Building a 2A on spec

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Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

Building a 2A on spec

Hola flamenkitos,
I decided to make a 2A guitar that will be available for sale when finished, and document some of it here. For those curious, there is no difference in sound, voicing, setup, or finish between my 2As and my Primeras. The only difference is that I save time by simplifying the aesthetics on the 2A. I don't use my own handmade rosettes on this model but I personally have no qualms about using the beautiful Russian-made ones that are available.
So, let's dive into some photos. The top and back are braced, and today I bent the sides and began assembly on the solera.

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

_____________________________

Andy Culpepper, luthier
http://www.andyculpepper.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 10 2015 23:42:58

Echi

Posts: 1132
Joined: Jan. 11 2013

RE: Building a 2A on spec (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

Very nice and clean work. Did you take some inspiration from Gerundino? I have a '82 Gerundino braced quite likely yours. Is the plantilla on your own design?
Thanks

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 11 2015 12:43:10

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: Building a 2A on spec (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

Thanks Echi! Gerundino was definitely one I was looking at when developing this bracing, along with 60s-70s Conde. I had good results initially and I've been fine-tuning it for 50 guitars or so. I personally think it's important to drill down into one design and really figure out how to shape the sound I want, which leads to good, consistent results.
The plantilla is pretty much what I've been working with since my first guitar, which was a copy of a John Park guitar. I have made a couple small adjustments to the shape though.

_____________________________

Andy Culpepper, luthier
http://www.andyculpepper.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 11 2015 22:47:27

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: Building a 2A on spec (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

Another set of pictures: shaping the rim of the sides, and getting ready to glue the back on!

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

_____________________________

Andy Culpepper, luthier
http://www.andyculpepper.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 12 2015 23:54:38

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: Building a 2A on spec (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

Bindings/purflings are done. Forgot the camera that day. The bindings, along the the headplate and bridge and local Black Walnut. Going to make a great flamenco bridge.
Here are a few photos of the gluing the fingerboard and carving the neck. Making Spanish Cedar shavings with a sharp plane or spokeshave is extremely therapeutic, I recommend it to everybody!
The fingerboard is glued with high quality epoxy to prevent warping or cupping of the neck/fingerboard due to the introduction of moisture from other glues.

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

_____________________________

Andy Culpepper, luthier
http://www.andyculpepper.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 19 2015 23:49:41

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: Building a 2A on spec (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

Very aesthetical, like always.

Why do you expect great from walnut for bridge? Tried before, or certain property?
(I know that you are very meticulous with the bridge, down to the gramme. And think that you / luthiers used to stick to only a very few kinds of hardwood for that part (right?), while apparently more woods seem to actually suit if only processed individually (right?)

Ruphus

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 20 2015 15:25:15

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: Building a 2A on spec (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

Thanks Ruphus,
I have used one before, IMO it's just the right density for a flamenco bridge. Similar to Padauk. Traditional Rosewood is fine too, and Rosewood is very pretty. I just prefer something slightly lighter.

_____________________________

Andy Culpepper, luthier
http://www.andyculpepper.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 21 2015 22:33:50

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: Building a 2A on spec (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

Gluing said bridge!
Frets are also done and I managed to get the guitar strung up today in the white. I'll make a video tomorrow. The guitar is brutally percussive but has a sweet, melodic side as well. Resonance is right where I want it (I can usually nail it now days by tapping and flexing, and scraping/sanding more if needed) so I don't need to do any more adjustments to the top or back plates, just detail work and on to finishing!

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

_____________________________

Andy Culpepper, luthier
http://www.andyculpepper.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 24 2015 23:03:01

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: Building a 2A on spec (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

So here is a video of the guitar playing without finish. After finishing, the sound gets a little more focused and refined but I can tell this one is going to be a beast.
Just a quick iPhone video:

_____________________________

Andy Culpepper, luthier
http://www.andyculpepper.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 28 2015 0:18:42

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: Building a 2A on spec (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

Here are a couple shots of the guitar just prior to the first body coat of shellac, and one after the first session.

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

_____________________________

Andy Culpepper, luthier
http://www.andyculpepper.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 28 2015 0:22:56

Wayne Brown

Posts: 124
Joined: Oct. 22 2012
From: Huntersville, North Carolina, USA

RE: Building a 2A on spec (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

Wow! A beast it is! Someone is going to have a very responsive guitar that looks great too!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 28 2015 21:52:03

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: Building a 2A on spec (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

Thanks Wayne!

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Andy Culpepper, luthier
http://www.andyculpepper.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 29 2015 14:57:34

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: Building a 2A on spec (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

I was not checking this video, but with the lame feedback of the foro (in numbers I mean) ...

Sounds like very fast responding and nicely hollow. However, the low notes come across a bit soft. I suspect the recording. You seem to have chosen another setup regarding position / direction in the room compared to the last recording, and it shows.

I like the visual aesthetics and friendly colors of the photos. Specially the last the one.

Ruphus

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 29 2015 17:55:50

tijeretamiel

Posts: 441
Joined: Jan. 6 2012

RE: Building a 2A on spec (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

Andy, did you use Rubners for this guitar? What were they like in usage?

Nice clean work for the guitar though, good work chap.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 29 2015 18:37:27

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: Building a 2A on spec (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

Thanks, Ruphus. As I mentioned it was just a quick iPhone video so you're right, the sound quality isn't the best. I will go back to the other setup for any finished guitar videos.

tijereta, I'm a fan of pretty much all the Rubners. I also like Gotohs in the under $100 price range and they're probably a little lighter. Schallers are the lightest of all but but unfortunately the quality isn't there.

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Andy Culpepper, luthier
http://www.andyculpepper.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 29 2015 22:53:40

tijeretamiel

Posts: 441
Joined: Jan. 6 2012

RE: Building a 2A on spec (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Culpepper

tijereta, I'm a fan of pretty much all the Rubners. I also like Gotohs in the under $100 price range and they're probably a little lighter. Schallers are the lightest of all but but unfortunately the quality isn't there.

Thanks Andy,

Great info about the Rubners. I've been thinking of ordering some as they seem well priced and they do custom spacings for not a huge amount more.
I'm in agreement about the Schallers, I had a guitar with Schaller Hauser tuners which were awful, heard good things about their new range though.
Used a lot of Gotohs but never ones for nylon strings, but they have all been great.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 30 2015 10:24:56

constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1677
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Building a 2A on spec (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

Really nice work, Andy. I love seeing nice guitars in progress and in the white.

Someone contacted me recently wanting me to repair a crack in the soundboard of a steel-string guitar. This guy likes to talk and he was telling me about all the guitars in his collection. He kept throwing factory model numbers at me, which were totally meaningless to me, since I am not very interested in factory steel-string guitars or model numbers.

I understand that flamenco guitars are often given the model numbers 2A and 1A. What would a 2B or 1B be? If we only need the 1 and the 2, why do we use the A?

_____________________________

Ethan Deutsch
www.edluthier.com
www.facebook.com/ethandeutschguitars
www.youtube.com/marioamayaflamenco
I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 1 2015 0:59:56

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: Building a 2A on spec (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

This labelling has been widely overtaken from the Ramirez production.
True, that without "B" or "C" or whatever following classifications the "A" makes no sense.

I think what J.Ramirez intended to mean was that there was no B-production, hence all guitars released to be first class, thus "A". The 2A merely indicating less in optical features, but no shorts in quality.

Ruphus

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 1 2015 12:54:27

constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1677
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Building a 2A on spec (in reply to Ruphus)

I think you clarified this perfectly, Ruphus. Thanks.

_____________________________

Ethan Deutsch
www.edluthier.com
www.facebook.com/ethandeutschguitars
www.youtube.com/marioamayaflamenco
I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 1 2015 13:15:53

Echi

Posts: 1132
Joined: Jan. 11 2013

RE: Building a 2A on spec (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

I presume that 1a is just the Spanish way to mean primerA as 1st means firST etc.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 1 2015 14:31:41

constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1677
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Building a 2A on spec (in reply to Echi)

Echi--
You're right! I used to know that. 1a means primera; 2a means segunda. Just like 1st and 2nd mean first and second. My Spanish has gotten rusty.

_____________________________

Ethan Deutsch
www.edluthier.com
www.facebook.com/ethandeutschguitars
www.youtube.com/marioamayaflamenco
I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 1 2015 15:10:24

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: Building a 2A on spec (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

Isn´t that provided already / a no-brainer?
The question being what first and second category relate to.

Ruphus

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 1 2015 15:28:53

Echi

Posts: 1132
Joined: Jan. 11 2013

RE: Building a 2A on spec (in reply to Ruphus)

quote:

Isn´t that provided already / a no-brainer?
The question being what first and second category relate to.

In my understanding Ethan put a question re: the way to number the different models.
Speaking of Ramirez, the 1st and 2nd models used to be made in Madrid while the studio models were outsourced.
Ramirez used to give each appointed employee (official) a set of wood ready to be assembled (the top being already thicknesses to 2.7 mm). These guys were hard workers as they were paid according to the guitars delivered (one of them told they could make up to 4 guitars a month, ready to be passed to a specialized varnisher).
Obviously some guitars could end up being under the standards requested by Ramirez to be labeled as 1st model (for whatever reason) and as a consequence were sold as 2nd model.
In other words a 2nd class model is granted to have been made in the same shop by the same makers and with the same care but sold at less as not complying the standards to be 1st class.
A studio Ramirez (but the same could be said for the studio models of Contreras, Bernabé etc) used to be made elsewhere by different people.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 1 2015 15:57:05

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: Building a 2A on spec (in reply to Echi)

The whereabouts have already been discussed to detail. (I think to recall even here on the foro, but more so on the AG forum.)
People tend to think that 2As were to be of lesser quality than 1As. However, the classification was only related to J. Ramirez´ evaluation of wood cosmetics which he considered important.
From there also only few 1As in those periods where they could get no batches of desired grain.

Further, under his supervision wood used to be cut and used with preset dimensions. It is the first time that I hear from somewhere that his workers were allowed to alter diameters. To my knowledge Ramirez production is associated with default procedure.
Which again to geeks in guitar history makes initials on the neck base of no relevance.

Ruphus

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 1 2015 20:53:33

Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3431
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Building a 2A on spec (in reply to Echi)

In the late 1960s and in the 1970s I would occasionally buy two or three guitars from Ramirez at his shop in Madrid, to re-sell in the USA. His policy was to keep six 1a or 2a instruments on hand, so clients could choose among them. He liked to tell about well known professionals rejecting one instrument immediately, only to have another pro come along and praise it as the best of the bunch.

I would choose my instruments according to which I liked best, but also would try to find a little variety. In many cases I liked a 2a better, for both sound and playability, but I bought only 1a's, since they were much easier to sell, and commanded a considerably higher price in the USA than the 2a's did.

Ramirez said the distinction was only due to the quality of the wood for the back and sides, since he had a steady supply of good cedar for soundboards. I always assumed he meant the cosmetics of the back and side woods, but since then I have met luthiers who judge them on other qualities as well. It never occurred to me to ask Ramirez whether he had other criteria.

For a while Ramirez had a U.S. distributor in Chicago. This distributor started pasting "Segovia Model" stickers over the hand written 1a or 2a designation on the label. This failed to cover up the color of the label's border, which also made the distinction, but the Chicago dealer charged the same for both. This in particular annoyed Ramirez, among other issues between them, and Ramirez ended his relationship with the distributor.

RNJ

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 1 2015 23:23:23

Echi

Posts: 1132
Joined: Jan. 11 2013

RE: Building a 2A on spec (in reply to Ruphus)

I'm

quote:

Further, under his supervision wood used to be cut and used with preset dimensions. It is the first time that I hear from somewhere that his workers were allowed to alter diameters. To my knowledge Ramirez production is associated with default procedure.
Which again to geeks in guitar history makes initials on the neck base of no relevance.

One of the mentioned oficial (a famous one) told exactly what I referred above: They could choose among a bunch of pre-thicknessed sets (2.7 mm was the "grueso" of the top) and they were allowed to bring them to the proper thickness (with some tolerance).
Each oficial had his own bench and tools and had to hand over the guitar ready to be varnished then.
The reason why Ramirez stopped the stamp stuff is because some of his oficiales (Contreras and Bernabe) started a successful business after they left, taking advantage their names were associated with some good Ramirez guitars.
It's not a mistery that some oficiales were more successful than others (Antonio Martinez, Paulino Bernabe, Manuel Caceres for instance) as their guitars were often more requested as better than the average: in lutherie the hand of the maker makes a good difference.
Re the 2a model: my infos are that Ramirez just considered the whole instrument and had to lower it's class in case he couldn't sell it as 1st class for whatever reason (sound, aesthetic, small defects).

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 1 2015 23:57:26

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: Building a 2A on spec (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

Whoever you talked to, your info is unique and contradicts what people say who are specialized on guitar history. Which is not to say that Richard´s post above wasn´t a reliable source already who has been visiting many shops and tried countless of finest makes.

In the meantime the commonplace that individual luthiery matters is precisely why I -also on the foro- used to ridicule the fixed Ramirez method of using pre-cut parts independently from woods acoustic properties.

One of our very specialized members is C. Vega who from what I remember would confirm about the Ramirez routine. But I havn´t seen him posting for a long time, hoping him to be doing alright.

Ruphus

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 2 2015 2:07:18

Echi

Posts: 1132
Joined: Jan. 11 2013

RE: Building a 2A on spec (in reply to Ruphus)

Hi, I won't add anything else to this matter as this is not the right place to do it.
I can assure you it's not a speculation but first hand information.
Anyway, I don't care too much to argue about the " guitar history" or what you usually find in Internet.

Andy, this seems to become an amazing guitar and your work is definitely top notch.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 2 2015 11:26:48

Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3431
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Building a 2A on spec (in reply to Ruphus)

I visited the Ramirez shop several times while Jose III was the proprietor. I also visited Manzanero and Contreras, Sr. a number of times. Both Manzanero and Contreras emphasized how intimately Ramirez was involved in the building process, and how demanding he was about his standards. But i never discussed with any of the three what latitude the individual makers had in thicknessing the tops.

According to my limited experience trying a few dozen instruments, there was about as much variation within the production of any individual maker as there was among all the makers.

Some dealers have told me that the Antonio Martinez blanca I have is worth more due to his initials, but other dealers and a couple of very experienced luthiers who are also dealers have agreed with my experience cited above.

RNJ

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 2 2015 17:39:00

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: Building a 2A on spec (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

I appreciate everyone's comments here.

I developed my 2a guitar because I wanted to have a more affordable option for the kind of player I used to be: a dedicated student or aspiring professional who wants an excellent handcrafted puro blanca without the frills.

2a seemed to be the best label for what I was trying to do, as "student guitar" didn't seem to quite do it justice.

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Andy Culpepper, luthier
http://www.andyculpepper.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 2 2015 19:31:42