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That's not making things black or white or modern v traditional surely?
No, i was just afraid that this thread was going to deteriorate into a new flame war. You are right, romerito is right and i think i have some experience on the subject as well.
And what i mean is that bulerias exists without any mathematics to describe it, or heat could be mesured in celsius or farenheit to put it in another way.
So now it is really CLEAR to the folks wondering, right?
Same thing happened last time! Everyone counts differently, or thinks of it different, even though they all know it, and probably play the same stuff! And it is easy to fight about it too, last time some folks left the forum over it! So rather than add to the confusion by giving my 2 cents (I am sure it is in the archives a million times anyway), let me just say I agree that the very first stuff said that you should focus learning a PATTERN, how to play it in RHYTHM, meaning you can keep a beat, not worry about how to count it. Just play the thing steady. Use a metronome "tick tock" and play evenly, dont' add or subtract notes, or try to improvise, just play each note or strum, one beat to the next.
Counting is for communicating with a dancer, that is the ONLY reason. Not for learning, not for composing, not for accompanying cante. So you have to count like he or she (the dancer) counts, or understand how to fit your music to their count or choreography. So focus on playing stuff and getting it even first. Later you will overlay numbers to the accents and feeling in your music. In other words you will understand where "4" or "7" are as a feeling, relative to the pattern/falseta you play. It will become natural, but you should not learn to PLAY from the counting. See what I am saying?
So instead of giving MY counting method or description trying to explain how these guys are saying the same thing, I have some questions for you guys that play and gave your ideas already.
As mentioned falsetas or anything really can start anywhere in the compas. What is the START of the compas? Rather, what is the HEAD and what is the TAIL of the compas? Well we can all agree on the END of the compas right? That is the cool thing about flamenco that other music does not have. It does not END on the down beat. Count 10 is the end. So if a falseta starts on 10 say, it is like a pick up note in other types of music. But a pick up, to WHAT? In other kinds of music, a pick up usually goes to the DOWN beat, the HEAVIEST beat in the cycle.
1. Ok so my question is, what is the DOWN beat of Solea, to you guys? 2. What is the DOWN beat of bulerias? 3. What is the DOWN beat of Solea Por Bulerias?
Another question. Have you guys ever experienced dancers to get "crossed" to your down beat in escobilla? And finally, have you experienced an escobilla of Solea that had a "2 cycles of bulerias inside one of solea" feel?
Ricardo
Sonikete, what is your name on the CD and which pieces do you accompany? Oh, and your upload was helpful, but it was a llamada that called the bulerias, rather than a continuous rise of tempo of the escobilla. A good example of WHY dancers count both palos the same, but not really the whole picture.
I dont know if my english is good enough to get into a detailed discussion about it but ill give it a go;
Im not sure what you mean by downbeat but when the music is rolling i see the 3 as the gravity point both in solea and bulerias and 12 in solea por bulerias. Or at least I think i do, i havent really analyzed that. (this wont help anyone LOL)
And to add to the confusion further i will say that i mark the foot on 1 - 3 - 5 - 7 - 9 - 11 - etc in bulerias when i play in the kitchen at home.
Ive only had problem with dancers from outside of spain, spanish artists in general are so secure in what they do that the feeling of security made me feel secure as well.
The name is of his record is 'no soy flamenco' and i play (or try to, im not too proud of my effort ) on the tangos, solea and alegrias.
Yeah, i realized that there was llamadas in the end of it but there is enough time to hear the shift that 'fools the ear'.
Im not sure what you mean by downbeat but when the music is rolling i see the 3 as the gravity point both in solea and bulerias and 12 in solea por bulerias. (this wont help anyone LOL)
And to add to the confusion further i will say that i mark the foot on 1 - 3 - 5 - 7 - 9 - 11 - etc in bulerias when i play in the kitchen at home.
Very interesting. No wrong answers, just trying to get a feel for what we are all talking about. So 1,3,5,7,9,11 with the foot. Do you have Chicuelo video by encuentro or any vid of him playing bulerias? Would you say you tap your foot the SAME as him, or the exact opposite (12,2,4,6,8,10)?
Why do you think you feel Solea por bulerias differently than the other two?
I only tap that way at home (exactly the opposite of what is common) because it drives singers insane if id do it to them
When i play with others i do it like chicuelo, on the accents or not at all.
I dont know why i feel the solea por bulerias differently or if i actually do, i have to get a guitar and check, and its a bit too early to do that, but i think i gravitate towards 12 now when im thinking about it.
The start of this thread was how to count in two´s, but it bacame lost in the 12 counting jungle.
My advice is to look up the 2 discussions we had some 2 or 2,5 year ago. One of them were started by It´s very long.
Her conclusion was ( and I agree 90%, sorry Estela if I write something wrong. Long time ago ) that if you cannot find the groove, which is the 12 - 2 - 4 - 6 - 8 - 10, then the compas doesnt work. This groove is what glues everything together, especially when there are more than one or two playing (palmas, cajon etc) Very often, when things are getting polyrythmical you´ll see one of the palmeros do the groove, and this in a way like directing the show. Everyone following him doing his little variation.
What has helped me, and I´ve got a long way to go, was to do the groove with the feet at the same time as you do the 12 beat compás with the accents 12 - 3 - 6 - 8 - 10. Also put your favorite solo compás bulerias CD on an do groove. Jump a bit around on the floor and get to know where you are in the compás. Also a good advice is to leave your CD on replay while you do other things. This way you get the compás feeling without being intellectual
I said that I agree 90%. The 10% is when the guitar plays a walsy type falseta, then the 2 beat groove is difficult to maintain, but who cares, you just swap into 3 count and make the remate on 10.
My personal opinion is that bulerias compás cannot be learned the intelectual way only, but you need to do some counting in order to find your way around and to be able to communicate with others.
My personal opinion is that bulerias compás cannot be learned the intelectual way only, but you need to do some counting in order to find your way around and to be able to communicate with others.
Yes, that is probably what it boils down to in the end.
12, or 6 is the downbeat, or head. 4, or 10 is the tail. 2, 8 the body. All the other numbers are the "up" beat feelings that keep it alive. Important not to treat every beat of "counting 2's" or with the foot "taping 2's", as equals, or you can still get lost. Understanding where the DOWNBEAT is and how everything else relates is important.
Too many folks are learning falsetas and asking "where is 7,8,9,10", making it seem complex, but they can't just feel the downbeat. Every thing seems pretty simple to me when I learned how to play on or off of the beat, and knowing the head from the tail.
Listen to Moraito "buleriando". He just gives chords on the downbeats in the beginning and many other times. Very fundamental, very simple
Having taken note of what Anders said about previous threads on bulerias, I did a search going back a year and found an absolute treasure of a thread for the befuddled such as myself. PLEASE do a search and read-
OK, you want a beginners input? I'm am much confused. I always though bulerias was 12--3--6-8-10- and now you guys are saying every other beat. I don't get it. Why couldn't I just go 1-3- 1-3- 1-3-? This whole compas thing is driving me nuts. I think I should try to accent and then I don't see any accents in your counts and I can't get the accents on the right beat anyway. I see compas counts for different palos and some of them look exactly the same except one "starts" on 12, one starts on 10, and so on. I can't tell the difference since about 9 times out of 10, music doesn't seem to start at the start anyway! Oh well, maybe I'll get it someday. Wayne
Weigh in beginners. Has any of this helped? I'll just shut up if it hasn't.
I was taught how to count it, 12 - 3 - 6 - 8 - 10 - 12, or 12 - 3 - 6 - 9-10 - 12, but really I should just feel it. Unless I'm just struming away, I can get it either way.
I'm with Wayne, all this has really confused me as well.
ORIGINAL: nogawyks OK, you want a beginners input? I'm am much confused. I always though bulerias was 12--3--6-8-10- and now you guys are saying every other beat. I don't get it. Why couldn't I just go 1-3- 1-3- 1-3-? This whole compas thing is driving me nuts. I think I should try to accent and then I don't see any accents in your counts and I can't get the accents on the right beat anyway.
Yep thats the way this discussion always goes I'm afraid.
The trouble is people are discussing different things, and its very easy to get confused.
Let me take your first point "I always though bulerias was 12--3--6-8-10-"
Nope for starters. It is wrong to define it as one particular pattern of accents - the compas is there WHEREVER you put the accents, and there are many possibilities for different patterns of accents. Listing all the common ones just confuses people more IMO. Work with a dancer and you will see him/her tap out all kinds of accent patterns with all kinds of syncopation.
"and now you guys are saying every other beat. I don't get it."
They are talking about the basic 'pulse' - like how you internalise the beat, how you keep time. Example - When I play bulerias I tap my foot usually in twos or three's depending on what I am playing and what feels logical to lock me in. I am not counting or anything, just tapping my foot to what I feel to be the natural pulse, the groove. Same as if I was playing a blues or rock tune or whatever.
As for accenting, well I can do that with chords, golpe and so on depending on the falseta/rhythm part I am playing. Sometimes I find my foot joining in with certain accents, sometimes not.
Watch Paco here, see how he taps his foot? You can hear it clearly too:
Thats the al golpe rhythm 12, 1,* 3, 4,* 6, 7,* Do all his falsetas all follow this pattern of 'accents'? No, he's tapping his foot to lock in to the groove.
Watch the Tomatito Encuentro vid buleria - he taps his foot steadily in twos throughout, this is how he feels the pulse, but the accents for his toque (as performed by the palmeros) are actually on beats 12, 3, 7, 8 and 10. Where are his accents, is he worrying about all his golpes on 12,3,7,8,10? Nope. He plays all kinds of things syncopating with the accents, sometimes things that seem to bear no relation to those accents, but always, always, in 100% Tomatito rock solid compas.
Awesome! This thread is gold to us new players. Yes, it's still confusing but I'm copying all this to a word doc for later review, hehe. I'm going to check out those older posts too.
What Ricardo is saying to all of you experienced folks right now is definately over my head...
I thought what John O had to say was very interesting: "Rather than counting to 12, I like to think twice long and three times short. Why count 12 when you can you can count 5 instead? "long tap tap, long tap tap, short tap, short tap, short tap..." Keeping the clock in mind helps a lot too."
Anyway, I've been studying Ricardo's bulerias compas lesson from the FT site. (great lesson Ricardo!) It's a great start for feeling bulerias. I think I'm ready now to try some new patterns, but not sure where to start....
Jon, that post confused me and I already knew what you were talking about.
Beginners always think that bulerias is 12, 3, 6, 8, 10.
But that's kind of like saying that rock is 2, 4.
Sure, the accent in rock is usually on beats 2 and 4, but does that mean on every riff you will be slamming a power chord on those beats? Does that mean if you do a solo, you need to play an accented note on the 2 and 4 every single time? Does that mean that every rock song will need to strongly emphasize those beats to be considered rock?
Of course not...none of those things are true. Just like rock will have different feels, different accents, different riffs within the context of the "rock rhythm", bulerias has quite a variety as well.
When you are trying to think about a 12 beat pattern, well that's more difficult than a 4 beat pattern and thus the confusion. A simple way to look at it, is there is an underlying pulse (the pulse in rock would be 1 2 3 4, 1 2 3 4), and in bulerias it could be described as 2 4 6 8 10 12, or maybe just 2 4 6 repeat 2 4 6. The 12 3 6 8 10 that the beginners are taught is just a very common permutation or accent pattern in bulerias.
If you tap out 12 2 4 6 8 10, and then you PLAY 12 3 6 8 10, then the 3 is felt as a syncopation of the pulse.
If you tap out 12 2 4 6 8 10, and then you PLAY 12 3 6 8 10, then the 3 is felt as a syncopation of the pulse.
Yes, thats one approach.
The problem is that bulerias is all of what has been mentioned in this thread, so its impossible to break it down in one "truth" And different approaches suits different people.
Ramin was asking if you should start counting from 12 or 1:
quote:
I hear conflicting accounts on whether I should start counting from 12 or from 1.
Among the practical is also counting in sixes, and that helps when half a compas is added or cut off.
But as has been stated here several times, counting is just a way of describing and communicate the rythm in a very simplistic form and the best way of actually learning it is using the body and actually doing it to a record, loop, danceclass, metronome or similar.
You know, if you guys used the search function, I'm fairly certain that Ricardo has spoken of his way of keeping time. IRC, he suggested using a string of phonetic sounds, in addition to a count.
ORIGINAL: Miguel de Maria If you tap out 12 2 4 6 8 10, and then you PLAY 12 3 6 8 10, then the 3 is felt as a syncopation of the pulse.
True but I cant see a beginner getting anything from that. I was trying to untangle the confusion between the basic driving pulse, and whatever the accents might be, and trying to get away from this reliance on counting. Talking about the syncopation between the two is likely to really confuse people.
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