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RE: A fun "discussion" about the gitano role of flamenco
RE: A fun "discussion" abo... (in reply to estebanana)
I don´t get your point. If there is something you don´t agree with I didn´t understand what it is.
With saying "body shapes generally tend to" I wasn´t meaning that there can´t be exceptions. Just that in general in the cold you want as little body surface in relation to volume as possible, so that less of body warmth may get lost. And the other way around, slimmer bodies present more relative surface to cope with heat. -Which often is accompanied by items like larger ears of species and similar "radiators" with lots of blood vessels to emit heat.
And it quite looks as if, except for the ears -hehe-, northern people in comparison to those of warmer regions verify the general condition in respect to climate, no? (-Inuit not counting. They haven´t been out there long enough to largely adapt.)
William Shelton´s theory has been disproved and his categories today are only employed within body builder circles. They are not scientifical. The terms for basic body shape that I used however are.
I wasn´t aware that there already exist approaches to such a physical / musical hypothesis. Interesting to hear of it.
Need to be scarce with internet throughput, but will check if I can see the music clip.
RE: A fun "discussion" abo... (in reply to Ruphus)
quote:
I don´t get your point. If there is something you don´t agree with I didn´t understand what it is.
With saying "body shapes generally tend to" I wasn´t meaning that there can´t be exceptions. Just that in general in the cold you want as little body surface in relation to volume as possible, so that less of body warmth may get lost. And the other way around, slimmer bodies present more relative surface to cope with heat. -Which often is accompanied by items like larger ears of species and similar "radiators" with lots of blood vessels to emit heat.
And it quite looks as if, except for the ears -hehe-, northern people in comparison to those of warmer regions verify the general condition in respect to climate, no? (-Inuit not counting. They haven´t been out there long enough to largely adapt.)
William Shelton´s theory has been disproved and his categories today are only employed within body builder circles. They are not scientifical. The terms for basic body shape that I used however are.
I wasn´t aware that there already exist approaches to such a physical / musical hypothesis. Interesting to hear of it.
Need to be scarce with internet throughput, but will check if I can see the music clip.
Thanks!
Ruphus
Long ago in a place far, far away I studied anthropology. I did not take a degree, but I was in pretty deep. A turning point in my life was when my anthropology professor Dr. Gamper, suggested he take me to see Donald Johansen in Berkeley with the intent of me working for Johansen at the Institute of Human Origins. Instead I headed to Micronesia on a family errand and worked there on a modest archeological dig with an alcoholic professor who was an abusive ****head. In retrospect I should have chosen Johansen, but such is life.
I know a little bit about anthropology, but usually don't say too much about it. At the time and place I was in with the enthusiasm and knowledge I had at that time I could have worked with Clark Howell or Johansen. Clark Howell is the the one who worked at Torralba and Ambrona in Spain on the kill sites that you might be thinking of. Instead I opted for a trip to the Western Pacific, which I suppose was world expanding, but ended my academic foray into anthropology. When someone offers you personal connection Johansen to Clark you best take it. Nobodies in the field are nobodies.
I'm not confusing pygmic with pyknic. I'm saying that physiology is not totally determined by topography and climate, although climate is a big factor. It's more complex than we can get into for several reasons. But I understand what you are getting at, there is component to body type development in isolated gene groups that is determined by climactic adaptation, but that is not the whole story. There is much more to it. I gave the example of the Twa or the Baka in Cameroon as a counter example of why climactic adaptation is not a complete way of looking at body type. Just as Nordic peoples tend to contest a colder climate equals shorter stockier body typology.
So, I'm not confused. But better to drop it because I don't like to talk too much about anthropology.
And on a final note about that, calling the Baka or the Twa "pygmies" is a kind of dubious these days. The video regrettably labels them as pygmies, but today anthropologists or anyone else simply call them by the name of the people Twa or which ever tribe they are.
In terms of compas I find them right on, and a nice soniquete to boot.
RE: A fun "discussion" abo... (in reply to estebanana)
When cought with pants down, you start a sack race. hehehe Man, erring is human. It is constant with everyone / there is no getting rid of it.
Ok, not getting into it, but I don´t see the sense in objecting climate effect on body type. It is fundamental and physically very obvious as to why.
Further, all the prehistoric subjects, including history of earth and even of the universe are increasingly updating. (Usually showing that we have been underestimating the depth of development in chronological terms.)
Just yesterday it was reported that now first life on earth appears to have occured already over 4 billion years ago. While I recall former estimation according to which there had been no life possible in the earth´s first 2 billion of years, with that number progressively shrinking.
So, findings are changing all the time, and it mustn´t surprise to see subjects changing.
RE: A fun "discussion" abo... (in reply to estebanana)
This thread reminded me of something Pepe Martinez said, who by the way was a fantastic player and seems to have been a really cool dude sitting there in his morning robe smoking a puro during the interview that's in La Guitarra Flamenca de Pepe Martinez and can be seen here.
When asked "do you see any difference in the playing between a gitano and someone who is not?"
His response was.
"No yo no veo ninguna differencia, la guitarra...y te voy a hablar por voca de Manolo De Huelva, el decia. Aqui hay dos cosas ni gitano ni gadjo ni nada ni nada, aqui hay toca bien o no toca bien!"
RE: A fun "discussion" abo... (in reply to estebanana)
What a beautiful thumb. Obviously a climactic adaptation to Iberian guitar playing.
Ruphus in the score of climactic adaptation, yes new things are being learned all the time. Twenty five yeas ago in anthropology much more emphasis was put on pure climactic adaptation, but as you point out new things are coming up all the time. Newer ways of looking at body adapatuon in anthropology are not purely about climate anymore as other factors like selection and cultural factors that we now know have a big impact on body development. Cultural behavior and adaptation is very important not to over look. That is a major difference between human body adaptation and animal body development. So you can't track two as parallels, animal vs. human body typing, because human culture figures large, and is very complex, in human body adaptation.
That is why getting into it is tedious, human body development need to factor in things like cultural behaviors, diet and clothing to name a few. So a straight across comparison to animals is not accurate. Although general terms you bring up about pure climate adaptation are a most certainly a starting point.
RE: A fun "discussion" abo... (in reply to Morante)
Ok so whats your point? So because he played other palos not only toce jondo and didn't drink like Agujetas he's less of a authority on flamenco? Anyways he was citing Manolo if you didn't get that.
I am sure you could change the "hay toca bien o no toca bien!" with hay "canta bien o no canta bien!" since the voice is a instrument to.
Anyways i just wanted to share the anekdot and take part in the discussion nothing else.
On topic, music is born by reciprocity, so this discussion IMO is like the discussion on "Who's the best guitar player" which quickly becomes a circular argument.
RE: A fun "discussion" abo... (in reply to estebanana)
Haven't been following this thread for a while but now the first thing I've noticed when I opened it was... iberian thumbs, the climatic influence on them and how they sound.
I'll open this thread later as I am not too sure about the context of what I just read
RE: A fun "discussion" abo... (in reply to estebanana)
Oh boy, I'm late to the party, but what an interesting discussion.
I think one thing that maybe needs to be distinguished is that I think people aren't so concerned that the Catholic payos aren't getting enough credit for flamenco, but maybe that the Moorish and Sephardic Jewish contributions aren't being acknowledged as much as they should.
We hear the Catholic folk traditions of the Andalucians in the sevillanas and fandangos, they sound essentially different than the more "phrygian" palos. There have been intermixing of i style in the guitar, but the cante portions themselves sound essentially different.
There is also the Spanish romantic tradition which now is present all over "romantic Spanish guitar" and "rumba flamenca". This is an example of a famous pop song, but this type of melody I believe is an ancient Mediterranean one
However, its in the soleas, siguiriyas, tangos, bulerias etc that the song structures sound non-European. So the question is did the gypsies bring the basic elements of those sound with them or did they find them pre-existing in Andalusia due to the history of Al-Andalus? And also did the flamenco dance come with them (and the unique hand gesturing) or did they find it there already...and being a people with little recourse to income adopt those arts as a way to entertain and survive?
RE: A fun "discussion" abo... (in reply to Leñador)
"What about palo to palo, I feel like Gitanos were much more involved in some palos over others. Like Granainas and Malagueñas don't feel super Gitano to me. As opposed to other palos. I think there could a bit of a divide between Gitano palos and payo palos".
RE: A fun "discussion" abo... (in reply to BarkellWH)
quote:
ORIGINAL: BarkellWH
What I meant in my comment above about Gitanos overplaying their hand when they appropriate flamenco and claim it as their own is that it seems to me they attempt to establish the myth that they created it. They've created their own "foundation myth" that does not acknowledge the actual roots of the genre. I'm looking beyond the question of whether today (or even yesterday) payos or Gitanos have contributed more to the genre as we know it. It seems to me that Gitanos do not want to acknowledge that the very foundation and roots of flamenco lie in the influence of the Moors, the Sephardic Jews, the Andalucians (including the Gitanos), and others we may not even know about.
Am I wrong in saying that the Jews and Moors were in the same boat as the Romani and essentially the three of them together share a similar history, and therefore share much of the music together? In other words, doesn't "gitano" also kind of represent the oppressed populations of Andalucia, and that's where "flamenco" came from?
That's always been my impression, that there's no escaping the three races being together for a common cause.
RE: A fun "discussion" abo... (in reply to gerundino63)
quote:
ORIGINAL: gerundino63
Could we all agree that there are many influences (jewish, moorish, Byzantine, Mozarabic)in flamenco, but without the "cement" from the Gitanos the flamenco as an artform would not have existed?
RE: A fun "discussion" abo... (in reply to gmburns)
quote:
Am I wrong in saying that the Jews and Moors were in the same boat as the Romani and essentially the three of them together share a similar history, and therefore share much of the music together? In other words, doesn't "gitano" also kind of represent the oppressed populations of Andalucia, and that's where "flamenco" came from?
That's always been my impression, that there's no escaping the three races being together for a common cause.
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RE: A fun "discussion" abo... (in reply to gmburns)
quote:
Am I wrong in saying that the Jews and Moors were in the same boat as the Romani and essentially the three of them together share a similar history, and therefore share much of the music together? In other words, doesn't "gitano" also kind of represent the oppressed populations of Andalucia, and that's where "flamenco" came from? That's always been my impression, that there's no escaping the three races being together for a common cause.
Actually, they don't share a similar history as "oppressed" people. The Moors crossed over from North Africa in 711 and conquered most of Visigothic Spain, and they were pushing further into Europe until checked at the Battle of Tours by Charles Martel. The Moors were the rulers of Al Andalus, not oppressed subjects. And while the Sephardic Jews and Christians were accorded status as "dhimmi" or "People of the Book," they were still second class citizens of Al Andalus, as they had to pay a special tax, could not ride on horseback, could not carry a sword, and could not hold high office among other restrictions.
The Gitanos no doubt would have been lowest on the totem pole (as they were, and are, everywhere), even though those who were Christian would have been considered "dhimmi" as well. From the beginning of the Reconquista in the late 10th century until the fall of Granada in 1492, the Moorish rulers of Al Andalus were playing defense, but for centuries they ruled Al Andalus and were not oppressed subjects at all. In fact, it was the Sephardic Jews, Christians, and no doubt Gitanos who were restricted in their activities under the ruling Moorish Caliphate of Cordoba.
I suppose one could call the Moors "oppressed" after the final success of the Reconquista with the fall of Granada in 1492, but that was a case of the Spanish Christian kingdoms retaking what was theirs in the first place, that had been taken from them by the Moors in the 8th century. It was a case of the originally-conquered Christian kingdoms defeating their conquerers and reclaiming what they considered to be their patrimony.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
RE: A fun "discussion" abo... (in reply to Sr. Martins)
I guess what I'm suggesting is that "gitano" is that, and not just the Romani population, therefore any influence from the Moors and Jews fits into the "it is gitano" category. At least n Andalucia anyway.
Even today the word "gypsy" (and it's various Iberian friends) doesn't necessarily mean "Egyptian", from whence they're all derived, so I'm not sure "gitano" needs to represent "romani" exclusively in today's world.
RE: A fun "discussion" abo... (in reply to BarkellWH)
quote:
ORIGINAL: BarkellWH
Actually, they don't share a similar history as "oppressed" people. The Moors crossed over from North Africa in 711 and conquered most of Visigothic Spain, and they were pushing further into Europe until checked at the Battle of Tours by Charles Martel. The Moors were the rulers of Al Andalus, not oppressed subjects. And while the Sephardic Jews and Christians were accorded status as "dhimmi" or "People of the Book," they were still second class citizens of Al Andalus, as they had to pay a special tax, could not ride on horseback, could not carry a sword, and could not hold high office among other restrictions. The Gitanos would have been lowest on the totem pole, even though those who were Christian would have been considered "dhimmi" as well. From the beginning of the Reconquista in the late 10th century until the fall of Granada in 1492, the Moorish rulers of Al Andalus were playing defense, but for centuries they ruled Al Andalus and were not oppressed subjects at all. In fact, it was the Sephardic Jews, Christians, and no doubt Gitanos who were restricted in their activities under the ruling Moorish Caliphate of Cordoba.
Bill
well, actually, the Moors were pretty oppressed after they lost control, and yes, a good number of them stuck around. They all kind of helped each other out because the Catholics were FAR worse than the Moors ever were. In fact, the Moors were pretty good to their minorities in general.
edit: and I'm pretty sure what we know as "flamenco" today didn't really exist when the Moors ruled. It's really a post 1750 at the earliest sort of thing (and mostly an 1800s and later format).
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RE: A fun "discussion" abo... (in reply to gmburns)
quote:
the Catholics were FAR worse than the Moors ever were. In fact, the Moors were pretty good to their minorities in general.
Yes, under the original Caliphate of Cordoba. And I acknowledged that in my comment, although as Dhimmi, the Sephardic Jews and Christians were still second class citizens. Nevertheless, the long rule of the Moors in Al Andalus was not always as tolerant as Cordoba. I suggest you read about the Almoravid and Almohad dynasties that ruled Al Andalus in the 11th and 12th centuries respectively. They (particularly the Almohads) were every bit as intolerant as the Catholics would later be after the Reconquista.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
RE: A fun "discussion" abo... (in reply to BarkellWH)
quote:
ORIGINAL: BarkellWH
Yes, under the original Caliphate of Cordoba. And I acknowledged that in my comment, although as Dhimmi, the Sephardic Jews and Christians were still second class citizens. Nevertheless, the long rule of the Moors in Al Andalus was not always as tolerant as Cordoba. I suggest you read about the Almoravid and Almohad dynasties that ruled Al Andalus in the 11th and 12th centuries respectively. They (particularly the Almohads) were every bit as intolerant as the Catholics would later be after the Reconquista.
Bill
Well, OK, but I think the point remains that what is flamenco today really didn't come from that period. There may be elements of it, but there are more similarities to the three: moors, jews, romani than there is to just the romani. Palmas could have come from North Africa, the Peteneras could derive from Jewish origins, the Zambra and its Moorish connections, etc. But what we know today as flamenco really began in the late 1700s after a long period of the jews, moors, and romani having lived together out of protection (a common enemy makes us friends) for so many years and then being allowed to perform when rules were relaxed.
RE: A fun "discussion" abo... (in reply to estebanana)
With the exception that Sephardim were often held in high regard as political consultants, doctors and teachers and did hold minor administrative posts. Still being second class citizens the educated elite had privilege and title.
Also the the Troubadour poets left a residual body of sung poetry that has not gotten enough research. The popular songs of the Spanish renaissance are also a blend of Troubador poetry a some Italian influence. And Sephardic poetry had a long run in Moorish Spain. Many people dismiss these form in the basis of structure not fitting into Spanish language or flamenco 'rhyme schemes' but thematically there's a lot of meat. The themes of the old poems can be fragmented and the read a lot like the themes in letras.
But that is my personal reach. The Sephardic poets wrote deeply about Andalucia and the lands and sea. Why not ? Before and after he left Span Judah Halevi had an effect on poetry and verse Moorish Spain.
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From: Washington, DC
RE: A fun "discussion" abo... (in reply to gmburns)
quote:
but there are more similarities to the three: moors, jews, romani than there is to just the romani. Palmas could have come from North Africa, the Peteneras could derive from Jewish origins, the Zambra and its Moorish connections, etc....In any case, any book recommendations?
I could not agree more, Greg. That has been the whole point of my contribution to this thread. The contributions to flamenco have been much more than just that of the Gitanos, or Gypsies. That of the Moors and Sephardic Jews is unquestionably huge, even if the Gitanos have made the genre their own.
Regarding book recommendations, for anyone interested in reading about the Islamic period in Spain, I think the best work I have come across is "The Ornament of the World," by Maria Rosa Menocal. This book chronicles the tolerant culture of Islamic Spain, particularly Al Andalus, where Christians, Jews, and Muslims lived together in comparative harmony (Emphasize "comparative," it was not total.). Al Andalus's tolerant culture set it apart from the intolerance one found in both Christian Europe and the Muslim Arab World at the time. A great work of history and culture about a special time and place. I do think that Ms. Menocal white-washes some of the darker aspects of Muslim rule in Al-Andalus, particularly during the Almoravid and Almohad dynasties, but aside from that quibble, it is a very good read.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
RE: A fun "discussion" abo... (in reply to BarkellWH)
I think my point goes a step further though. I'm saying that what is essentially "gitano" in today's world is the combination of the moorish, jewish, and romani peoples. I think andaluz gitano doesn't equal romani. Andaluz gitano = jewish + moorish + romani cultures. So in other words, if your family is of spanish jewish descent from the 1600s then you're probably gitano, too, by default.
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RE: A fun "discussion" abo... (in reply to gmburns)
quote:
So in other words, if your family is of spanish jewish descent from the 1600s then you're probably gitano, too, by default.
More than likely you are living in Istanbul or some other part of the former Ottoman Empire and speaking Ladino.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
RE: A fun "discussion" abo... (in reply to BarkellWH)
"More than likely you are living in Istanbul or some other parts of the former Ottoman Empire and speaking Ladino. "
If you had said Moorish I would agree, but a study just several years back found that 25% of Spaniards had detectable Sephardic ancestry . The big thing about that study is it showed the genetic contributions of the Sephardim was much larger than the Moors in present day Spain and probably the Romani as well.
My hunch is that the Sephardim are the silent influence that played a much larger role in Spanish culture than anyone realizes or talks about. They arrived five centuries before the Moors after being expelled from Israel by the Romans. They became the great intellectuals of dark age Spain and continued to have a great influence after the political domination of the Umyadds. They may have laid the basis of the middle eastern elements in Flamenco long before the Moors (who were essentially non-semitic Berber) arrived
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From: Washington, DC
RE: A fun "discussion" abo... (in reply to mark74)
quote:
If you had said Moorish I would agree, but a study just several years back found that 25% of Spaniards had detectable Sephardic ancestry . The big thing about that study is it showed the genetic contributions of the Sephardim was much larger than the Moors in present day Spain and probably the Romani as well.
That may be, and it is interesting to be sure. Nevertheless, large numbers of Sephardim left Spain and were welcomed in the Ottoman Empire. Today in Istanbul there is still a large Sephardim community that speaks their own brand of Spanish known as Ladino. Formerly, in other parts of the Ottoman Empire such as Salonica in Greece, they were a majority of the population until the Greeks gained independence and forced most of the Sephardic Jews out, making the city primarily Greek. I agree with you that the Sephardim probably played a much larger role in Spanish culture than is generally recognized, or that the Spanish today would care to admit.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
RE: A fun "discussion" abo... (in reply to mark74)
quote:
"More than likely you are living in Istanbul or some other parts of the former Ottoman Empire and speaking Ladino. "
If you had said Moorish I would agree, but a study just several years back found that 25% of Spaniards had detectable Sephardic ancestry . The big thing about that study is it showed the genetic contributions of the Sephardim was much larger than the Moors in present day Spain and probably the Romani as well.
My hunch is that the Sephardim are the silent influence that played a much larger role in Spanish culture than anyone realizes or talks about. They arrived five centuries before the Moors after being expelled from Israel by the Romans. They became the great intellectuals of dark age Spain and continued to have a great influence after the political domination of the Umyadds. They may have laid the basis of the middle eastern elements in Flamenco long before the Moors (who were essentially non-semitic Berber) arrived
I agree.
There still exists as Bill mentions a Ladino population in Turkey with the language in tact, but many, many more Sephardim stayed in Spain and converted. They also went to England, where the language was lost and also to Minorca.
RE: A fun "discussion" abo... (in reply to BarkellWH)
quote:
the Sephardim probably played a much larger role in Spanish culture than is generally recognized, or that the Spanish today would care to admit.
I read a PDL interview a few years ago, around the time I think he lived in Toledo, where he said something along the lines of previously it was thought that the Moorish influence was most important in flamenco, but that the Jewish influence was really important.
RE: A fun "discussion" abo... (in reply to gmburns)
quote:
I'm saying that what is essentially "gitano" in today's world is the combination of the moorish, jewish, and romani peoples.
I read somewhere that when the moors were expelled after the reconquest the numbers of gitanos mysteriously suddenly increased, and it was thought that many moors avoided expulsion by adopting the cultural identity of gypsies.
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