Counting Bulerias

Costs are rising and times are tough.
Please consider a donation to keep this
place going.

Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.

This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva and Tom Blackshear who went ahead of us.

We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.

Counting Bulerias

You are logged in as Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >>Discussions >>General >>

Page: [1] 2 3 > >>

Message

<< Newer Topic Older Topic >>

Ramin

Posts: 103
Joined: Mar. 15 2005
From: Toronto, Canada

Counting Bulerias

quote:

Anders on Ricardo: He taught me in few words how to count bulerias in two, this revolutionized completely my playing

Ricardo,
I was wondering if you could share your Bulerias counting technique with us before the forum shuts down for good! I hear conflicting accounts on whether I should start counting from 12 or from 1.

Thanks,
Ramin

_____________________________

What we are today comes from out thoughts of yesterday and our present thoughts build our life tomorrow: our life is the creation of our mind.
-Buddha

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 13 2006 14:45:44

el ted

Posts: 466
Joined: Nov. 13 2003

RE: Counting Bulerias (in reply to Ramin)

Please, please, please tell me! My bulerias is wobbly to say the least.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 13 2006 15:02:18

sonikete

Posts: 735
Joined: Jan. 9 2004
From: Sweden

RE: Counting Bulerias (in reply to Ramin)

Bulerias counting is basically the same as any other 12-beat rythm. It starts on 1 but then the ear picks it up as beginning on 12, for spaniards this isnt a big deal because the count; 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 - 6 - 7 - 8 - 9 - 10 - 1 - 2 - 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 etc

But counting is something i only do when i have problems learning a phrase or a step sequence.

I think the best way of learning to be in compas is to learn several different rythm variations and get them into your system, then after a while all these different approaches comes together into some sort of subconsious understanding.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 13 2006 15:13:58

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Counting Bulerias (in reply to el ted)

Guys,
Ricardo has a downloadable video lesson on Bulerias Compás available for only $8 at FT.
Remember, he doesn't play guitar just as a hobby, but is a full time teacher and performer.
That's how he makes a living.
He already helps folk considerably, by giving detailled answers to questions.
But asking for a discourse on Bulerias...?

So let's not bother the man too much.
Especially when he's gone to the trouble of making a video on the subject!

cheers

Ron

_____________________________

A good guitar might be a good guitar
But it takes a woman to break your heart

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 13 2006 15:19:09

Guest

[Deleted] (in reply to Ramin)

[Deleted by Admins]

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 13 2006 15:26:36

el ted

Posts: 466
Joined: Nov. 13 2003

RE: Counting Bulerias (in reply to Ramin)

Whoops! I didn't know Ricardo was a professional. I will seek out his Buleria system.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 13 2006 15:37:01

sonikete

Posts: 735
Joined: Jan. 9 2004
From: Sweden

RE: Counting Bulerias (in reply to Ramin)

It seems that you need to upload something to be taken serious here...

Im accompaning a singer on a record that is available thru elflamencovivie, would that count?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 13 2006 15:39:38

koella

Posts: 2194
Joined: Sep. 10 2005
From: holland

RE: Counting Bulerias (in reply to Ramin)

El Ted: When you count till twelve, starting on 12, you tap your foot on 12, 2, 4, 6, 8, 10. It feels really nice when you can play over this tapping.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 13 2006 15:49:18

sonikete

Posts: 735
Joined: Jan. 9 2004
From: Sweden

RE: Counting Bulerias (in reply to Ramin)

Bulerias starts on 1, nothing else, but when you are "inside" it feels like on "12".

Professionals either tap;

Paco style or traditional in three´s: 1 2 - 4 5 - 7 8 - 10 11 -
Or more common nowadays, in two´s; - 2 - 4 - 6 - 8 - 10 - 12 in a straight rythm.

Then accents come on top of that straight foottapping and the loudest accents are on '12' with an 'A' chord, '3' with a Bb chord and musical phrases usually ends on '10' on the A. But there are millions of ways to accentuate it and it could be played in any key.

A common way for example the caja to play to that is what you usually find in tutorials;

... 12 - - 3 - - - 7 8 - 10 -
or
... 12 - - 3 - - 6 - 8 - 10 -

Spanish people would count that;

... 1 2 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 13 2006 15:56:22

el ted

Posts: 466
Joined: Nov. 13 2003

RE: Counting Bulerias (in reply to Ramin)

Thanks Koella.

Romerito,
Simon has stated his position in a thread in the ' General' section entitled something like 'Ok one more time about this forum.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 13 2006 15:56:59

duende

Posts: 3053
Joined: Dec. 15 2003
From: Sweden

RE: Counting Bulerias (in reply to Ramin)

Once i was going to buy a lesson from flamenco teacher but what stopped was that i had to put a minimum amount of money in their account.

If the lesson cost 8$ witch is less than 80 swe KR i DON`T wanna have to put 400 SWE kr in that account only to buy one lesson.

How ever i think it´s a good source for thoes who wants to use it.

Ricardo. im just curious. If i buy a video whats one it and how long is it?

I would like to get that rumba vid.

Henrik

_____________________________

This is hard stuff!
Don't give up...
And don't make it a race.
Enjoy the ray of sunshine that comes with every new step in knowledge.

RON

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 13 2006 16:13:18

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Counting Bulerias (in reply to Ramin)

quote:

Im accompaning a singer on a record that is available thru elflamencovivie, would that count?

ofcourse it does, witch one is it mate ?

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 13 2006 16:19:47

Ramin

Posts: 103
Joined: Mar. 15 2005
From: Toronto, Canada

RE: Counting Bulerias (in reply to Ron.M)

quote:

Ron.M: So let's not bother the man too much.
Especially when he's gone to the trouble of making a video on the subject!

Sorry Ron! I was not trying to bother anyone and I was certainly unaware of Ricardo's videos. Thanks to those who responded!

Ramin

_____________________________

What we are today comes from out thoughts of yesterday and our present thoughts build our life tomorrow: our life is the creation of our mind.
-Buddha

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 13 2006 16:25:30

sonikete

Posts: 735
Joined: Jan. 9 2004
From: Sweden

RE: Counting Bulerias (in reply to Ramin)

Its a french singer living in DK who is a bit of a 'Camaronero' and writes a lot of own material. The name of the record comes from the text from a rumba he wrote on the record where the text refers to him not being born in spain.

I dont know about if there are rules about promoting stuff but here it is;

http://www.elflamencovive.es/musicatodoficha.asp?refe=15658

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 13 2006 16:26:58

Guest

[Deleted] (in reply to Ramin)

[Deleted by Admins]

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 13 2006 16:27:08

sonikete

Posts: 735
Joined: Jan. 9 2004
From: Sweden

RE: Counting Bulerias (in reply to Ramin)

quote:

With all due respect, I beg to differ

Well if we are talking about how it starts then i dont see how im wrong, but if you take a rythmic cycle out of it it could of course be between 12 and 6 or 12 and 10 or a zillion other variations.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 13 2006 16:30:15

Guest

[Deleted] (in reply to sonikete)

[Deleted by Admins]

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 13 2006 16:35:31

sonikete

Posts: 735
Joined: Jan. 9 2004
From: Sweden

RE: Counting Bulerias (in reply to Guest)

quote:

Define "how it starts."

There are two ways of thinking about it, one is kind of theoretical about bulerias relation to solea for example and thats what im talking about.

If you take the traditional solea escobilla melody and speed it up to bulerias tempo you understand what im talking about.

The other is a more practical approach how it actually sounds. Beginning on 12´s

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 13 2006 16:42:09

Guest

[Deleted] (in reply to Ramin)

[Deleted by Admins]

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 13 2006 17:03:54

duende

Posts: 3053
Joined: Dec. 15 2003
From: Sweden

RE: Counting Bulerias (in reply to sonikete)

Är Thierrys cd bra eller? Jag tänkte köpa den på "nordic flamenco festival" men jag gjorde inte det.

_____________________________

This is hard stuff!
Don't give up...
And don't make it a race.
Enjoy the ray of sunshine that comes with every new step in knowledge.

RON

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 13 2006 17:06:58

sonikete

Posts: 735
Joined: Jan. 9 2004
From: Sweden

RE: Counting Bulerias (in reply to Ramin)

Sorry everyone this is going to bve in swedish,

Ja jag tycker den är ok, jag är inte helt nöjd med min egen insats för att inspelningen blev rätt stressad och jag var inte riktigt i form, men emil och robban gör en del intressanta grejor på den.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 13 2006 17:10:16

duende

Posts: 3053
Joined: Dec. 15 2003
From: Sweden

RE: Counting Bulerias (in reply to Ramin)

some falsetas start on 12 some on 10 some on 1 but Bulerias is a fast 12 cycle so it starts on 1.

The chord on 12 is a sycopation to 1.

but why count? siguiriyas is much harder. and i had a much harder time getting into compas of Alegrias.

I think it´s a "brain ghost" everybody is told that bulerias is so tricky and the rythms so hard so when it´s time time for playing the first A and Bb chord people get lost cause their all nervous cause bulerias is soooo hard.

get my point anybody?

The only way bulerias is hard is that you can phrase the rythm(s) so diffrently
and the accents.

If you play the basic Juan martin book bulerias (witch is very good to learn)
theres no mystery anywhere.

_____________________________

This is hard stuff!
Don't give up...
And don't make it a race.
Enjoy the ray of sunshine that comes with every new step in knowledge.

RON

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 13 2006 17:13:45

sonikete

Posts: 735
Joined: Jan. 9 2004
From: Sweden

RE: Counting Bulerias (in reply to Ramin)

quote:

some falsetas start on 12 some on 10 some on 1 but Bulerias is a fast 12 cycle so it starts on 1.

Yes, thats how i understand it as well, but you could start anywhere including all synchopations.

BTW Here is the same discussion on paco´s forum;
Llevando el compas

And another more academic approach;
Explicación del compás

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 13 2006 17:16:33

Guest

[Deleted] (in reply to Ramin)

[Deleted by Admins]

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 13 2006 17:29:39

sonikete

Posts: 735
Joined: Jan. 9 2004
From: Sweden

RE: Counting Bulerias (in reply to Ramin)

quote:

We are kind of saying the same thing. Once you have started the bulerias, the compas starts on 12(from my perspective) The only compas in which it starts on 1 would be the very first compas when starting up the buleria.

We are saying the same thing, I said it was a theoretical approach. But Solea, Alegrias and Bulerias are basically the same thing out of a historical perspective.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 13 2006 17:34:42

John O.

Posts: 1723
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Seeheim-Jugenheim, Germany

RE: Counting Bulerias (in reply to sonikete)

There are falsetas which start on 12, falsetas which start on 1. I believe (but am not sure) the origin of this is depending on where in bulerias the dance is. I only assume this because alegrias are the same - intro often starts on 1, verse on 12, escobilla on 1. Same with soleá, polo and other related dances. So from a completely musical standpoint, you can do it either way if you're not accompanying.

Rather than counting to 12, I like to think twice long and three times short. Why count 12 when you can you can count 5 instead? "long tap tap, long tap tap, short tap, short tap, short tap..." Keeping the clock in mind helps a lot too.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 13 2006 17:35:37

sonikete

Posts: 735
Joined: Jan. 9 2004
From: Sweden

RE: Counting Bulerias (in reply to Ramin)

The counting is just a tool to describe it, it came afterwards as a way to analyze and categorize it, but it has a relation to the other 12 beats.

And even if a teacher uses the practical approach beginning on 12´s, it would also be good to show the relation to the other 12 beats to clear up some confusion by taking the escobilla melody in alegrias or solea and speeding it up to bulerias speed.

I made an upload to show what i mean in the audio section..

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 13 2006 18:01:39

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Counting Bulerias (in reply to Guest)

I'm no expert, but I'm definitely with Romerito here.
If you had to walk into a room where people were playing Bulerias, then how would you know which "count" they "started" on anyway...(?)
(Ooops...bit of the Zen stuff floating in here..Tame it Man! Tame it!!!

)

If you felt like joining in, say by playing palmas, then nobody would care what beat or "count" you personally started on...so long as you kept the rhythm.
A cycle is a cycle.

cheers

Ron

_____________________________

A good guitar might be a good guitar
But it takes a woman to break your heart

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 13 2006 20:40:47

sonikete

Posts: 735
Joined: Jan. 9 2004
From: Sweden

RE: Counting Bulerias (in reply to Ramin)

quote:

If you felt like joining in, say by playing palmas, then nobody would care what beat or "count" you personally started on...so long as you kept the rhythm.

Yes i already said this this was the analythical description to show the connection between alegrias, solea and bulerias. Listen to clip and count it and you will see what i mean.

This approach has just a pedagogic function for people who needs it. And the practical approach with starting on 12´s has already been mentioned.

This getting into the same black and white, right or wrong discussion as with cante vs guitar, tradition vs modern, soloist vs accompanist.

None of these things are in any opposing positions.

What they do on the example i uploaded is to mark;

1 2 - 4 - - 7 8 - 10 - - in the escobilla

(Its like paco´s foot in bulerias but taking away the '5' and '11' beats. Paco taps 1 2 - 4 5 - 7 8 - 10 11 - )

..then it accelerates to bulerias without any break in these cycles.

Sorry, if you printed this thread before i had to edit it because it wasnt making sense)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 13 2006 20:51:47

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Counting Bulerias (in reply to sonikete)

sonikete,
I wasn't saying that anybody was wrong.
I was just chucking in my own two cents worth.
That's not making things black or white or modern v traditional surely?

cheers

Ron

_____________________________

A good guitar might be a good guitar
But it takes a woman to break your heart

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 13 2006 21:03:13