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Luthier's first flamenco guitar vs. production model
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ernandez R
Posts: 737
Joined: Mar. 25 2019
From: Alaska USA
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 RE: Luthier's first flamenco guitar ... (in reply to Robzoid)
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Interesting subject, I'm on guitars 13-15 right now but haven't actively tried to sell my guitars, I have a few in a gallery here in my small Alaskan village but more as a novelty. I've had two commissions. I've had people buy my guitars because they fell in love with them for various reasons. But...
Before I actively list a guitar here on the Foro or the Delcamp I want to produce a quality product. I'm fairly skilled but on the backside of the age eye hand coordination curve but my instruments are getting better. I'm hoping my next builds, two classical and two flamenco will be the ones.
There is a world of difference between building an electric guitar and a Flamenco. Don't want to pass judgment but it's a reality. Don't get me wrong guys are building stunning examples of quality and creativity that I could never match but building a luthiery strung instrument is something else.
On the other hand having someone local that you can be involved with during the process could be rewarding as long as you understand what it is you are getting into, what it will cost, and the likely outcome.
In the end the perfect guitar is the one you play, the one that doesn't disappear into its case in the back of a closet or under the bed. It's not so pretty you are afraid to touch it or take it out on the porch on a nice evening, hand it to a friend or a trusted youth. She should inspire. To build such a guitar be it a solid body or Flamenco, takes time, neck shape and fretwork take experience, the woods we use are as variable as leaves on a tree and need consideration, even the day or time of day we glue up a top or back become critical to success, sure there is a YouTube video that shows how to do these things but building a fine instrument is not changing the oil on a car or a recipe for sesame chicken.
If I was you I would do it. All you have to loose is $2k
If you feel you can't afford to give a couple AMUs away ( in my aircraft world well $1k a Aviation Monetary Unit ) then let me recommend a couple flamenco builders in the US who post here regularly: Andy Culpepper, and Ethan Deutsch, Stephan Faulk. Andy is on the east cost and Ethan on the west, Stephan is in Japan. There are others but these guys regularly post here on the Foro and share valuable information with our community. They also sell a basic low budget flamenco model.
That's my two cents which one must consider when searching the Internet for advice ;)
Photo is my first guitar.
HR
Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px
 Attachment (1)
_____________________________
I prefer my flamenco guitar spicy,
doesn't have to be fast,
should have some meat on the bones,
can be raw or well done,
as long as it doesn't sound like it's turning green on an elevator floor.
www.instagram.com/threeriversguitars
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date May 11 2021 14:59:13
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RobF
Posts: 1611
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
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RE: Luthier's first flamenco guitar ... (in reply to Robzoid)
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I don’t think any of the advice that was given here is necessarily bad advice. You’ve provided a reasonable amount of information with your question and have shown you already have given it enough consideration to realize there is a potential downside to going local. But seeing that option has received so much support, can I toss in a couple more suggestions?
The quote you were given is low. Perhaps sit down with the fellow and discuss how the figure was arrived at. Was he already factoring in a discount due to his lack of experience? That would tell me he’s reasonable, but it also tells me he’s going to want to get paid for his efforts. Otherwise he’d likely ask for more, if it’s to be on spec.
The odds lie with the guitar being over built. That’s the honest truth of it. If the luthier is any good and actually does know his stuff, his first foray into making a flamenco guitar should err in that direction, at any rate. It’s not necessarily a problem and a lot of things could be adjusted after the fact. The guitar will live and age. If it’s under built it’ll be OK for a while, then quite likely it won’t. And if he nails it, it’s going to be more due to BS luck than anything else, but then you win. It’s highly unlikely that he will nail it, though, and if he’s worth his salt he’ll tell you this, too, so maybe consider that when you discuss the project with him. If he glosses over the pitfalls, then I’d be concerned.
I would also weigh the costs of a negative impact to your relationship with him if it doesn’t work out. Nothing is free, and nothing will be for either of you if you go down this path. As the song says, how much does a dollar cost?
So, just go in with your eyes open and be willing to shrug it off it it doesn’t pan out. Otherwise, spending some time trying out some shelf guitars and saving yourself a K or so isn’t such a terrible thing.
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date May 13 2021 12:09:36
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estebanana
Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
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RE: Luthier's first flamenco guitar ... (in reply to Ricardo)
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quote:
quote:
The guitar maker is really good at steel string guitars and studied the flamenco carefully they would probably be able to make something good.
I honestly feel that many luthiers believe that flamenco guitars are easy to build compared to any other guitar, but as a player I really see the opposite. The requirements of flamenco guitar in terms of feel looks and sound seems very constrained by comparison and I am thinking that has to be more challenging. Just talking about the bridge and action set up. I once visited a luthier wh
This is really true,
Classical guitarists may have particular qualities they are looking for in how a guitar feels and plays, but it's usually based on criteria like the repertoire they are working with on that guitar, and issues like how the guitar projects...lots of things qualify a classical guitar for a player, whether they are an expert or a beginner.
I got a valuable lesson from Marc Teicholz, a fantastic guitarist who teaches at the San Francisco Conservatory. I brought him a guitar to play, it was a cypress Santos style. He played it and said it was strong on some areas and weak in others, but he gave context to why in his situation of recommending guitars to students that these criteria were important. He continued and gave me a lesson in why modern classical guitarists choose the instruments they do. He explained why some repertoire lead guitarists to choose guitars that emphasized chords more like a piano, because it was more suited to working with harmony, and why other guitars with a more romantic ( spanish*) sound were better at other tasks. He contrasted a Jim Redgate with another makers Maple Cedar, more Torres style guitar. The gulf between a Redgate from the mid 2000's and Maple Cedar Torres model is W-i-d-e.
The lesson being, classical guitars can come in many varieties of sound envelope, feel under the hands, size, weight, and finally how it emphasizes the differences between romantic character and 'Bosendorfer piano' harmonic precision. All these qualities can be useful and sought after in what's labeled as a 'classical guitar'. For that reason, classical makers can find a personal sweet spot and stick with it even though that may not be what's hot in the moment. I've been involved in guitars long enough, since seeing Segovia as a teenager, to witness cycles of guitar development and reconsideration. Long scales used to be considered normal, then it trended back to shorter, scales, then even shorter, then it trended back to longer...the market loves to eat up new gimmicks and then reset to a more 'old style' normal.
Flamenco guitars by contrast are different, or the classical guitars are different. Flamenco guitars have evolved in the minds of consumers into a narrower field. And from the point of function they are narrower. Classical guitars and Flamenco guitars used to be more or less the same thing, but the market was manipulated to create a binary Spanish guitar world and the flamenco guitar got left to develop by itself. But the development remained in the service mainly of how the instrument feels under the hands. And the basic design hasn't needed to be developed very much past Torres brace design on order to be effective.
Flamenco makers build for the way the guitar feels ( this is my opinion) more over how the guitar will sound. The way the guitar responds happens because you build it lighter in the right places, or work for a certain geometry and maybe even consider how the golpe sound will work, ( do people still golpe anymore?) and in trying to get to these qualities of playability; will the guitar rip alzapua without effort by the player? - ( read with pauses to contemplate at commas) The attributes the flamenco guitar maker aims for, direct the design to automatically take form as a good flamenco guitar, because the maker is working for how it feels, not how it sounds. If a guitar rips alzapua and doesn't feel like it's going to bottom out or is not too tough on the hands, then it is in the sweet spot. Flamenco guitars built into that sweet zone almost always sound correct and flamenco.
If the guitar feels right when doing rasgueado, it will sound right. That's the thing that classical or steel makers have to come to terms with if they want to make successful flamenco ( Fleming lol) guitars. The guitar making manuals that emphasize how to use technology and sound testing to make a guitar are very good, I own a few of them and have learned a great deal from them, but almost useless when it comes to getting a feeling for how a rasgueado should feel and recover when you drag your thumb and fingers through the strings. If the flamenco guitar rips alzapua, has the right recovery feel, it will work, the sound is a personal thing, you may or may not like it. I worry like 80% on how the guitar will feel, and know that the sound will be there if it feels correct. If the player does not like the sound, well ok, but they should be able to play in a cuadro with the guitar and not get torn up. In a cuadro a good flamenco guitar will keep you from getting tired, it will be a fun satisfying experience, the guitar should not get in your way. Making a guitar that stays out of your way in a cuadro is trickier than it sounds, most classicals would be in your way.
Can beginner players and builders discern all these things yet? Probably not. Let them learn by doing and not just making safe purchases of cheap guitars. Buy a Yamaha flamenco for $500.00, it will last until you can actually play. or have the local guy make you a guitar. It's just a different on ramp to the same highway.
The thing I'd say to someone making a flamenco guitar that has already made steel string guitars, study the bridge of the flamenco guitar and make a few of them. If you can make three or four flamenco bridges and understand that first, I'd say go ahead. If you can't pull off a couple of bridges that any good flamenco maker would say "Yeah, that bridge looks right." Don't attempt a flamenco guitar until you figure that part out. Otherwise you'll build all the other stuff without understanding what it's supposed to connect to. That kind of sounds condescending, but it's the truth.
_____________________________
https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date May 18 2021 3:35:29
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ernandez R
Posts: 737
Joined: Mar. 25 2019
From: Alaska USA
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RE: Luthier's first flamenco guitar ... (in reply to estebanana)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: estebanana
quote:
quote:
The guitar maker is really good at steel string guitars and studied the flamenco carefully they would probably be able to make something good.
I honestly feel that many luthiers believe that flamenco guitars are easy to build compared to any other guitar, but as a player I really see the opposite. The requirements of flamenco guitar in terms of feel looks and sound seems very constrained by comparison and I am thinking that has to be more challenging. Just talking about the bridge and action set up. I once visited a luthier wh
This is really true,
Classical guitarists may have particular qualities they are looking for in how a guitar feels and plays, but it's usually based on criteria like the repertoire they are working with on that guitar, and issues like how the guitar projects...lots of things qualify a classical guitar for a player, whether they are an expert or a beginner.
I got a valuable lesson from Marc Teicholz, a fantastic guitarist who teaches at the San Francisco Conservatory. I brought him a guitar to play, it was a cypress Santos style. He played it and said it was strong on some areas and weak in others, but he gave context to why in his situation of recommending guitars to students that these criteria were important. He continued and gave me a lesson in why modern classical guitarists choose the instruments they do. He explained why some repertoire lead guitarists to choose guitars that emphasized chords more like a piano, because it was more suited to working with harmony, and why other guitars with a more romantic ( spanish*) sound were better at other tasks. He contrasted a Jim Redgate with another makers Maple Cedar, more Torres style guitar. The gulf between a Redgate from the mid 2000's and Maple Cedar Torres model is W-i-d-e.
The lesson being, classical guitars can come in many varieties of sound envelope, feel under the hands, size, weight, and finally how it emphasizes the differences between romantic character and 'Bosendorfer piano' harmonic precision. All these qualities can be useful and sought after in what's labeled as a 'classical guitar'. For that reason, classical makers can find a personal sweet spot and stick with it even though that may not be what's hot in the moment. I've been involved in guitars long enough, since seeing Segovia as a teenager, to witness cycles of guitar development and reconsideration. Long scales used to be considered normal, then it trended back to shorter, scales, then even shorter, then it trended back to longer...the market loves to eat up new gimmicks and then reset to a more 'old style' normal.
Flamenco guitars by contrast are different, or the classical guitars are different. Flamenco guitars have evolved in the minds of consumers into a narrower field. And from the point of function they are narrower. Classical guitars and Flamenco guitars used to be more or less the same thing, but the market was manipulated to create a binary Spanish guitar world and the flamenco guitar got left to develop by itself. But the development remained in the service mainly of how the instrument feels under the hands. And the basic design hasn't needed to be developed very much past Torres brace design on order to be effective.
Flamenco makers build for the way the guitar feels ( this is my opinion) more over how the guitar will sound. The way the guitar responds happens because you build it lighter in the right places, or work for a certain geometry and maybe even consider how the golpe sound will work, ( do people still golpe anymore?) and in trying to get to these qualities of playability; will the guitar rip alzapua without effort by the player? - ( read with pauses to contemplate at commas) The attributes the flamenco guitar maker aims for, direct the design to automatically take form as a good flamenco guitar, because the maker is working for how it feels, not how it sounds. If a guitar rips alzapua and doesn't feel like it's going to bottom out or is not too tough on the hands, then it is in the sweet spot. Flamenco guitars built into that sweet zone almost always sound correct and flamenco.
If the guitar feels right when doing rasgueado, it will sound right. That's the thing that classical or steel makers have to come to terms with if they want to make successful flamenco ( Fleming lol) guitars. The guitar making manuals that emphasize how to use technology and sound testing to make a guitar are very good, I own a few of them and have learned a great deal from them, but almost useless when it comes to getting a feeling for how a rasgueado should feel and recover when you drag your thumb and fingers through the strings. If the flamenco guitar rips alzapua, has the right recovery feel, it will work, the sound is a personal thing, you may or may not like it. I worry like 80% on how the guitar will feel, and know that the sound will be there if it feels correct. If the player does not like the sound, well ok, but they should be able to play in a cuadro with the guitar and not get torn up. In a cuadro a good flamenco guitar will keep you from getting tired, it will be a fun satisfying experience, the guitar should not get in your way. Making a guitar that stays out of your way in a cuadro is trickier than it sounds, most classicals would be in your way.
Can beginner players and builders discern all these things yet? Probably not. Let them learn by doing and not just making safe purchases of cheap guitars. Buy a Yamaha flamenco for $500.00, it will last until you can actually play. or have the local guy make you a guitar. It's just a different on ramp to the same highway.
The thing I'd say to someone making a flamenco guitar that has already made steel string guitars, study the bridge of the flamenco guitar and make a few of them. If you can make three or four flamenco bridges and understand that first, I'd say go ahead. If you can't pull off a couple of bridges that any good flamenco maker would say "Yeah, that bridge looks right." Don't attempt a flamenco guitar until you figure that part out. Otherwise you'll build all the other stuff without understanding what it's supposed to connect to. That kind of sounds condescending, but it's the truth.
Thanx Stephan for taking the time to write this out. I'll need to keep this handy on my flamenco guitar odyssey.
HR
_____________________________
I prefer my flamenco guitar spicy,
doesn't have to be fast,
should have some meat on the bones,
can be raw or well done,
as long as it doesn't sound like it's turning green on an elevator floor.
www.instagram.com/threeriversguitars
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Date May 18 2021 8:08:43
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guitars he might agree. 
