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Dani de Moron hand position
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Ricardo
Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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 RE: Dani de Moron hand position (in reply to HolyEvil)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HolyEvil
Hey guys, does anyone here position their right hand for arpeggios like dani de moron?
His hand has a straight wrist, with no ulnar deviation (bending laterally towards the little finger side, his fingers are about 45 degree ish to the strings. Compared to what I've been taught, which is more like Gerardo nunez position where the fingers are more perpendicular to the strings, with the wrist bent.
I have a index finger problem with i find it really hard to alternate arpeggio with imimim mimimi etc. I'm testing with dani's position to see if it helps with the problem,does anyone know or notice from dani's videos whether his wrist is flex only very slightly or not bent at all when he does arpeggios.
It's been nearly 3 years since I can play flamenco properly and I would like to play it again.
I can't seem to upload photos on my iPad, will upload it on wed when I get home on my pc.
Cheers
Ok I watched a bunch of videos. He doesn't do "arpegios" in the normal sense. I would describe his playing as "coordinated legatos"....that being he does a myriad of highly personalized RH techniques to keep the fluid and quite precise (although quiet) left hand mechanics flowing. For example, I see a repeat in several palos of something that goes like this: thumb across a single or couple bass notes, a plucking/grabbing or brief arp like ima or ami, then thumb again and change angle of wrist to play with flesh of thumb on trebels strings, then pull arm way up to do imi type picado burst (with tons of in efficient extra movement), then repeat it all again with totally different left hand notes that are filling in legatos at every possible moment and making it all sound pretty. the brief ima or ami things might be replaced by p-m-i, or p-p-i type things more often than not.
His pulgar and alzapua passages are pretty normal understanding he loves his ligados to connect the dots as often as possible. And his true "flamenco" feeling comes out with his aggressive rasgueados that are in stark dynamic contrast to his relatively soft legato stuff. All in all I would say his style is so personalized you might have to go for the note for note type transcription of some passages, rather than base any of your own technique on the visual alone, if you intend to execute more traditional style music or just want to develop a general solid technique.
ricardo
_____________________________
CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Oct. 6 2014 5:20:34
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Blondie#2
Posts: 530
Joined: Sep. 14 2010
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RE: Dani de Moron hand position (in reply to HolyEvil)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HolyEvil
My finger doesn't have pain, it just doesn't wanna do what I tell it to do, and the I fingert twitches if I rest my middle finger on the string, I'm trying to do as little planting as possible with the m finger, which is really hard cuz I've always practice planting.
And alternating imim arpeggio is hard cuz the i does a plucking motion when m plays, so it's really hard to do imim cuz the i is going iiiiiiii all the time.
Ok so we have already discussed your issue a few times:
http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=217327&appid=&p=&mpage=4&key=focal%2Cdystonia%2Cholyevil&tmode=&smode=&s=#221703
http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=189147&appid=&p=&mpage=1&key=focal%2Cdystonia%2Cholyevil&tmode=&smode=&s=#227733
http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=245940&appid=&p=&mpage=1&key=focal%2Cdystonia%2Cholyevil&tmode=&smode=&s=#245989
With a movement disorder like this, your brain's map of I and M is messed up, and overlapping when it should be clear and distinct. When I had this problem my I finger wouldn't just twitch or do a plucking motion when I played M, it actually curled tightly into my palm, much worse than your problem.
I do not think that Dani's wrist position is relevant and trying to copy it will probably be a dead end for you assuming you have a comfortable position already
actually this isn't a 'flamenco technique' issue at all and a good place for advice would be the Facebook group Elie mentioned in one of the previous threads.
Basically, you need retrain I and M to work independently - pluck single notes slowly just with I, free stroke, using a metronome & ensuring you let it return and feel it empty of tension completely each time. Make sure I is not interfering with any other fingers. Actually check this out with A finger too.
Then try it the same with M finger but this is the critical bit - set the metronome at a speed at which you can pluck and return/relax M without *any* unwanted movement in I, not even the slightest twitch. You will need to calibrate that and you keep moving the metronome down until you get there, could be one note per second or even slower, that's your threshold. Don't plant.
Once you have that speed, you stay there for a couple of of weeks working on that exercise. Then, as planting is an issue, try the exercise with a small amount preparation/planting. So lets say you are plucking freely with M at one note every two seconds and metronome is clicking every second ; well now try preparing M on the string every click in between your pluck so you are going: plant-pluck-plant-pluck against the metronome click.
Hopefully that makes sense.
Do this for a couple of weeks before notching it up slightly and repeat for another couple of weeks always staying below threshold.
Try it with rest stroke too, though free stroke is more important.
Once you have worked on that and are making good progress (couple of months maybe) you start to introduce complexity - IM and MA alternations, with the same principles, then different arpeggio combos but again this has to be done slowly (the Giuliani 120 right hand studies are good for this, the Berg edition is excellent).
Trying to play repertoire or anything more complicated will simply ingrain the problem you already have, it is like playing a stuck record, the needle will keep following the wrong path and if anything just consolidate that wrong path.
You need a lot of patience to retrain and resolve this, but it is certainly possible. I am sure Orson will chip in, he has some valuable thoughts/experience on this too.
That's a basic outline, there are lots of little things and tricks to help things but I am a slow typist.
HTH and by the way this methodology has been published in a paper by Sakai called Slow Down Therapy, I can send you a copy if you like.
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Oct. 7 2014 10:50:37
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HolyEvil
Posts: 1240
Joined: Nov. 6 2008
From: Sydney, Australia
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RE: Dani de Moron hand position (in reply to HolyEvil)
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Thanks for the replies guys.
Another weird thing is that, I can do mamama or amamama without i twitching when m plays, it's only when i comes after the m then the i would twitch before it plays.
Eg pimama no twitching of i, but pmiami the i would twitch both times. In pimami, the twitching would only come at the last m before i is played.
Super weird.
My problem started out with i curling when p or a is played, with no m involvement, somehow in my retraining, i got involved with m.
Now i doesn't curl when p or a is played, all independent, but imim is bad but mimi is worse. Super weird.
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Oct. 7 2014 23:26:02
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