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I find myself getting slower...
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Ricardo
Posts: 14833
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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 RE: I find myself getting slower... (in reply to duende)
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quote:
Lots of drumers and bassists practice to play after the beat or before the beat.
It´s a good thing cause 100% ON the beat if its possible wont´be very groovy.
Yeah they do, but I actually feel exact opposite. Right smack on center, as if you had lots of other notes in between as a reference. And alot of cool groovy style stuff, "swing", happens with how you interpret the "contras" and things between the clicks. But being ON in the groove, the click disappears. It ain't easy, but for some it is natural.
I have heard a lot like this from some guys too that solo and like to play "behind" the beat. But that is not a groove to me. If the lead does that and I accompany, I have to ignore and hold it down. But sometimes it is a cool effect. But I consider it very advanced to try that, and not fun for the back up.
Of course when there is a problem, like slight rushing or dragging, etc, I would use your description to "fix" the problem. Like for the guy rushing, I feel uncomfortable, I will say "lay back a bit, play on the back beat, or behind the beat". What I really want is for the guy to be right ON. But these descriptions really work to fix the problems.
Ricardo
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Date Nov. 14 2006 8:45:02
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Ricardo
Posts: 14833
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: I find myself getting slower... (in reply to Guest)
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I know what you guys are saying. I just don't agree that is all. I dont' mean to let anyone "have it", but I hear this same arguement over and over.
quote:
I get a cold feeling from guitarists who are too exact, and then i mean like a midi file.
See not me, just the opposite. Gives me the shivers, it is really scary to me, amazing feeling. But after this you said somthing about dynamics. To me dynamics and playing on time are 2 different things. To keep time perfect and still control dynamics IS "exact" playing to me. And you can program midi to do that too, do dynamics I mean. You can't make midi sound like a guitar of course. I really notice when PEOPLE have worked so hard they can do that. I dont' hear it as often some people seem to. Flamenco guitarists are especially good. Chicuelo is amazingly in control. I love it. Vicente is so expressive, but tick tock like a clock. Nunez too. Tomatito. Moraito, Paco, etc.
Check out FRANCISCO SANCHEZ live DVD. Paco, Canizares, Bandera, the rumba Caña de Azucar. Watch the foot tap, put your metronome on. Find Their tempo (mine was around 115 bpm, but there are different calibrations), and notice they dont MOVE for like 5 minutes. That is what a groove is supposed to feel like, like it or not. Like the computer. And they are not using click or percussion, just the foot. It is an amazing feeling to me, but a lot of folks find it "cold". I will never understand.
Ricardo
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Date Nov. 14 2006 22:03:05
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sonikete
Posts: 735
Joined: Jan. 9 2004
From: Sweden
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RE: I find myself getting slower... (in reply to fevictor)
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quote:
To keep time perfect and still control dynamics IS "exact" playing to me.
But thats just another way of saying the same thing. To be able to feel that 'rubberband' feeling you have to have what you might call 'perfect rythm', its like walking a tightrope, you have to have perfect balance if you are going to feel free on it, and take risks.
The metronome is internalized and the rythmic tension is between your expression and this internal metronome.
The dynamics is another thing, yes, but i meant it as a way of making the music come alive, just as with the rythmic tension.
Lack of dynamics and lack of rythmic tension is what makes something 'perfect' sound dead to me.
I dont know if im explaining what i mean very well, but i have a feeling this is just like a lot of other things like picado or compas, where people have a very personal approach that works for them. It sounds like we are really saying the same thing.
For me Tomatito is 'there' all the time he is the perfect example and playing some of his things is where i discovered that way of feeling the rythm. Diego del Morao is another example, i saw people complaining about his lack of technique over at pacos´s board, but i wouldnt i care how he does it, he has that way of playing with the rythm that i love.
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Date Nov. 15 2006 1:21:48
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Conrad
Posts: 533
Joined: Jul. 16 2003
From: Toronto, ON, Canada
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RE: I find myself getting slower... (in reply to sonikete)
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quote:
Diego del Morao is another example, i saw people complaining about his lack of technique over at pacos´s board, but i wouldnt i care how he does it, he has that way of playing with the rythm that i love.
Wow. Some people eat blood sausage. Some people are idiots. Diego's mastery of technique is undeniable. It is perhaps only the absence of screaming picados in his playing that somehow provokes people to say such things, albeit I don't know what the Paco forum members said, maybe I'm way off. I'm very curious, but I don't read Spanish well, unfortunately.
Your comment is well taken, too... Who cares how anyone does it?
You are so correct, excellent feeling and tone, is creative with rhythm and everything. What a fantastic player. Does Moraito have any other sons?? Hehe
sorry to digress,
Con
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Date Nov. 15 2006 3:14:10
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Ricardo
Posts: 14833
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: I find myself getting slower... (in reply to sonikete)
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quote:
The first time i heard Diego was on a buleria on an album with Nina Pastori (where is the nje tab?) and couldnt stop playing it, its the same falsetas he plays on the solo piece on Fragua Futura.
This what you mean?:
http://www.flamenco-teacher.com/rm/ricardo.wmv
quote:
In a rock tune for example The drumer can keep the hi-hat on perfect
beat (click click click) but playing the snare slighly behind makes a "heavyer" sound and pushing the snare forward a more "agressive" feel.
Well I hear ya. But the snare is on the "up" beat for me. I guess it is ok to mess with the up beats a little. But the kick better be right on the hi hat. If it is not, which is the true time, the hi hat or the kick? Flams are meant to be early too, like grace notes. No problem there. I prefer drummers that are tight with the up beats too, not before, not after, right smack in the middle. And if there is "swing" I like the swing tight too if possible.
In my experience, when folks have a tendency to want to pull the tempo down, the "aggressive" person that holds it "up" appears to be on top of the beat, but really they are just keeping the tempo where it should be. I guess if that is truely a deliberate thing to play "aggressive" or "heavy" then I prefer neither, and it is just my choice. I prefer right on time, smack in the center.
Henrik, on one of your uploads like Alegrias, would you say you were deliberately thinking of being "aggressive" or "heavy" with your timing?
Ricardo
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Date Nov. 15 2006 6:18:12
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