1876
Joined: Jul. 19 2003
From: Glasgow, Scotland.
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RE: 2s in bulerias examples (in reply to zata)
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Hi Zata
quote:
If you can't get it going, start in the normal twelves way, but when you get to SIX seven EIGHT nine TEN eleven TWELVE, just keep going: one TWO three FOUR five, and keep in the groove. Better the foot than palmas.
You seem to be saying that this is the foundation for compas in buleria but jings! Zata, this just doesn't make any sense to me. I fully understand that two's will fit and help regulate buleria but to then say that this is compas? You make this distinction yourself in your earlier post where you point out the difference between Rythem and Compas.
I agree that multiples of two's, contra's, al golpe's and three's thrown in to the soup together with all the other permutations on rythem will melt down and cook up a tasty meal, but it won't be BULERIA unless they all comply with the 5 beats of COMPAS. I mean, what's the point in all these permutations if you let the remate end on beat 2?
Having said that, there's a terrific Solea por Buleria by Vicente where he ends on what I figure is 9 and it's just perfect? It's like - Hey! how'd nobody do that before?
Phew!
Cheers
Jim.
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Date Jul. 1 2004 19:53:39
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Ron.M
Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland
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RE: 2s in bulerias examples (in reply to Jim Opfer)
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quote:
Zata, this just doesn't make any sense to me.
Jim,
This is what I was on about in Dundee.
As foreigners, I think we come into Flamenco from the "wrong" viewpoint.
We read and learn about all the complicated forms of the compás.
And miss out on the fact that this is "party" music for a lot of Andalucians!
Now a lot of folk on this forum and the FT forum are educated and intelligent people, some with degrees in math and computer programming and engineering etc.
So they are pretty used to grasping complicated issues.
Yet a lot of young kids in Spain have no problem with the complex timing involved in Flamenco.
Why is that?
I believe it's because the teaching methods are directed at foreign adult audiences which emphasise the "Compás Clock" etc, and misdirects our energies into observing the 3,6,8,10,12 cycle with such stiff rigour that we're all tensed up and miss the simplicity of the music in the way the Flamencos do.
As I said before...this is "real" music to them... Bulerías often "party" music...
Not an intellectual challenge to them, but a relaxation.
In short, I think we view Flamenco as outsiders looking in...and miss the point of what is actually happening on the ground.
And that's why a Saturday night Buleria for them is not more complicated than the "Irish Rover" for us.
This is just my current feeling on the issue.
cheers
Ron
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Date Jul. 1 2004 20:34:19
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