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RE: A fun "discussion" about the gitano role of flamenco
RE: A fun "discussion" abo... (in reply to gmburns)
Just for the record, I think it is mostly you who talks of "race". Gypsies are no race. Since the Human Genome Project everyone should have noticed that there exists no race among humans. We have cultures and ethnicities.
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Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
RE: A fun "discussion" abo... (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
I tried to draw parallels to some other gypsy music styles but some folks don't seem to be getting the point. Ok, let me try this.
Ricardo, since your quote cited above was in reply to my post, I assume you are referring to me. Let me be clear about my point, summed up, in part, by the quote from my comment repeated below.
"my impression, however, is there is a fairly widespread belief that flamenco developed as part of the historical cultural patrimony of the Gitanos alone, i.e., that it has been present in some form from their earliest roots, like Athena springing from the forehead of Zeus. Perhaps that is something the Andalucian Chamber of Commerce and Tourist Agency would like people to believe."
That is what I was challenging. I do not see that that contradicts what you are saying. I don't think your and my observations are mutually exclusive; rather, in my opinion they complement each other.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
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From: The Netherlands
RE: A fun "discussion" abo... (in reply to Ruphus)
Could we all agree that there are many influences (jewish, moorish, Byzantine, Mozarabic)in flamenco, but without the "cement" from the Gitanos the flamenco as an artform would not have existed?
RE: A fun "discussion" abo... (in reply to Ruphus)
What about palo to palo, I feel like Gitanos were much more involved in some palos over others. Like Granainas and Malagueñas don't feel super Gitano to me. As opposed to other palos. I think there could a bit of a divide between Gitano palos and payo palos.
RE: A fun "discussion" abo... (in reply to Leñador)
quote:
What about palo to palo, I feel like Gitanos were much more involved in some palos over others. Like Granainas and Malagueñas don't feel super Gitano to me. As opposed to other palos. I think there could a bit of a divide between Gitano palos and payo palos.
Quite right: caracoles, garrotin, malagueñas, verdiales, ida y vuelta etc. Even Alegrías and the cantiñas are doubtful.
But el cante gitano por tangos is very different, as are seguiriyas, tonás and fandangos. Romances also seem a part of the culture assimilated and preserved by los gitanos
RE: A fun "discussion" abo... (in reply to Leñador)
quote:
What about palo to palo, I feel like Gitanos were much more involved in some palos over others.
That's pretty much how the Brook Zern article (link in first post above) concludes:
"Who created flamenco? I think it’s indisputable that among the fifty or sixty distinct forms that constitute flamenco, there are very different geneses. I happen to think (and most might agree on both sides) that the vast majority are essentially Andalusian (i.e. non-Gypsy for our purpose here) — including the sprawling fandango family, the major-key alegrias-cantiñas family, the half-dozen Latin-American-influenced “cantes de ida y vuelta“, and most of the miscellaneous styles like the farruca, garrotín, petenera…
Just gimme five: the three deep song forms (the soleá, the siguiriyas and the tonás group that includes the martinete, debla and carcelera); plus two more — the tangos; and the bulerías. A measly ten percent — plus the folky Gypsy wedding song called the alboreá and maybe the zambra that they dance and sing in Granada. In round numbers, 55 to 7 for a clear payo [non-Gypsy] victory. So we’ll call it even, and everyone goes home happy."
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Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
RE: A fun "discussion" abo... (in reply to mark indigo)
quote:
Just gimme five: the three deep song forms (the soleá, the siguiriyas and the tonás group that includes the martinete, debla and carcelera); plus two more — the tangos; and the bulerías. A measly ten percent — plus the folky Gypsy wedding song called the alboreá and maybe the zambra that they dance and sing in Granada. In round numbers, 55 to 7 for a clear payo [non-Gypsy] victory. So we’ll call it even, and everyone goes home happy."
After reading Brook Zern's piece (which I thought was very good, by the way), I cited the quote above in my first contribution to this thread and commented: "A nice way to end it, but I would disagree with calling zambra Gitano. Zambra, more than any other palo, is a direct contribution of the Moors that the Gitanos appropriated." Listening to Sabicas's "Danza Mora," one could easily be hearing something sounding very similar today in Morccco and other parts of North Africa and the Arab World.
Listen to Grisha perform Sabicas's version of "Danza Mora" in the "Modern vs. Traditional" thread running simultaneously here. That is not something unique to Gitanos; rather, it is living today throughout much of North Africa and the Arab World, and in the Andalucian context, it may have been more "folk," borrowed from the Moors, rather than specifically Gitano. More power to the Gitanos, however, for maintaining Zambra in their repertoire to the extent that they do. (Sadly, it seems to have fallen out of favor, as I have never heard it performed live on stage by Paco de Lucia, Paco Pena, or others running the circuit.)
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
RE: A fun "discussion" abo... (in reply to Ruphus)
quote:
Just for the record, I think it is mostly you who talks of "race". Gypsies are no race. Since the Human Genome Project everyone should have noticed that there exists no race among humans. We have cultures and ethnicities.
Ruphus
Yep were all from the same species: Homo sapiens sapiens
Race is a false taxonomic construct based on observations of regionally differing physiognomy. There is great of variation in human appearance, but no true sub species, yet. Some scientists think that during prolonged deep space explorations in which generations of humans will be born and have complete life cycles in space that it's possible a sub species could develop.
RE: A fun "discussion" abo... (in reply to BarkellWH)
quote:
ORIGINAL: BarkellWH More power to the Gitanos, however, for maintaining Zambra in their repertoire to the extent that they do. (Sadly, it seems to have fallen out of favor, as I have never heard it performed live on stage by Paco de Lucia, Paco Pena, or others running the circuit.)
RE: A fun "discussion" abo... (in reply to estebanana)
quote:
ORIGINAL: estebanana
Some scientists think that during prolonged deep space explorations in which generations of humans will be born and have complete life cycles in space that it's possible a sub species could develop.
Theoretically, it probably would. Provided individuals awake and reproducing over hundreds of thousands of years. For some reason however, I estimate it as unrealistic any such exploration to be carrying surviving humans for more than some decades at best.
Though the past millenia may have led us to believe to the contrary, menkind is firm part of a certain biosphere, needing interaction with fellow species in order to stay sufficiently empathetical and human/e. And when becoming inhumane on a lengthy space trip, hardly anyone should survive.
Not only from there, I think it essential to exclusively take into account the situation on the planet. Just sayin´, and sorry for OT.
RE: A fun "discussion" abo... (in reply to Ruphus)
OT again, but Jacques Cousteau had a vision in which he saw a surgically altered and eventually naturally bred sub species called Homo Aquaticus that would have gills and live underwater.
I think you may be into something about man and environment needing each other to evolve, but if we ever become a deep space fairing people I believe we will adapt and also bring parts of our natural known world with us. If we ever travel in deep space we will have to transport micro ecosystems with us and live as part of them. Plants, animals insects and humans. We'll need even more to develop interdependent relations with the ecosystems in our traveling small worlds.
RE: A fun "discussion" abo... (in reply to Ruphus)
Hey Stephen,
The twisted complexity of actual ecosystems and their hyper sensitivity therefore can´t be emulated. Like other comparable experiences, it will show that men can´t really play nature over a longer term in time. Further, unless some sort of space worm oder at least ion-drive travel were to come about, as an amateur at least I doubt any practcability in view of actual dimensions in space.
And hey, while I can see the romatic motivation that makes masses of fools sign in for a hypothetical travel to Mars, the reality will be trist. Very trist.
A crew could be mentally overcoming the years to there (though nothing yet / still within solar system), for the goal ahead. And they might even be staying enthusiast for a while after landing. All that leisure and freeing from earthly obligations ... so wonderful. But soon the kick would be turning into discovering to be lost. And dreadful homesickness will set in. Fist in intervals, then ever more constant, till desperation.
What absurd undertaking anyway, while there could be a beautiful blue planet like hardly any other. Fancying space exploration only enhances the brainlessness on mother earth, me thinks.
Posts: 3459
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
RE: A fun "discussion" abo... (in reply to Ruphus)
quote:
A crew could be mentally overcoming the years to there (though nothing yet / still within solar system), for the goal ahead. And they might even be staying enthusiast for a while after landing. All that leisure and freeing from earthly obligations ... so wonderful. But soon the kick would be turning into discovering to be lost. And dreadful homesickness will set in. Fist in intervals, then ever more constant, till desperation.
Nah, they will beat homesickness and desperation by continuing to have fun carrying into deep space the discussion about the Gitano role in flamenco.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
RE: A fun "discussion" abo... (in reply to Ruphus)
quote:
Hey Stephen,
The twisted complexity of actual ecosystems and their hyper sensitivity therefore can´t be emulated. Like other comparable experiences, it will show that men can´t really play nature over a longer term in time. Further, unless some sort of space worm oder at least ion-drive travel were to come about, as an amateur at least I doubt any practcability in view of actual dimensions in space.
And hey, while I can see the romatic motivation that makes masses of fools sign in for a hypothetical travel to Mars, the reality will be trist. Very trist.
A crew could be mentally overcoming the years to there (though nothing yet / still within solar system), for the goal ahead. And they might even be staying enthusiast for a while after landing. All that leisure and freeing from earthly obligations ... so wonderful. But soon the kick would be turning into discovering to be lost. And dreadful homesickness will set in. Fist in intervals, then ever more constant, till desperation.
What absurd undertaking anyway, while there could be a beautiful blue planet like hardly any other. Fancying space exploration only enhances the brainlessness on mother earth, me thinks.
Ruphus
Human travel to Mars and paying flamenco on Mars is going to be a reality in the next several generations.
I was not thinking of deep space as an exploration but as an ultimate exodus from from Earth. There are Cylons that want your precious bodily fluids and they will take over the Earth.
This is why I mentioned a subspecies of human that will be ocean adaptable. For the Earth diehards. As I see it humans have lost the connection to nature and being in a space ark with a a few hundred other species form earth over several hundred years we might learn new things. We might become telepathic or empathic with nature.
Posts: 3459
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
RE: A fun "discussion" abo... (in reply to estebanana)
quote]Human travel to Mars and playing flamenco on Mars is going to be a reality in the next several generations. I was not thinking of deep space as an exploration but as an ultimate exodus from Earth. [/quote]
Pod people! We must find a way to convert those individuals engaged in deep space travel and exploration into pod people. That will solve the problem Ruphus brought up about homesickness and desperation setting in. Remember that classic black and white movie from the '50s entitled, "Invasion of the Body Snatchers," where pods invaded the bodies of those living in a suburban neighborhood? After the conversion, they must still be capable of having discussions about the Gitano role in flamenco, but as pod people they could discuss it endlessly and never get bored.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
RE: A fun "discussion" abo... (in reply to Ruphus)
You guys are all wrong.
The surviving humans will end up on a planet in the closest periphery of the milky way, as protégés of robots that have consciousness sprung from artificial intelligence.
They will be cared for perfectly under a kind of hermetic cheese cover. All goods thinkable spilled out from nano printers, highest education thinkable, and unthinkable bombastic sex daily.
However, on another planet near by Palmers will be keeping humans as pets. Palmers being conscious mechanical beings springing from our technology as well. However, for matter of experiment having adapted mental patterns of former industrial humans.
And todays episode shows a scene in a street under the Palmers´ cheese cover. There´s a hot spot on the ground from a minimal damage in the covers sun protector a mile above. And a palmer has forced his human on a leash onto that spot, letting him jump and alter his feet in pain, looking like dancing. The human, a male of maybe 30 years, naked with a long beard that is decorated with a ribbon and a little bell attached to it, has cut earlobes while wearing a prong collar. He has the mouth wide open, but can´t yell, as his vocal chords have been removed to avoid noise.
There comes another Palmer passing, halts and talks to the human´s owner. "Excuse me, associate, why are you doing this; the poopie could be suffering?" The owner, bored rotating its micro loader in the air, replies: "Don´t worry, associate, my room mate is a poopie breeder and I have learned a lot about this species. They can´t feel pain, and I want to train him for the next tournament. I have won a couple prizes with him already. Right, Chubby?" He pulls the human out of the hot spot, gently smacks him with a gripper on the head and shoots the poopie back into the heat.
The passenger: "Associate, it appears as if it felt uncomfortable. Looking at how it is struggling ..." Owner: "Nah, that is movement to push his blood pressure. Just look at his opened mouth; that is a poopie´s expression of joy. He loves it!" He stops his swirling micro loader and zooms the view finder onto the passenger, scanning from top to bottom. "Are you empathetical, or what?"
The passenger slides a bit sideways: "No, I was just wondering. I never had a poopie, so ..." The owner slips out a smal container, takes a tiny ball of carbon and throws it into his loader: "I see. I was almost getting the impression of you being a pussy. ... We just fired 400 pussies last cycle. They are now at mining silicate in the southern mid canyon". Passenger, laughs: "Empathetical, oh no!" Laughs again and heads on: "Have a good day, associate; and good luck in the tournament!"
RE: A fun "discussion" abo... (in reply to Ruphus)
quote:
They will be cared for perfectly under a kind of hermetic cheese cover. All goods thinkable spilled out from nano printers, highest education thinkable, and unthinkable bombastic sex daily.
This hermetic cheese cover, is it sheeps milk cheese? Hopefully, or maybe a stinky bleu cheese?
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From: Washington DC
RE: A fun "discussion" abo... (in reply to mark indigo)
quote:
Just gimme five: the three deep song forms (the soleá, the siguiriyas and the tonás group that includes the martinete, debla and carcelera); plus two more — the tangos; and the bulerías. A measly ten percent — plus the folky Gypsy wedding song called the alboreá and maybe the zambra that they dance and sing in Granada. In round numbers, 55 to 7 for a clear payo [non-Gypsy] victory. So we’ll call it even, and everyone goes home happy."
_____________________________
I tried to address this in my first post....ida y vuelta and many other styles are like 3 or 4 melodies or less, each. Alegrias is just 3, cantinas 2 unless a special style. Solea is DOZENS of different melodies, same for siguiriyas, bulerias, fandangos, etc etc. Further, I would not describe any malaguena off shoots (levante, cante de la mina etc) as generally "payo" forms....again if you get into specifics you notice what is gitano creation vs payo. But in the end the math does not add up to the superficial thing being said there. It is way more complex and the distinction of what is created in a form vs classical and preserved reveals itself even MORE in the performance setting. Here you might discover what is more or less "gitano" in interpretation. If this was not important, a TV show like Rito would not have gone out of their way to make a show called : http://youtu.be/ADT4Fy-forg
and note the freudian slip with the opening title .... conveniently left out the word "NO" before "gitano" at the end!
Posts: 14833
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: A fun "discussion" abo... (in reply to Ruphus)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ruphus
Just for the record, I think it is mostly you who talks of "race". Gypsies are no race. Since the Human Genome Project everyone should have noticed that there exists no race among humans. We have cultures and ethnicities.
Ruphus
fair enough...but it could be more complex in this area. For example, I just saw a program on neanderthal....turns out there was a lot of interspecies mating going on...which we can easily trace via thousands of samples. The results showed, over whelmingly, that dark skinned african peoples (regardless of where they live now) seemed completely devoid of the neanderthal genes...same for many asian groups of people, but the white caucasion eauropean ancestors all had a significant high amount of neanderthal genes. They were able to localize the highest percentage of these people in tuscany region, and the working theory (as of that program date) is that the neanderthal was "breeded" out of existance by homo sapiens sapiens, not killed off. Perhaps the skin color thing is only incidental, but still we can see some "difference" between peoples genetically.
Here not the program but similar theme:
http://youtu.be/Tl-hI2IsCo0 As a human animal...I must admit the chick with highest percentage of neanderthal was certainly the most mateable...
On a darker theme... my romanian gypsy friends have noted in modern times, there is major problems with hereditary illness due to the "pure" breeding culture they have. It turns out more mixing would have physically strengthended family lines in the long run...very sad as interesting as the science is.
RE: A fun "discussion" abo... (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
But in the end the math does not add up to the superficial thing being said there.
I thought the point he was trying to make was that if you add it up in that way it superficially looks like it's payo, but that superficially small number of gitano cantes make up the vast weight of flamenco, both the most important, the most Jondo, and with the many variations as you say.
Posts: 3459
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
RE: A fun "discussion" abo... (in reply to mark indigo)
quote:
I thought the point he was trying to make was that if you add it up in that way it superficially looks like it's payo, but that superficially small number of gitano cantes make up the vast weight of flamenco, both the most important, the most Jondo, and with the many variations as you say.
I read Brook Zern's piece the same way. The numbers favor Payos, but the weight favors Gitanos. thus, he called it "even." (Whether or not it is "even" or one over the other, of course, is what the discussion is all about.)
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
Posts: 3459
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
RE: A fun "discussion" abo... (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
fair enough...but it could be more complex in this area. For example, I just saw a program on neanderthal....turns out there was a lot of interspecies mating going on...which we can easily trace via thousands of samples. The results showed, over whelmingly, that dark skinned african peoples (regardless of where they live now) seemed completely devoid of the neanderthal genes...same for many asian groups of people, but the white caucasion eauropean ancestors all had a significant high amount of neanderthal genes. They were able to localize the highest percentage of these people in tuscany region, and the working theory (as of that program date) is that the neanderthal was "breeded" out of existance by homo sapiens sapiens, not killed off. Perhaps the skin color thing is only incidental, but still we can see some "difference" between peoples genetically. On a darker theme... my romanian gypsy friends have noted in modern times, there is major problems with hereditary illness due to the "pure" breeding culture they have. It turns out more mixing would have physically strengthended family lines in the long run...very sad as interesting as the science is.
The past few years have seen a lot of interesting research in this area. The common ancestor of both Neanderthals and modern humans is thought to have first appeared in Africa about one million years ago. But a branch eventually evolved into the Neanderthals that first appeared in Europe and the Middle East 400,000 years ago. Meanwhile, another branch evolved into modern humans in Africa, migrating out about 60,000 years ago. The 400,000 and 60,000 year dates are based on the most recent fossil record. These can change as further discoveries narrow it down.
None of this is settled science, but the most recent research finds that for European, Middle Eastern, and East Asian populations, genes that provide the physical characteristics of skin and hair have a high incidence of Neanderthal DNA--as much as two percent in some cases — possibly lending toughness and insulation to weather the cold in those regions. Since the Neanderthals lived in such climates, and since (and here it gets interesting) no Neanderthal DNA has been found in modern African populations, the thinking is that there was interbreeding between the two when they met in Europe and the Middle East before the Neanderthals disappeared about 30,000 years ago.
This contradicts what we know of interbreeding between species, i.e., species may interbreed and produce offspring, but the offspring are sterile. (Male donkeys and female horses interbreeding and producing sterile mules is an example.) Nevertheless, This may be the exception. Stranger things have occurred.
Regarding your Romanian Gypsy friends and the hereditary "illnesses" they mentioned due to in-breeding, I have seen this first-hand, not among Gypsies, but among a small group living on an island near Utila, in the Bay Islands off the northern coast of Honduras. Most of the islanders are descendants of the English pirate Henry Morgan (who, among other things, laid siege to Cartagena), and they have in-bred for generations. I was fishing with some friends, and we hired one of the islanders and his boat. One could tell immediately that there was a mental deficiency among many of the islanders: slow to process, lengthy periods to think things through, etc.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
RE: A fun "discussion" abo... (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
On a darker theme... my romanian gypsy friends have noted in modern times, there is major problems with hereditary illness due to the "pure" breeding culture they have. It turns out more mixing would have physically strengthended family lines in the long run...very sad as interesting as the science is.
Ricardo
Do they suffer from hemophilia? That is a big problem with closed blood lines.
RE: A fun "discussion" abo... (in reply to BarkellWH)
quote:
This contradicts what we know of interbreeding between species, i.e., species may interbreed and produce offspring, but the offspring are sterile. (Male donkeys and female horses interbreeding and producing sterile mules is an example.) Nevertheless, This may be the exception. Stranger things have occurred.
A problem that has been put out in theory on the inter breeding of Neander lines and modern European humans was that during childbirth the mothers would suffer a high mortality rate if the father was neanderthal. In cases of first few generations of contact between the two groups the neanderthal babies would be larger at birth causing complications with childbirth due to hip size and how much the female was required to dilate during birth. Neander cranial capacity is larger...This could have led to neanderthal males being selected out of breeding. Meaning neanderthal females were chosen more in situations of inter breeding. It would probably have been easier for Neader females to be assimilated into a dominant population of humans. And given that Neader females are robust and had valuable skills sets they would be prized mates.
We don't know about cultural organization or these groups, but if like many early human groups, family ascendance or clan property and clan organization was matrilineal then it makes sense that the Neader population could be absorbed into the human population by females leaving Neander bands (or even these bands living side by side)
Another idea is just competition and diminishing ranges, the further development of tools and group hunting techniques.
RE: A fun "discussion" abo... (in reply to Ruphus)
Thank you for the bit about the hip issue / hence female input! Neandertal stuff is so thrilling.
With that anticipating quirk that yours truly tends to have >pats own shoulder <, I was deeming their inherited gems around us since a long time. Always thinking that their genes ought to be with us to a degree. Think to have mentioned even on the foro once, how there seems to be some affectionate boundary / special sympathy between red heads and me. Somehow, they often appear strong (though much to his frustration me always won over my long since passed away, heavier "Neandertal" muchacho Lutz, hehehe), yet good-natured and sans of sheming.
This maybe the single opportunity where you could call me "racist", but that is my empirical impression with red haired and often strongly built persons. Quite how anthropologists envision the Neandertaler. -
Days ago, I´ve just been pointing to someone basics that I think to see morphologically and from there mentally and again musically.
Basically:
Morphologically seen; three types. Pyknic, athletic, leptosome. With the Neandertaler rather occupying the first shape and the HS rather the middle and specially the last.
Solid body shapes generally tend to develop in colder regions, for benefit of smaller surface, and skinnier types vice versa. (Which being why to my taste sub-species of the cold tending to come out more beautiful. Think of Canadian wolves, grizzlies, ice bears, northern rabbit, Siberian Tiger etc. in comparison to their lighter, skinnier, big eared, long legged fellas around the equator who need preventing / venting off warmth).
In the same time nervous stability (patience / good nature) tend to be more with pyknic types (who also need to spare their energy and health in the cold), and vice versa, skinnies tending more towards the nervous, fidgety and finally more aggressive side of attitude.
And so little wonder, I´d say, that music of the north is being more laid back and of full notes, whilst southern hemisphere showcasting more of swirly concepts, fractioned notes and tremolo.
The guy I was telling this did not want to agree at all, for his personal southern background. Rejecting even the scientifical parts of my assumption (body shape /climate, body shape / neurological tendency).
Anyway, long live Neandertaler! ... errr
Ruphus
PS: Neandertaler is a hominid subspecies, not another species. From there not really surprising that they could interbreed and without infertile hybrids.
PS2: In view of a public case of liaised siblings (4 kids, one handicapped), a specialist -to everyone´s surprise, I guess; certainly to mine- stated that there were much less deformations occuring from incest than commonly believed.
RE: A fun "discussion" abo... (in reply to estebanana)
quote:
ORIGINAL: estebanana
Another idea is just competition and diminishing ranges, the further development of tools and group hunting techniques.
I suppose not so much tools, as theirs were just as developed, but with their choice of prey. They were largely after big game and red meat, whereas fishing was more nutrious. Only at the supposedly final stay of their remaining population at the Spansh coast must they have gone into fishing.
RE: A fun "discussion" abo... (in reply to Ruphus)
quote:
Thank you for the bit about the hip issue / hence female input! Neandertal stuff is so thrilling.
With that anticipating quirk that yours truly tends to have >pats own shoulder <, I was deeming their inherited gems around us since a long time. Always thinking that their genes ought to be with us to a degree. Think to have mentioned even on the foro once, how there seems to be some affectionate boundary / special sympathy between red heads and me. Somehow, they often appear strong (though much to his frustration me always won over my long since passed away, heavier "Neandertal" muchacho Lutz, hehehe), yet good-natured and sans of sheming.
This maybe the single opportunity where you could call me "racist", but that is my empirical impression with red haired and often strongly built persons. Quite how anthropologists envision the Neandertaler. -
Days ago, I´ve just been pointing to someone basics that I think to see morphologically and from there mentally and again musically.
Basically:
Morphologically seen; three types. Pyknic, athletic, leptosome. With the Neandertaler rather occupying the first shape and the HS rather the middle and specially the last.
Solid body shapes generally tend to develop in colder regions, for benefit of smaller surface, and skinnier types vice versa. (Which being why to my taste sub-species of the cold tending to come out more beautiful. Think of Canadian wolves, grizzlies, ice bears, northern rabbit, Siberian Tiger etc. in comparison to their lighter, skinnier, big eared, long legged fellas around the equator who need preventing / venting off warmth).
In the same time nervous stability (patience / good nature) tend to be more with pyknic types (who also need to spare their energy and health in the cold), and vice versa, skinnies tending more towards the nervous, fidgety and finally more aggressive side of attitude.
And so little wonder, I´d say, that music of the north is being more laid back and of full notes, whilst southern hemisphere showcasting more of swirly concepts, fractioned notes and tremolo.
The guy I was telling this did not want to agree at all, for his personal southern background. Rejecting even the scientifical parts of my assumption (body shape /climate, body shape / neurological tendency).
Anyway, long live Neandertaler! ... errr
Ruphus
PS: Neandertaler is a hominid subspecies, not another species. From there not really surprising that they could interbreed and without infertile hybrids.
PS2: In view of a public case of liaised siblings (4 kids, one handicapped), a specialist -to everyone´s surprise, I guess; certainly to mine- stated that there were much less deformations occuring from incest than commonly believed.
If you are interested in this proto speech stuff and how it could have developed into musics you might be interested in Leonard Bernstein's lectures at Harvard.
He compares the development of music to a linguistic development model and in the process does some very risky, yet spot on speculation about the way the first words and sung came about. He says himself this is my indulgent self experimentation, but it serves the purpose f his lecture and is quite brilliant. There are 13 hours of this lecture, but the part you want is in the first hour.
BTW Human body types are classed as endomorph, mesomorph and ectomorph, and there's also sexual dimorphism, showing that either the male or female of the species is larger or smaller according to sex. In humans sexual dimorphism is male larger-female smaller (in some spiders the opposite by a factor 2 or 3 yikes.) Geographic or topological conditions don't fully dictate the development of body type, much of that is selective and has to do with genetic isolation of groups, and many other factors. That is why Nordic people can be tall and thin and in equatorial Africa groups like the Twa exist.
The twa by the way have amazing music which kind of fits with Bernstein's talk about proto singing.
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