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A fun "discussion" about the gitano role of flamenco
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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 RE: A fun "discussion" abo... (in reply to gmburns)
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In my opinion, although the Gitanos no doubt have contributed elements to flamenco, they overplay their hand by a wide margin when they appropriate the genre and claim it as their own. Brook Zern's observations are always a good read. I liked his summing up at the end, where he admits the Payos have pretty much won the argument, but then writes:
"Just gimme five: the three deep song forms (the soleá, the siguiriyas and the tonás group that includes the martinete, debla and carcelera); plus two more — the tangos; and the bulerías. A measly ten percent — plus the folky Gypsy wedding song called the alboreá and maybe the zambra that they dance and sing in Granada. In round numbers, 55 to 7 for a clear payo [non-Gypsy] victory. So we’ll call it even, and everyone goes home happy."
A nice way to end it, but I would disagree with calling zambra Gitano. Zambra, more than any other palo, is a direct contribution of the Moors that the Gitanos appropriated, but it certainly is not their own. Without the strong Moorish influence, zambra would not exist.
Nevertheless, another interesting piece by Brook Zern.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Oct. 13 2015 4:03:56
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: A fun "discussion" abo... (in reply to Ricardo)
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quote:
What gitanos (generally around the world) tend to do is adapt ideas quickly and morph it to their own style which can quick become a genre of it's own....To point out what payos have done in a genre, in hopes to belittle the monumental contribution of the gitano, is simply racist in my view.
What I meant in my comment above about Gitanos overplaying their hand when they appropriate flamenco and claim it as their own is that it seems to me they attempt to establish the myth that they created it. They've created their own "foundation myth" that does not acknowledge the actual roots of the genre. I'm looking beyond the question of whether today (or even yesterday) payos or Gitanos have contributed more to the genre as we know it. It seems to me that Gitanos do not want to acknowledge that the very foundation and roots of flamenco lie in the influence of the Moors, the Sephardic Jews, the Andalucians (including the Gitanos), and others we may not even know about.
I would agree that to point out what payos have done in the genre "in the hope of belittling the monumental contribution of the Gitano" (key phrase in quotes) might be considered racist. But it is equally racist for Gitanos to lay claim to having created the genre without acknowledging the monumental contribution of the Moors, the Sephardic Jews, and other Andalucians at the time those influences were coalescing into what eventually became flamenco.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Oct. 14 2015 21:48:54
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Ricardo
Posts: 14820
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: A fun "discussion" abo... (in reply to BarkellWH)
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quote:
I would agree that to point out what payos have done in the genre "in the hope of belittling the monumental contribution of the Gitano" (key phrase in quotes) might be considered racist. But it is equally racist for Gitanos to lay claim to having created the genre without acknowledging the monumental contribution of the Moors, the Sephardic Jews, and other Andalucians at the time those influences were coalescing into what eventually became flamenco.
But in my experience they don't do this...they quite openly discuss the outside INFLUENCES on cante, especially ARABIC....some gitanos feel their style of music is directly coming from arabic origins...and yet others acknowledge the majority of great guitar players are payos...but when it comes to CREATION of the cante song forms, what flamenco finally IS, they are mostly attributed to gypsies.
Conversely the ones that DOWNPLAY this fact, more often spanish non gypsies, love to point out the outside influence, the non gypsy master singers, etc etc, in a way that just comes off ugly to me. It's just my outsider perspective on it.
Ricardo
_____________________________
CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
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Date Oct. 15 2015 10:50:36
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: A fun "discussion" abo... (in reply to Ruphus)
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quote:
Flamenco has nothing largely comparable in Asia or in Europe. It is a very vital product of Gypsies in Spain.
I agree, Ruphus, and I am on board with Ricardo's observations, too, regarding the vital role flamenco has played in Gitano life and the contribution of Gitanos to the genre, particularly in cante. The reason, however, that there is nothing comparable in Asia or Europe is because of demographics and geography. Asia and Europe had nothing comparable to Al Andalus, with its mix of Moorish (Arabic), Sephardic Jewish, and other Andalucian (including Gitano) influences.
my impression, however, is there is a fairly widespread belief that flamenco developed as part of the historical cultural patrimony of the Gitanos alone, i.e., that it has been present in some form from their earliest roots, like Athena springing from the forehead of Zeus. Perhaps that is something the Andalucian Chamber of Commerce and Tourist Agency would like people to believe. I would never attempt to take flamenco away from the Gitano cultural patrimony, but I also would like to see acknowledgement that that patrimony is not theirs alone, that it comes from many sources and reflects the many cultures of Al Andalus.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Oct. 15 2015 20:28:21
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Ricardo
Posts: 14820
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: A fun "discussion" abo... (in reply to BarkellWH)
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I tried to draw parallels to some other gypsy music styles but some folks don't seem to be getting the point. Ok, let me try this.
jazz evolved out of blues and dixie land stuff. mostly african american peoples. There we have a "peppering" of non black contributors to the genre early on. Fair enough? The gypsy in france, inspired by this music, took the style and standards (forms if you will) during "swing" era, and developed what is now clearly it's own genre, called by most in the know and themselves "GYPSY HOT JAZZ"...ok? Still with me? To be clear this is entire genre with it't own rules for rhythm, improvisation, a set of standards, etc, totally separate from mainstream or straight ahead jazz or blues. It's called "limehouse blues" but in the hands of the gypsy maestro from france, it's it's own thing. And again we might find a "peppering" of non gypsies contributing important things to this specific style. But it is a GYPSY music, despite it's "influences" or even origins. Not understand this is why certain record companies failed to come to terms with a guy like JIMMY ROSENBERG...thinking "oh what a great JAZZ player lets give HIM a big contract"...without undertanding what GYPSY MUSIC really is about. Big fail.
Ok, so now we have andalucia analogy. Sure it's a big mix of things. Sevillanas (blues), seguidilla (dixie land), rumba or fandango (swing) etc, basically a universal folk music. some gypsies created new things with seguidilla, call it siguiriya now, fandango , jaleos, jotas, etc...it became it's own genre, separate from your average folk music...now it's called FLAMENCO. It's totally gypsie, and sure that is more than "peppering" of non gypsies because, unique to andalucia is the INTERMIXING of gitanos and non gitanos...both due to work and literal inter racial marriage being allowed. This is not as common with gypsies in Romania, France, or even just in North of Spain.
So to be clear as to my point...American Jazz is to Andalucian Folk music in general as Gypsy Hot Jazz is to FLAMENCO specifically. Only because we have so many non gitanos interpreting flamenco do we need extra adjectives such as "cante gitano" or
rumba gitana", and "payo" takes on a negative meaning. Just like "white" can sound negative in certain rhythm and blues contexts. A black american jazz guy can point at a french gypsy and say "hey, you stole our music and changed it..." any andaluz non gitano folk musician can do the same to a spanish gypsy but needs to also admit the final result is what the rest of the world calls,conclusively, FLAMENCO.
_____________________________
CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
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Date Oct. 16 2015 18:07:50
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Sr. Martins
Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011
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RE: A fun "discussion" abo... (in reply to Ricardo)
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quote:
It's totally gypsie, and sure that is more than "peppering" of non gypsies because, unique to andalucia is the INTERMIXING of gitanos and non gitanos...both due to work and literal inter racial marriage being allowed. This is not as common with gypsies in Romania, France, or even just in North of Spain.
When you specify "Gitanos from Andalucia", it means "a group of people from a certain place".
If you forget about the place and try to take ownership of something as "it belongs to race X", not only it is obviously racist but also fails at depicting the truth because it entails a WHOLE race that is spread across the world.
For the reasons mentioned, I think it's perfectly acceptable to say that Flamenco comes from Spain or, more specifically, Andalucia but... Raza Gitana as a whole... no. Not only it sounds bad but it's also giving credit to people who never heard of Bulerias or Solea.
Portugal is right next to Spain and if "our" gitanos represent Flamenco, then Flamenco sucks REALLY bad.
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Date Oct. 16 2015 19:17:09
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