Building a 2A on spec (Full Version)

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Andy Culpepper -> Building a 2A on spec (Nov. 10 2015 23:42:58)

Hola flamenkitos,
I decided to make a 2A guitar that will be available for sale when finished, and document some of it here. For those curious, there is no difference in sound, voicing, setup, or finish between my 2As and my Primeras. The only difference is that I save time by simplifying the aesthetics on the 2A. I don't use my own handmade rosettes on this model but I personally have no qualms about using the beautiful Russian-made ones that are available.
So, let's dive into some photos. The top and back are braced, and today I bent the sides and began assembly on the solera.







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Echi -> RE: Building a 2A on spec (Nov. 11 2015 12:43:10)

Very nice and clean work. Did you take some inspiration from Gerundino? I have a '82 Gerundino braced quite likely yours. Is the plantilla on your own design?
Thanks



Andy Culpepper -> RE: Building a 2A on spec (Nov. 11 2015 22:47:27)

Thanks Echi! Gerundino was definitely one I was looking at when developing this bracing, along with 60s-70s Conde. I had good results initially and I've been fine-tuning it for 50 guitars or so. I personally think it's important to drill down into one design and really figure out how to shape the sound I want, which leads to good, consistent results.
The plantilla is pretty much what I've been working with since my first guitar, which was a copy of a John Park guitar. I have made a couple small adjustments to the shape though.



Andy Culpepper -> RE: Building a 2A on spec (Nov. 12 2015 23:54:38)

Another set of pictures: shaping the rim of the sides, and getting ready to glue the back on!





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Andy Culpepper -> RE: Building a 2A on spec (Nov. 19 2015 23:49:41)

Bindings/purflings are done. Forgot the camera that day. The bindings, along the the headplate and bridge and local Black Walnut. Going to make a great flamenco bridge.
Here are a few photos of the gluing the fingerboard and carving the neck. Making Spanish Cedar shavings with a sharp plane or spokeshave is extremely therapeutic, I recommend it to everybody!
The fingerboard is glued with high quality epoxy to prevent warping or cupping of the neck/fingerboard due to the introduction of moisture from other glues.





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Ruphus -> RE: Building a 2A on spec (Nov. 20 2015 15:25:15)

Very aesthetical, like always.

Why do you expect great from walnut for bridge? Tried before, or certain property?
(I know that you are very meticulous with the bridge, down to the gramme. And think that you / luthiers used to stick to only a very few kinds of hardwood for that part (right?), while apparently more woods seem to actually suit if only processed individually (right?)

Ruphus



Andy Culpepper -> RE: Building a 2A on spec (Nov. 21 2015 22:33:50)

Thanks Ruphus,
I have used one before, IMO it's just the right density for a flamenco bridge. Similar to Padauk. Traditional Rosewood is fine too, and Rosewood is very pretty. I just prefer something slightly lighter.



Andy Culpepper -> RE: Building a 2A on spec (Nov. 24 2015 23:03:01)

Gluing said bridge!
Frets are also done and I managed to get the guitar strung up today in the white. I'll make a video tomorrow. The guitar is brutally percussive but has a sweet, melodic side as well. Resonance is right where I want it (I can usually nail it now days by tapping and flexing, and scraping/sanding more if needed) so I don't need to do any more adjustments to the top or back plates, just detail work and on to finishing!



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Andy Culpepper -> RE: Building a 2A on spec (Nov. 28 2015 0:18:42)

So here is a video of the guitar playing without finish. After finishing, the sound gets a little more focused and refined but I can tell this one is going to be a beast.
Just a quick iPhone video:



Andy Culpepper -> RE: Building a 2A on spec (Nov. 28 2015 0:22:56)

Here are a couple shots of the guitar just prior to the first body coat of shellac, and one after the first session.




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Wayne Brown -> RE: Building a 2A on spec (Nov. 28 2015 21:52:03)

Wow! A beast it is! Someone is going to have a very responsive guitar that looks great too!



Andy Culpepper -> RE: Building a 2A on spec (Nov. 29 2015 14:57:34)

Thanks Wayne!



Ruphus -> RE: Building a 2A on spec (Nov. 29 2015 17:55:50)

I was not checking this video, but with the lame feedback of the foro (in numbers I mean) ...

Sounds like very fast responding and nicely hollow. However, the low notes come across a bit soft. I suspect the recording. You seem to have chosen another setup regarding position / direction in the room compared to the last recording, and it shows.

I like the visual aesthetics and friendly colors of the photos. Specially the last the one.

Ruphus



tijeretamiel -> RE: Building a 2A on spec (Nov. 29 2015 18:37:27)

Andy, did you use Rubners for this guitar? What were they like in usage?

Nice clean work for the guitar though, good work chap.



Andy Culpepper -> RE: Building a 2A on spec (Nov. 29 2015 22:53:40)

Thanks, Ruphus. As I mentioned it was just a quick iPhone video so you're right, the sound quality isn't the best. I will go back to the other setup for any finished guitar videos.

tijereta, I'm a fan of pretty much all the Rubners. I also like Gotohs in the under $100 price range and they're probably a little lighter. Schallers are the lightest of all but but unfortunately the quality isn't there.



tijeretamiel -> RE: Building a 2A on spec (Nov. 30 2015 10:24:56)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Culpepper

tijereta, I'm a fan of pretty much all the Rubners. I also like Gotohs in the under $100 price range and they're probably a little lighter. Schallers are the lightest of all but but unfortunately the quality isn't there.


Thanks Andy,

Great info about the Rubners. I've been thinking of ordering some as they seem well priced and they do custom spacings for not a huge amount more.
I'm in agreement about the Schallers, I had a guitar with Schaller Hauser tuners which were awful, heard good things about their new range though.
Used a lot of Gotohs but never ones for nylon strings, but they have all been great.



constructordeguitarras -> RE: Building a 2A on spec (Dec. 1 2015 0:59:56)

Really nice work, Andy. I love seeing nice guitars in progress and in the white.

Someone contacted me recently wanting me to repair a crack in the soundboard of a steel-string guitar. This guy likes to talk and he was telling me about all the guitars in his collection. He kept throwing factory model numbers at me, which were totally meaningless to me, since I am not very interested in factory steel-string guitars or model numbers.

I understand that flamenco guitars are often given the model numbers 2A and 1A. What would a 2B or 1B be? If we only need the 1 and the 2, why do we use the A?



Ruphus -> RE: Building a 2A on spec (Dec. 1 2015 12:54:27)

This labelling has been widely overtaken from the Ramirez production.
True, that without "B" or "C" or whatever following classifications the "A" makes no sense.

I think what J.Ramirez intended to mean was that there was no B-production, hence all guitars released to be first class, thus "A". The 2A merely indicating less in optical features, but no shorts in quality.

Ruphus



constructordeguitarras -> RE: Building a 2A on spec (Dec. 1 2015 13:15:53)

I think you clarified this perfectly, Ruphus. Thanks.



Echi -> RE: Building a 2A on spec (Dec. 1 2015 14:31:41)

I presume that 1a is just the Spanish way to mean primerA as 1st means firST etc.



constructordeguitarras -> RE: Building a 2A on spec (Dec. 1 2015 15:10:24)

Echi--
You're right! I used to know that. 1a means primera; 2a means segunda. Just like 1st and 2nd mean first and second. My Spanish has gotten rusty.



Ruphus -> RE: Building a 2A on spec (Dec. 1 2015 15:28:53)

Isn´t that provided already / a no-brainer?
The question being what first and second category relate to.

Ruphus



Echi -> RE: Building a 2A on spec (Dec. 1 2015 15:57:05)

quote:

Isn´t that provided already / a no-brainer?
The question being what first and second category relate to.


In my understanding Ethan put a question re: the way to number the different models.
Speaking of Ramirez, the 1st and 2nd models used to be made in Madrid while the studio models were outsourced.
Ramirez used to give each appointed employee (official) a set of wood ready to be assembled (the top being already thicknesses to 2.7 mm). These guys were hard workers as they were paid according to the guitars delivered (one of them told they could make up to 4 guitars a month, ready to be passed to a specialized varnisher).
Obviously some guitars could end up being under the standards requested by Ramirez to be labeled as 1st model (for whatever reason) and as a consequence were sold as 2nd model.
In other words a 2nd class model is granted to have been made in the same shop by the same makers and with the same care but sold at less as not complying the standards to be 1st class.
A studio Ramirez (but the same could be said for the studio models of Contreras, Bernabé etc) used to be made elsewhere by different people.



Ruphus -> RE: Building a 2A on spec (Dec. 1 2015 20:53:33)

The whereabouts have already been discussed to detail. (I think to recall even here on the foro, but more so on the AG forum.)
People tend to think that 2As were to be of lesser quality than 1As. However, the classification was only related to J. Ramirez´ evaluation of wood cosmetics which he considered important.
From there also only few 1As in those periods where they could get no batches of desired grain.

Further, under his supervision wood used to be cut and used with preset dimensions. It is the first time that I hear from somewhere that his workers were allowed to alter diameters. To my knowledge Ramirez production is associated with default procedure.
Which again to geeks in guitar history makes initials on the neck base of no relevance.

Ruphus



Richard Jernigan -> RE: Building a 2A on spec (Dec. 1 2015 23:23:23)

In the late 1960s and in the 1970s I would occasionally buy two or three guitars from Ramirez at his shop in Madrid, to re-sell in the USA. His policy was to keep six 1a or 2a instruments on hand, so clients could choose among them. He liked to tell about well known professionals rejecting one instrument immediately, only to have another pro come along and praise it as the best of the bunch.

I would choose my instruments according to which I liked best, but also would try to find a little variety. In many cases I liked a 2a better, for both sound and playability, but I bought only 1a's, since they were much easier to sell, and commanded a considerably higher price in the USA than the 2a's did.

Ramirez said the distinction was only due to the quality of the wood for the back and sides, since he had a steady supply of good cedar for soundboards. I always assumed he meant the cosmetics of the back and side woods, but since then I have met luthiers who judge them on other qualities as well. It never occurred to me to ask Ramirez whether he had other criteria.

For a while Ramirez had a U.S. distributor in Chicago. This distributor started pasting "Segovia Model" stickers over the hand written 1a or 2a designation on the label. This failed to cover up the color of the label's border, which also made the distinction, but the Chicago dealer charged the same for both. This in particular annoyed Ramirez, among other issues between them, and Ramirez ended his relationship with the distributor.

RNJ



Echi -> RE: Building a 2A on spec (Dec. 1 2015 23:57:26)

I'm
quote:


Further, under his supervision wood used to be cut and used with preset dimensions. It is the first time that I hear from somewhere that his workers were allowed to alter diameters. To my knowledge Ramirez production is associated with default procedure.
Which again to geeks in guitar history makes initials on the neck base of no relevance.

One of the mentioned oficial (a famous one) told exactly what I referred above: They could choose among a bunch of pre-thicknessed sets (2.7 mm was the "grueso" of the top) and they were allowed to bring them to the proper thickness (with some tolerance).
Each oficial had his own bench and tools and had to hand over the guitar ready to be varnished then.
The reason why Ramirez stopped the stamp stuff is because some of his oficiales (Contreras and Bernabe) started a successful business after they left, taking advantage their names were associated with some good Ramirez guitars.
It's not a mistery that some oficiales were more successful than others (Antonio Martinez, Paulino Bernabe, Manuel Caceres for instance) as their guitars were often more requested as better than the average: in lutherie the hand of the maker makes a good difference.
Re the 2a model: my infos are that Ramirez just considered the whole instrument and had to lower it's class in case he couldn't sell it as 1st class for whatever reason (sound, aesthetic, small defects).



Ruphus -> RE: Building a 2A on spec (Dec. 2 2015 2:07:18)

Whoever you talked to, your info is unique and contradicts what people say who are specialized on guitar history. Which is not to say that Richard´s post above wasn´t a reliable source already who has been visiting many shops and tried countless of finest makes.

In the meantime the commonplace that individual luthiery matters is precisely why I -also on the foro- used to ridicule the fixed Ramirez method of using pre-cut parts independently from woods acoustic properties.

One of our very specialized members is C. Vega who from what I remember would confirm about the Ramirez routine. But I havn´t seen him posting for a long time, hoping him to be doing alright.

Ruphus



Echi -> RE: Building a 2A on spec (Dec. 2 2015 11:26:48)

Hi, I won't add anything else to this matter as this is not the right place to do it.
I can assure you it's not a speculation but first hand information.
Anyway, I don't care too much to argue about the " guitar history" or what you usually find in Internet.

Andy, this seems to become an amazing guitar and your work is definitely top notch.



Richard Jernigan -> RE: Building a 2A on spec (Dec. 2 2015 17:39:00)

I visited the Ramirez shop several times while Jose III was the proprietor. I also visited Manzanero and Contreras, Sr. a number of times. Both Manzanero and Contreras emphasized how intimately Ramirez was involved in the building process, and how demanding he was about his standards. But i never discussed with any of the three what latitude the individual makers had in thicknessing the tops.

According to my limited experience trying a few dozen instruments, there was about as much variation within the production of any individual maker as there was among all the makers.

Some dealers have told me that the Antonio Martinez blanca I have is worth more due to his initials, but other dealers and a couple of very experienced luthiers who are also dealers have agreed with my experience cited above.

RNJ



Andy Culpepper -> RE: Building a 2A on spec (Dec. 2 2015 19:31:42)

I appreciate everyone's comments here.

I developed my 2a guitar because I wanted to have a more affordable option for the kind of player I used to be: a dedicated student or aspiring professional who wants an excellent handcrafted puro blanca without the frills.

2a seemed to be the best label for what I was trying to do, as "student guitar" didn't seem to quite do it justice.



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