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Posts: 211
Joined: Jun. 14 2006
From: Quebec City, Canada
Arpeggio newb question
Alright, I just went through Graf-Martinez V.1 and I started looking at the volume 2. As some may know, I'm almost a total beginner in guitar, even though I could play some Nirvana and Blink 182 when I was 12 , I never really got into playing guitar and never learned the theory and technique. I really got into learning about 3 months ago, but I can't practice as much as I'd like because of the overwhelming amount of work given by my University. I even bit my nails off uncounsciously in an exam this morning .
Now the question. Graf-Martinez doesn't explain the technique behind arpeggios but only gives you a few exercises. And I can't see much from the videos. How do you put/play your fingers on the strings? I tend to use the bottom of the tip of my fingers and barely use nails... which feels incorrect. My hand angulation could be the culprit. Should I place the strings at the junction of my fingertip and nail? Please tell me. I also have difficulty doing a full arpeggio at an increased speed. I do pimami but that last mi part always seems to be slower. Any tips? Or if anyone can post a proper technique video, I'd be darn glad .
Hopefully, next semester wont be so heavy and I'll try to look around for a teacher. I really want to improve though.
school sucks I better have a great job after this crap. I know your pain.
Haha, yes but not really .
What sucks even more is that I'll probably be out there for another 10 years if I specialize. Now, when building guitars is your new hobby... try to find time
RE: Arpeggio newb question (in reply to DoctorX2k2)
quote:
What sucks even more is that I'll probably be out there for another 10 years if I specialize. Now, when building guitars is your new hobby... try to find time
Most of the Doctors I've met use their spare time to play GOLF! It seems they are into that sort of thing. But a Doctor who puts down the scalpel at the end of the day, and picks up the chisel should be commended. perhaps making a guitar is a bit like performing a surgical operation in some ways?
Jb
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¡Si esto no está en compas, esto no es el Flamenco!
RE: Arpeggio newb question (in reply to DoctorX2k2)
Doctor. What you are talking about is fingerpicking technique, which to do properly, is a subject all on its own. Its really the same as what classical players do when playing arpeggios. You should either get a good classical teacher to show you the proper way or, get a good book on the subject. Here's a good website to check out....... http://www.guitarprinciples.com/index.html
Hope this helps. Its a lot of work initially, but it will pay off for years to come.....Hugh.
RE: Arpeggio newb question (in reply to DoctorX2k2)
I had this book by or about segovia when i started, i dont remember, there was this photo showing his hand gripping the bass and three treble strings and there was this small triangle of space between the strings his thumb and index finger.
The photo was from an angle looking down on the thumb and bass string. Hard to explain but maybe you understand. That help me a lot when i started.
Posts: 211
Joined: Jun. 14 2006
From: Quebec City, Canada
RE: Arpeggio newb question (in reply to JBASHORUN)
quote:
ORIGINAL: JBASHORUN
Most of the Doctors I've met use their spare time to play GOLF! It seems they are into that sort of thing. But a Doctor who puts down the scalpel at the end of the day, and picks up the chisel should be commended. perhaps making a guitar is a bit like performing a surgical operation in some ways?
Jb
I also play golf It's like a walk in a parc... with a lot of swears
WHATEVER YOU DO, DONN"T GET A CLASSICAL TEACHER. Flamenco and classical are very different. If you take one or two lessons to kind of get the idea that's probably ok. But although the concepts(arpegios, escalas, acordes etc) are the same, they are very different in execution. That is why classical teachers discourage people from learning too much flamenco and vice versa. I studied classical and when I got into flamenco I had to spen years retraining myself. It is a litttle over 8 years that ive been playing and i am barely overcoming the habits from classical.
How are they different? sequences (pimami, pami, etc) or motion (use of muscles and coordination)?
I've only been at flamenco for 2 years - so go with the advice of more experienced players if it conflicts with what I suggest. Having said that, I've been looking at my right hand position a lot lately, including for tremelo, and this is what I've come up with. It has made a huge difference in my accuracy and tone as well as my general feel of the instrument. I don't have a video camera, so I've included a few videos of other players that I think will be helpful.
You want balance across the hand. Scott Tenant talks about this a lot in Pumping Nylon, but it's a principle that I think applies equally to classical or flamenco guitar. You don't want the thumb or any of the fingers to have to extend too far from the palm because you lose power and control. In fact, if you watch most pros' do arpeggios from straight on, it's hard to tell which finger is doing what, because all of the action is happening under the palm. Check out Paco's right hand position throughoutt this . The hyperactive camera work actually helps you see his hand at all angles. Whether he's doing arpeggios, tremolo or picado, his palm stays centered over the strings so that he maintains a nice consistent arch in his i, m, and a fingers.
Generally speaking your starting contact points for p, i, m, and a will be the flesh just behind the nail. That's the very tip of your i, m, and a fingers and the outside corner of your thumb.
Find your position by checking it at multiple angles. Any single point of view can be a little deceiving. Try sitting directly in front of a large mirror. Make sure that the angle of the mirror is straight ahead or slightly above you. Get in your playing position and lay your right palm flat on the strings with your fingers extending in a straight line from your forearm. Let your thumb run along the bass e string. Then slowly lift your palm straight out away from the strings. Let the thumb come in toward the palm, letting the joint bend in order to maintain contact at the desired point. As your palm rises, slowly curl your i, m, and a fingers under your palm until they fall naturally on the g, b, and e strings, respectively, again with the proper contact point. Looking in the mirror, you should end up with a right hand that looks like Paco's in this . Once you have it, look down at your hand and try memorize how it looks and feels from your perspective so that you can find it instinctively.
The biggest difference between the classical and flamenco hand position here is that, when in this starting position, classical players' palms are usually further up off the strings. This means that their fingers and thumb have less of an arch. In other words, the break angle for their fingers is at the first joint. Flamenco players, most notably PdL, keep the palm close to the strings. If you look at his hand in the videos, the break angle is more at the second joint of his fingers than at the first, with just a slight bend in the first joint. There is no rigid rule here, though. Some flamenco players have more of a classical position, and a lot fall somewhere in between. That's something you can work out after you establish the basic position.
Personally, getting into this position for me was all about getting the angle of the thumb right. I used to play arpeggios with basically only the flesh and my thumb. The thumb basically ran parallel to the bass strings, and I had no definition or control. This also pulls your palm to far up (towar the bass strings) forcing your fingers to reach out to play the trebles, which makes is almost impossible to play clean, strong rest strokes. Check out Ricardo's thumb angle in this video at about 1:25. Notice how it's curved and angled back so that it stays close to the palm and the nail can make contact with the strings. After I adapted to this thumb position the rest of my hand position for arpeggio, tremolo, picado, even rasgueado sort of fell into place.
By the way, I can relate to the school workload. I'm less than one month away from my first round of law school finals, and it's getting pretty crazy. In a way, though, I think I get more out of my limited practice time now, because I try to make the most of it. Rather than noodling around for a couple of hours, I pick a couple of traditional solea falsetas and slowly work through them, trying to make sure that the technique, tone, and compas is sound. It's actually helped me a lot. So hang in there!
I'm sorry for the ridiculously long post. This is complicated stuff to explain in writing, and I enjoy talking about it too much. Anyway, I hope it's helpful.
I have some basic lessons to help arps over at FT. And a special exercise for getting the pimami as fast as you need it. I don't mind giving away the secret for me. It has to do a bit with full plant vs sequential plant, and what happens between the a and m finger the way back. the exercise I made focuses on that problem.
Posts: 143
Joined: Jan. 23 2005
From: New York, New York
RE: Arpeggio newb question (in reply to DoctorX2k2)
Good. I'm glad the info is helpful. It's always hard to know in writing what explanations will be useful. Sometimes it takes a few tries before you find a concept that clicks. That's how it works for me, anyway. Maybe I'm just slow, though.
Once you have the basic position issues resolved, definitely check out Ricardo's lessons on arpeggios and planting. Learning how to plant effectively helps with multiple techniques.
By the way, are you building a guitar?! That's very cool if you are!
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, I never really got into playing guitar and never learned the theory and technique. I really got into learning about 3 months ago, but I can't practice as much as I'd like because of the overwhelming amount of work given by my University. I even bit my nails off uncounsciously in an exam this morning 
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