A fun "discussion" about the gitano role of flamenco (Full Version)

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gmburns -> A fun "discussion" about the gitano role of flamenco (Oct. 13 2015 0:00:06)

Maybe you've seen this, but it was a fun read about the gitano influence of flamenco between Manuel Moreo and "some dude". Yeah, I know, a somewhat tired debate, but when you get popcorn served with it then it's fun again.

Moreo - "The protagonist role of the Gypsies is indisputable, despite twisted and mediocre minds which try to usurp the role which history has given to us – just as every people have their own such role. I wonder what their objective must be, when they try to take away from us our most evident sign of identity and a defining part of our race."

José Ramón Zapata Chacón - "Let me try to do the same thing: I cite the writing of a Gypsyphile, Rafael Lafuente (in the book “Los Gitanos, el Flamenco y los Flamencos”): “The strange thing is that the Gypsies have never created anything which has been attributed to them. Cante flamenco is not their creation, nor is the “ángel“ which we attribute to them…”"

Here's the link: http://www.flamencoexperience.com/blog/?p=951



Sr. Martins -> RE: A fun "discussion" about the gitano role of flamenco (Oct. 13 2015 0:28:25)

It's funny, today I was watching a documentary which made me think about that subject..

What was exactly the main contribution of the gitanos to flamenco music? It looks like it was more in the spreading by the way of life rather than some artistic input from a musical heritage.



gmburns -> RE: A fun "discussion" about the gitano role of flamenco (Oct. 13 2015 1:06:02)

With today's number of palos? Yeah, it seems that way for sure, but it started with jaleos right? For a good many years it was just that then solea, seguiriyas, the "T"s, etc. How it expanded after that...well, it seems that a lot of the strong payo cantaores in the cafe cante era weren't gitano but revered the gitano traditions, and maybe the gitanos themselves broadened into other areas, bringing their regional styles slowly into the picture.

That's conjecture of course. I really don't know anything. But it seems to me being gitano or not is not as important as it used to be.

I think the thing that hurts the early gitanos is that many of them absolutely refused to perform outside of their circles and / or record later on. This can't be held against them, but it certainly doesn't help them as a result of the obvious lack of documentation.



Sr. Martins -> RE: A fun "discussion" about the gitano role of flamenco (Oct. 13 2015 1:26:02)

I think that gypsies main contribute is the way of life. If andaluzia was heavy on jazz at that time we would have some sort of gipsy jazz instead of flamenco.

Had the gitanos spread to Lisboa and they would've certainly mixed into Fado too and it would still sound pretty much like Fado does or maybe it would have a little more balls... still the same though.



gmburns -> RE: A fun "discussion" about the gitano role of flamenco (Oct. 13 2015 1:57:22)

well, goes back to the other thread "what is flamenco" really. Flamenco is just a word that came about in the mid 1800s. The gitano lifestyle definitely influenced it. In my opinion that's enough. In fact, in my opinion that's the essence, or the important part. it's what makes flamenco flamenco.

but still, the article was fun. good spit from the responder.



Sr. Martins -> RE: A fun "discussion" about the gitano role of flamenco (Oct. 13 2015 2:15:39)

To me that's the thing, lifestyle and attitude. It influenced the music like so many other factors did.

That's why I have a hard time understanding all the "you have to be a gitano" when a dude just bought a guitar and wants to play some falsetas.



BarkellWH -> RE: A fun "discussion" about the gitano role of flamenco (Oct. 13 2015 4:03:56)

In my opinion, although the Gitanos no doubt have contributed elements to flamenco, they overplay their hand by a wide margin when they appropriate the genre and claim it as their own. Brook Zern's observations are always a good read. I liked his summing up at the end, where he admits the Payos have pretty much won the argument, but then writes:

"Just gimme five: the three deep song forms (the soleá, the siguiriyas and the tonás group that includes the martinete, debla and carcelera); plus two more — the tangos; and the bulerías. A measly ten percent — plus the folky Gypsy wedding song called the alboreá and maybe the zambra that they dance and sing in Granada. In round numbers, 55 to 7 for a clear payo [non-Gypsy] victory. So we’ll call it even, and everyone goes home happy."

A nice way to end it, but I would disagree with calling zambra Gitano. Zambra, more than any other palo, is a direct contribution of the Moors that the Gitanos appropriated, but it certainly is not their own. Without the strong Moorish influence, zambra would not exist.

Nevertheless, another interesting piece by Brook Zern.

Bill



estebanana -> RE: A fun "discussion" about the gitano role of flamenco (Oct. 13 2015 4:56:52)

Brook Zern applying Yogi Berra logic.



Ruphus -> RE: A fun "discussion" about the gitano role of flamenco (Oct. 13 2015 11:52:51)

No doubt how gitanos have adapted surrounding music.

But I always think that it took the gypsie´s social condition to provide what flamenco is. A sociology that means groups of people joint for much of the day, and lots of time at hand specially to develop such a guitar playing for acompanying.
-

Anyone know why they used to refuse playing in public / recording?
Was it inferiority feeling about what they may have considered unbound trash in comparison to conservatory music?

Ruphus



Ricardo -> RE: A fun "discussion" about the gitano role of flamenco (Oct. 14 2015 17:47:21)

my payo friends...MOST of the cantes are created by gitanos from andalucia, not payos nor others from outside the region. You can't do percentages of PALOS, but by INDIVIDUAL STYLES....there are dozens and dozens more solea or siguiriya variants than guajira, polo, caña ...for example. Like 3 vs 23 melodies. Look at Norman's site at all the varients....vast majority of gitano creation, then you can take a look at the best flamenco singers in history and soon realize they dominant both creation and interpretation.

Guitar is a different story. I would say it's more 50/50 there.

What gitanos (generally around the world) tend to do is adapt ideas quickly and morph it to their own style which can quick become a genre of it's own. THink about American Jazz and Django, Spanish rumba vs French Gypsy kings, etc etc. In USA there are these Romanian Gypsies and all the little Kids that play guitar do only the repertoire of ALEX FOX....but with their own style...it started in Miami and wedding after wedding the style diseminated. It's interesting to observe such a fast evolution.

To point out what payos have done in a genre, in hopes to belittle the monumental contribution of the gitano, is simply racist in my view.

Ricardo



Sr. Martins -> RE: A fun "discussion" about the gitano role of flamenco (Oct. 14 2015 18:07:30)

I am ok with gitanos as contributors but I see no evidence of the "total ownership" that some try to sell. To me that is racist.



Ricardo -> RE: A fun "discussion" about the gitano role of flamenco (Oct. 14 2015 18:26:46)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sr. Martins

I am ok with gitanos as contributors but I see no evidence of the "total ownership" that some try to sell. To me that is racist.


It is more a part of their family and culture than it is for your average NON gypsy Andalusian person. It just so happens it is also part of some payos family as well...but in comparatively rare cases. The "ownership" concept comes from the question: to which group of people is THIS music a way of life whether they like it or not? While it (flamenco music as part of life) may be dying out slowly, the gitanos still keep with their family tradtions. Payos don't typically have arranged marriages etc.

There will be some hardcore gitanos that want to keep flamenco, or aspects, "secret" from non family, non gypsy people. This very closed culture concept is INDEED racist, extremely so...but hopefully you can appreciate the difference between attempting to preserve some concept of "purity" vs claiming the contribution by the group of people is exaggerated.



Ricardo -> RE: A fun "discussion" about the gitano role of flamenco (Oct. 14 2015 18:34:56)

Let me put it this way...Flamenco is a decidely ANDALUCIAN GYPSY artform, despite the fact that there have been many exceptional contributions by unusually talented Payos....Payos, many of whom, ended up marrying into gypsy families or have otherwise close personal ties to gitanos BECAUSE of the flamenco art they excel in.

Hope that makes sense.



Sr. Martins -> RE: A fun "discussion" about the gitano role of flamenco (Oct. 14 2015 20:03:17)

quote:

Flamenco is a decidely ANDALUCIAN GYPSY artform


With that I agree. "Andalucian" makes a big difference.

It's like saying caucasians invented Fado... that doesn't mean anything and it would sound stupid if we started to say that "Fado belongs to us, caucasians". To me that's being racist, which is what most gitanos are anyways so... it's understandable to a degree. Eastern european gypsies don't give two craps about flamenco.



Leñador -> RE: A fun "discussion" about the gitano role of flamenco (Oct. 14 2015 20:52:20)

Speaking of racist the word caucasian really gets under my skin for some reason.....So out dated but still gets used on official forms, like calling asians Mongoloids and Africans Negroids......It's a hangover from an era of old racist anthropology practices.



Sr. Martins -> RE: A fun "discussion" about the gitano role of flamenco (Oct. 14 2015 21:07:22)

I just used it as an example. My speech is precisely against all this.

That's why to me flamenco is music from Andalucia. No need to be specific about what "race" had more or less influence on it's development... and specially no need to say that it belongs to a certain race.



Leñador -> RE: A fun "discussion" about the gitano role of flamenco (Oct. 14 2015 21:17:19)

No yeah, I get what you were saying, and also it doesn't get under my skin so much when an individual is racist just when institutions are.



BarkellWH -> RE: A fun "discussion" about the gitano role of flamenco (Oct. 14 2015 21:48:54)

quote:

What gitanos (generally around the world) tend to do is adapt ideas quickly and morph it to their own style which can quick become a genre of it's own....To point out what payos have done in a genre, in hopes to belittle the monumental contribution of the gitano, is simply racist in my view.


What I meant in my comment above about Gitanos overplaying their hand when they appropriate flamenco and claim it as their own is that it seems to me they attempt to establish the myth that they created it. They've created their own "foundation myth" that does not acknowledge the actual roots of the genre. I'm looking beyond the question of whether today (or even yesterday) payos or Gitanos have contributed more to the genre as we know it. It seems to me that Gitanos do not want to acknowledge that the very foundation and roots of flamenco lie in the influence of the Moors, the Sephardic Jews, the Andalucians (including the Gitanos), and others we may not even know about.

I would agree that to point out what payos have done in the genre "in the hope of belittling the monumental contribution of the Gitano" (key phrase in quotes) might be considered racist. But it is equally racist for Gitanos to lay claim to having created the genre without acknowledging the monumental contribution of the Moors, the Sephardic Jews, and other Andalucians at the time those influences were coalescing into what eventually became flamenco.

Bill



Ricardo -> RE: A fun "discussion" about the gitano role of flamenco (Oct. 15 2015 10:50:36)

quote:

I would agree that to point out what payos have done in the genre "in the hope of belittling the monumental contribution of the Gitano" (key phrase in quotes) might be considered racist. But it is equally racist for Gitanos to lay claim to having created the genre without acknowledging the monumental contribution of the Moors, the Sephardic Jews, and other Andalucians at the time those influences were coalescing into what eventually became flamenco.


But in my experience they don't do this...they quite openly discuss the outside INFLUENCES on cante, especially ARABIC....some gitanos feel their style of music is directly coming from arabic origins...and yet others acknowledge the majority of great guitar players are payos...but when it comes to CREATION of the cante song forms, what flamenco finally IS, they are mostly attributed to gypsies.

Conversely the ones that DOWNPLAY this fact, more often spanish non gypsies, love to point out the outside influence, the non gypsy master singers, etc etc, in a way that just comes off ugly to me. It's just my outsider perspective on it.

Ricardo



Sr. Martins -> RE: A fun "discussion" about the gitano role of flamenco (Oct. 15 2015 12:52:09)

quote:

Conversely the ones that DOWNPLAY this fact, more often spanish non gypsies, love to point out the outside influence, the non gypsy master singers, etc etc, in a way that just comes off ugly to me. It's just my outsider perspective on it.



If there's an outside influence, I don't think there's anything wrong with doing that.

Saying that there is no outside influence when there is or that a certain genre belongs to a race, well.. that doesn't seem right to me.



Morante -> RE: A fun "discussion" about the gitano role of flamenco (Oct. 15 2015 15:23:17)

I wonder if Sr. Martins has ever been in Andalucía or has ever accompanied a gitano por seguiriyas?

It seems to me that Ricardo is the only poster here who understands the realidad.



Sr. Martins -> RE: A fun "discussion" about the gitano role of flamenco (Oct. 15 2015 15:50:55)

Right.

I would be very sorprendido if you had anything diferente to contribute to this kind of topic.



Ruphus -> RE: A fun "discussion" about the gitano role of flamenco (Oct. 15 2015 16:16:49)

Everything has roots, and it is always interesting to make them out.

But taking flamenco from the gitanos is like saying German and Austrian classical music was Celtic, or the blues being British just because of the orginal blend.

I think Gipsies all over the world have seen enough of disregard for at least to be let alone with achievements of their own.

Flamenco has nothing largely comparable in Asia or in Europe. It is a very vital product of Gypsies in Spain. And the way I see things, it has that typical foodprint of explosive (danceable / emotional) expression like other Gypsy music like for instance in the Balkan.
It is theirs.

Ruphus

PS:
Saw clips yesterday on many of folk dances from around the world.
Boy, is the most of it some lame stuff!



BarkellWH -> RE: A fun "discussion" about the gitano role of flamenco (Oct. 15 2015 20:28:21)

quote:

Flamenco has nothing largely comparable in Asia or in Europe. It is a very vital product of Gypsies in Spain.


I agree, Ruphus, and I am on board with Ricardo's observations, too, regarding the vital role flamenco has played in Gitano life and the contribution of Gitanos to the genre, particularly in cante. The reason, however, that there is nothing comparable in Asia or Europe is because of demographics and geography. Asia and Europe had nothing comparable to Al Andalus, with its mix of Moorish (Arabic), Sephardic Jewish, and other Andalucian (including Gitano) influences.

my impression, however, is there is a fairly widespread belief that flamenco developed as part of the historical cultural patrimony of the Gitanos alone, i.e., that it has been present in some form from their earliest roots, like Athena springing from the forehead of Zeus. Perhaps that is something the Andalucian Chamber of Commerce and Tourist Agency would like people to believe. I would never attempt to take flamenco away from the Gitano cultural patrimony, but I also would like to see acknowledgement that that patrimony is not theirs alone, that it comes from many sources and reflects the many cultures of Al Andalus.

Bill



Sr. Martins -> RE: A fun "discussion" about the gitano role of flamenco (Oct. 15 2015 20:36:30)

quote:

my impression, however, is there is a fairly widespread belief that flamenco developed as part of the historical cultural patrimony of the Gitanos alone, i.e., that it has been present in some form from their earliest roots, like Athena springing from the forehead of Zeus. Perhaps that is something the Andalucian Chamber of Commerce and Tourist Agency would like people to believe. I would never attempt to take flamenco away from the Gitano cultural patrimony, but I also would like to see acknowledgement that that patrimony is not theirs alone, that it comes from many sources and reflects the many cultures of Al Andalus.


This.



Ruphus -> RE: A fun "discussion" about the gitano role of flamenco (Oct. 15 2015 20:54:57)

Hi Bill,

Examples of culture from melting pots there are plenty.

But to my estimation gitano´s sociology and tradition appears to be the essence of flamenco. It provided the situation for that special "group music" that it is. It would just as well had come to live in any other region, similar to other genres of gypsy music.

What stems from oriental and what from occidental origin in this music is rather clearly to be heard, no need for emphasize on that. Yet, essential is the condition that gave birth to this genre, and that is not Moorish nor Jewish, but due to the ways of this once nomadic and among themselves very socially living ethnic group.
Innit?

Ruphus



Morante -> RE: A fun "discussion" about the gitano role of flamenco (Oct. 16 2015 15:21:35)

quote:

If you have ever been in Andalucía or has ever accompanied a gitano por seguiriyas
No lo creo.

If I am wrong, I invite you to Cádiz and I would not only apologize, but invite to to great food and organize a private juerga where you could play for a great cantaor gitano.



Sr. Martins -> RE: A fun "discussion" about the gitano role of flamenco (Oct. 16 2015 15:35:52)

This is about having
quote:

A fun "discussion"
.. why does everything tiene que ser go to spain and gitanos for all?



Ricardo -> RE: A fun "discussion" about the gitano role of flamenco (Oct. 16 2015 18:07:50)

I tried to draw parallels to some other gypsy music styles but some folks don't seem to be getting the point. Ok, let me try this.

jazz evolved out of blues and dixie land stuff. mostly african american peoples. There we have a "peppering" of non black contributors to the genre early on. Fair enough? The gypsy in france, inspired by this music, took the style and standards (forms if you will) during "swing" era, and developed what is now clearly it's own genre, called by most in the know and themselves "GYPSY HOT JAZZ"...ok? Still with me? To be clear this is entire genre with it't own rules for rhythm, improvisation, a set of standards, etc, totally separate from mainstream or straight ahead jazz or blues. It's called "limehouse blues" but in the hands of the gypsy maestro from france, it's it's own thing. And again we might find a "peppering" of non gypsies contributing important things to this specific style. But it is a GYPSY music, despite it's "influences" or even origins. Not understand this is why certain record companies failed to come to terms with a guy like JIMMY ROSENBERG...thinking "oh what a great JAZZ player lets give HIM a big contract"...without undertanding what GYPSY MUSIC really is about. Big fail.

Ok, so now we have andalucia analogy. Sure it's a big mix of things. Sevillanas (blues), seguidilla (dixie land), rumba or fandango (swing) etc, basically a universal folk music. some gypsies created new things with seguidilla, call it siguiriya now, fandango , jaleos, jotas, etc...it became it's own genre, separate from your average folk music...now it's called FLAMENCO. It's totally gypsie, and sure that is more than "peppering" of non gypsies because, unique to andalucia is the INTERMIXING of gitanos and non gitanos...both due to work and literal inter racial marriage being allowed. This is not as common with gypsies in Romania, France, or even just in North of Spain.

So to be clear as to my point...American Jazz is to Andalucian Folk music in general as Gypsy Hot Jazz is to FLAMENCO specifically. Only because we have so many non gitanos interpreting flamenco do we need extra adjectives such as "cante gitano" or
rumba gitana", and "payo" takes on a negative meaning. Just like "white" can sound negative in certain rhythm and blues contexts. A black american jazz guy can point at a french gypsy and say "hey, you stole our music and changed it..." any andaluz non gitano folk musician can do the same to a spanish gypsy but needs to also admit the final result is what the rest of the world calls,conclusively, FLAMENCO.



Sr. Martins -> RE: A fun "discussion" about the gitano role of flamenco (Oct. 16 2015 19:17:09)

quote:

It's totally gypsie, and sure that is more than "peppering" of non gypsies because, unique to andalucia is the INTERMIXING of gitanos and non gitanos...both due to work and literal inter racial marriage being allowed. This is not as common with gypsies in Romania, France, or even just in North of Spain.



When you specify "Gitanos from Andalucia", it means "a group of people from a certain place".

If you forget about the place and try to take ownership of something as "it belongs to race X", not only it is obviously racist but also fails at depicting the truth because it entails a WHOLE race that is spread across the world.




For the reasons mentioned, I think it's perfectly acceptable to say that Flamenco comes from Spain or, more specifically, Andalucia but... Raza Gitana as a whole... no. Not only it sounds bad but it's also giving credit to people who never heard of Bulerias or Solea.

Portugal is right next to Spain and if "our" gitanos represent Flamenco, then Flamenco sucks REALLY bad.

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