Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.
This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva, Tom Blackshear and Sean O'Brien who went ahead of us.
We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.
i was talkin about lebanon cedar , and Richard Red cedar , not sure if he was confused , just it..
Here is a quote from the advertisement on the Jose Ramirez site for the new edition of Jose III's book:
"One of the most significant contributions of José Ramírez III was the popularisation of red cedar as a material for the top, in addition to the already used German spruce, providing a unique and deep sound."
In my original edition of the book, Ramirez gives the scientific name thuja plicata.
I first became aware of the use of western red cedar in personal dealings with Jose Ramirez III himself, more than 60 years ago.
I have seen a lot of "cedar top" guitars since then. I own two, a 1967 Ramirez 1a blanca and a 2016 "Rodriguez model" from Tom Blackshear. Every "cedar top" guitar I have ever seen was western red cedar from North America.
Yesterday I asked Google whether Lebanon Cedar was used for guitar construction. Google’s large language model AI relied,”Yes,” and linked to B&G Guitars. They make an electric hollow body with a top made from Lebanon cedar. Since their factory is in Tel Aviv I find their claim credible, due to the cultural significance of the species in Israel, and consequent general knowledge.
One statement in their description is suspect. They say the Lebanon cedar is treated with a “natural aniline dye,” then given a thin coat of shellac. The quoted phrase contradicts itself. The discovery of aniline dyes in the mid-19th century was the foundation of the artificially produced chemical dye industry.
I would be surprised if Lebanon cedar were used for nylon strung guitar tops, since it is about 1.7 times as dense as spruce or western red cedar. Ramirez told me he adopted western red cedar due to its similar properties to spruce and its ready availability at the time he was scaling up production.
I have seen one or two dreadnought size steel strings with mahogany tops, so steel string makers have used woods denser than spruce for tops.
Yesterday I asked Google whether Lebanon Cedar was used for guitar construction. Google’s large language model AI relied,”Yes,” and linked to B&G Guitars. They make an electric hollow body with a top made from Lebanon cedar. Since their factory is in Tel Aviv I find their claim credible, due to the cultural significance of the species in Israel, and consequent general knowledge.
One statement in their description is suspect. They say the Lebanon cedar is treated with a “natural aniline dye,” then given a thin coat of shellac. The quoted phrase contradicts itself. The discovery of aniline dyes in the mid-19th century was the foundation of the artificially produced chemical dye industry.
I would be surprised if Lebanon cedar were used for nylon strung guitar tops, since it is about 1.7 times as dense as spruce or western red cedar. Ramirez told me he adopted western red cedar due to its similar properties to spruce and its ready availability at the time he was scaling up production.
I have seen one or two dreadnought size steel strings with mahogany tops, so steel string makers have used woods denser than spruce for tops.
RNJ
Eugene Clark told me that Ramirez was visiting the US and saw a train loaded with roof shingles and a light bulb went on over his head. Obviously this is an anecdotal account, do you know how he encountered the Western Red Cedar? ( indeed in the cypress family)
I was told by my teacher that the guys at Ramirez used to get Cuban cigars that came in cedar boxes, and they realized that the wood had good properties for a soundboard.
I think your teacher has received information that has mutated a bit in the retelling.
Cigar box wood is an aromatic member of the mahogany family generally referred to as Spanish Cedar, Cedrella Odorata, or Cedro, etc...It's not a cedar. It's a wood of choice for the necks of Spanish guitars and also other components. While it could be used on guitar tops it's not the Red Cedar used on the tops of Ramirez guitars.
Ramirez talks about his "discovery" of Red Cedar in his book "Things about the Guitar". He had sent an assistant to a wood lot to seek out the above mentioned neck wood and the assistant came back saying the lot did have a shipment of cedar on hand. Ramirez requested he bring back a sample before committing to buying any quantity and the assistant returned, not with the Cedrella neck wood, but with some red cedar. Ramirez recognized that this wood had attractive qualities for use as a top wood and the rest is "his" history.
By his own words:
"Red Cedar (Thuja Plicata) is an evergreen conifer (Gymnosperm), whose aspects as a tree bears no resemblance to the types mentioned above.* However, it is strikingly similar to the so-called German spruce, more precisely denominated "Picea-Falso Abeto" and scientifically called "Picea Abies", which is the wood that has been used for stringed instrument bellies for time immemorial..."
That's the wood guitar makers are referring to when talking about cedar tops. It's generally sourced from the west coast of Canada.
* The types mentioned earlier in the chapter include the aforementioned "Cedrella Odoratta", which he states is used for guitar necks, and also (as a nod to Manitas and Ramzi) "Cedrus Spi", a gymnosperm tree with perennial leaves which is produced in Lebanon (Cedrus Líbani), the Himalayas (Cedrus Deodara), and in Algeria and Morroco (Cedrus Atlantica), all of which he refers to as being genuine cedars.
yes, just noticed that the German Spruce (pine tops we say) split at the "order" so Pinales instead of Cupressales....that means the "semper virgin cypress" we love for flamenco is closer related to the "cedar" top than the spruce top, despite the fact that thuja looks darker. Crazy. That begs the question...any examples of a mediterranean cypress TOP guitar??? Or is it too stiff?
I Richard , you tried to go simple , but i think you complicated more..
Valeriano Bernal (and many others) use Cedar from Lebanon (and near by) , for flamenco and classic , they have in stock and for order .
If we talk about acoustic (steel ) semi acoustic , even Gibson uses for long time... and also small workshops or so so . Go to youtube and check it out , you have multiple examples , a lot really.
I Richard , you tried to go simple , but i think you complicated more..
Valeriano Bernal (and many others) use Cedar from Lebanon (and near by) , for flamenco and classic , they have in stock and for order .
Go to youtube and check it out , you have multiple examples , a lot really.
If Valeriano Bernal is using Cedar from Lebanon he's keeping quiet about it.
There are ten models of guitar listed on his website, nine flamencas and one classical. Six of the flamencas and the only classical are described as having "tapa armónica de abeto alemán o cedro canadiense."
The first flamenco guitar I made was done in Spain and I used cypress sourced from Turkey for its back and sides. The wood was a little green and it took a few years for the guitar to come into its own as the wood aged but it ultimately ended up being really nice (I still have it). I subsequently ordered about ten sets from the same supplier out of Turkey (during a free shipping sale) and after some delay received a bundle of not very attractive and slightly green wood. I was pretty disappointed so I stickered it and then put it aside and forgot about it. About ten years later I checked it and it had aged into pretty nice wood so I used some and the guitars turned out well. I still have some sets, but it's not my best stuff. It's OK, though.
During the discussions I had at the time about suppliers I was told people were also sourcing Mediterranean Cypress out of Lebanon. I'm pretty sure some Spanish makers were using it as that's who gave me the info. I've never actually seen Lebanese Cypress in milled form, however, at least that I'm aware of. And the Mediterranean Cypress out of Lebanon I was told about would have been intended for back and sides, not tops, so I'm not sure how pertinent this is to this discussion.
It is curious, however, that some of the pictures of Lebanese Cedar I've seen online do hold a bit of a resemblance to the Turkish wood I received as cypress. It would be interesting to find some of the real deal stuff and see what it feels and smells like (if that makes sense, lol). I wonder if it's being misrepresented as being a cypress at times by some suppliers? Is it possible we're confusing the Lebanese Cedar with cypress? Or vice versa?
Mind you, in the cases I'm mentioning it was not intended for use as tops. But it is curious. Nootka cypress (aka Alaskan yellow cedar) is often marketed as a top wood while being referred to as a cedar. It's a true cypress, however. I've used it for back and sides before and it also makes a good guitar. It's a nice wood, highly aromatic and very pure looking.
they used specially for backs , and canada or other for top. altough i think i saw somewhere one all cedar
I have to make a correction for gibson, my mistake , they use a lot Zilian wood...for a long time , and not these cedar (i think)
Theres some videos of Valeriano guitar with that cedar , and other makers , hard to find , they re not marked on the videos names as Cedar etc guitars Special hard to find since theres an Irish song (?) with that name..
Una de las maderas más especiales que tenemos aquí en nuestro taller es el Cedro del Líbano. Estás maderas vienen de las vigas de La Real Casa de la Moneda de Sevilla fue construida en el siglo XVI y reformada en el siglo XVIII. Cesó su actividad como ceca en la segunda mitad del siglo XIX. Con ella conseguimos unas guitarras muy especiales tanto en sonido, en comodidad e historia.
After you emphasized Valeriano Bernal (hijo) a second time, a brief search turned up the video where he praises cedar of Lebanon for backs and sides, but carefully distinguishes it from Canadian cedar, used for tops.
Cedar of Lebanon has nearly the same density and stiffness (Young's modulus) as Mediterranean cypress, so it is not surprising that Bernal likes it for flamenco backs and sides.
After you emphasized Valeriano Bernal (hijo) a second time, a brief search turned up the video where he praises cedar of Lebanon for backs and sides, but carefully distinguishes it from Canadian cedar, used for tops.
Cedar of Lebanon has nearly the same density and stiffness (Young's modulus) as Mediterranean cypress, so it is not surprising that Bernal likes it for flamenco backs and sides.
RNJ
Sure, but he’s only using them for the models that cost under $500, you know the ones MdCaca chases.
The fellow at the end states that C. Lebani is stiffer than Mediterranean cypress, that’s not really true. All these woods have a general range of stiffness, but stiffness both along the grain and across the grain can vary substantially according to the conditions it grows in and the genetic background of specific groves of trees. The range of C. Lebani is up into Turkey, where there’s more of it growing wild. I’m not an expert on this, but I understand there’s a reforesting project in actual Lebanese territory and you’re not supposed to rely on this as a commercially available species. There are also vast tracts on C. Lebani Forest which is set aside as tree sanctuary land.
In the accounts of late dynastic Egypt C. Lebani was traded along the Turkish coast, Cyprus ( ironically named) on down in the growing range of the tree. The large boats in Egypt that were large enough to require wood hulls, not simple reed hulls, were almost exclusively made with imported timber.
There were no timber forests in lower Egypt ( the half nearest the sea - the upper Nile in Nubia, the lower Alexandria) by the late dynasties ship building was pretty sophisticated and required a lot of timber. This was a major reason for Egyptian conquest to the north, they were constantly engaged in trade, treaties and wars over goods and the paths through various lands to get the goods. Egypt by comparison had cotton and fine linen. All this resulted in the deforestation of these forests north of Egypt even before the last dynasty of Macedonian generals ruled Egypt. Did you know that there were seven rulers in Egypt all named Cleopatra? The last one was Cleopatra the 7th.
See the reason wood was important to Egypt is that it was a big country with a central river. In order for Egyptian rulers to control and administrate the entire country fast moving boats were needed to move up and down the Nile to keep situations in control. Egypt was subject to the same kinds of conflicts and break away groups as other countries, but a big reason ancient Egypt was able to have a more of less culture of continuity for 3000 years is due to the navigation of the Nile River and the reliability of the river to flood once a year. The Nile was also bedded in a slightly different place 4000 years ago when the pyramids were built ( that’s a 2000 year long duration of pyramid and monument construction) and the river was used for floating giant obelisks and stone blocks to build temples and other structures. Vast amounts of wood was needed for this kind of construction to make barges and cranes. Whole trees must have been rafted across the sea and into the Nile Delta ports to be moved later into the temple areas like Luxor. The pyramids at Giza sucked up not only mega tons of stone, but timber and raw trees for that massive construction site.
The river was diverted into a series of man made channels around the famous Sphinx and up to the pyramids in order to barge in the blocks used to make the pyramids. Later the river changed course to its modern path and the channels eventually were back filled by human and natural processes. All of this required a steady flow of timber from the north over the length of time it took to build one of those pointy skyscrapers, which was about 20 to 25 years.
Anyway, yeah, C. Libani - not superior to Cypress, not a wood for making tops. Not even common with guitar makers, but if a guy picked up some boards of C. Libani and had them sliced up, why not? But this is not some magic bullet wood, it’s not sensational. Any wood makes nice guitars if you understand how to use it, hell even papier mache’ makes an ok guitar.
The Great Guitar Whisperer laid some info on me several months ago regarding the famous papier mache guitar. In the opinion of TGGW the Torres guitar might not have been a one off to prove that back & sides wood doesn’t matter and that the top wood is crucial, may not be the actual reason Tony constructed it. It could even be that AT was thinking or experimenting with mass production techniques.
Once a year in an urban parkland in northen Illinois a great guitar shaped pumpkin rises into the air at night above the tree tops in the park and casts aspersions on all the bad little guitar makers, admonishing them to work harder and talk less ****. But for the good guitar makers The Great Guitar Whisperer throws handfuls of candy with little hand written notes full of wisdom.
the river was used for floating giant obelisks and stone blocks to build temples and other structures. Vast amounts of wood was needed for this kind of construction to make barges and cranes. Whole trees must have been rafted across the sea and into the Nile Delta ports to be moved later into the temple areas like Luxor. The pyramids at Giza sucked up not only mega tons of stone, but timber and raw trees for that massive construction site.
False. The alien spacecraft transported the large stones and used anti gravity beams to lay the blocks in place.
the river was used for floating giant obelisks and stone blocks to build temples and other structures. Vast amounts of wood was needed for this kind of construction to make barges and cranes. Whole trees must have been rafted across the sea and into the Nile Delta ports to be moved later into the temple areas like Luxor. The pyramids at Giza sucked up not only mega tons of stone, but timber and raw trees for that massive construction site.
False. The alien spacecraft transported the large stones and used anti gravity beams to lay the blocks in place.
I see you are a subscriber to the Von Stanken concept 😆
Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px
Printable Version
New Messages
No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages
Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages
Locked w/o New Messages
Post New Thread