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Picado - MUST it really be strictly alternate?   You are logged in as Guest
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silddx

Posts: 570
Joined: May 8 2012
From: London

Picado - MUST it really be strictly ... 
n00b alert again :)

I play bass and rakes are perfectly acceptable, and I use the technique constantly.

I've been practising strict alternate and it's getting a little better, and I can see some advantages in it, power, consistent tone etc. But I'm finding it quite unnatural after 20 odd years of rake style.

But I remember reading that PdL said do what's right for you, can using rakes in fast picado ever be right in flamenco?

Thanks.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 26 2012 10:12:58
 
Elie

Posts: 1837
Joined: Apr. 10 2010
 

RE: Picado - MUST it really be stric... (in reply to silddx) 
rake as in this example :
---------------------------------------------------------------
----------8------------------8--------------------------------
----------9----Rake=>---9---------------------------------
----------9--------------- 9----------------------------------
----------7---------------7-----------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------------
?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 26 2012 11:19:31
 
xirdneH_imiJ

Posts: 1896
Joined: Dec. 2 2006
From: Budapest, now in Southampton

RE: Picado - MUST it really be stric... (in reply to silddx) 
i do it sometimes, but it's quite impossible to use it if you want to go really fast...practicing alternate is a good idea in this case i think...
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 26 2012 12:42:02
 
Ramon Amira

 

Posts: 1025
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
From: New York City

RE: Picado - MUST it really be stric... (in reply to xirdneH_imiJ) 
quote:

it's quite impossible to use it if you want to go really fast...


Not true. I have seen many players use a repeated finger at high tempos. Manitas de Plata played a plenty fast picado repeating fingers. Juanjo Dominguez does it also.

Ramon

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 26 2012 13:06:06
 
kudo

Posts: 2064
Joined: Sep. 3 2009
 

RE: Picado - MUST it really be stric... (in reply to silddx) 
quote:

rakes are perfectly acceptable,

whats that?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 26 2012 13:09:14
 
odinz

Posts: 407
Joined: May 26 2010
From: Sarpsborg,Norway

RE: Picado - MUST it really be stric... (in reply to kudo) 
I have a couple, they are nice for collecting leaf in the garden

Though I suspect this is not the kind of rake people refer to here...


Ayayay

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 26 2012 13:28:34
 
bursche

Posts: 1182
Joined: Jul. 19 2007
From: Frankfurt, Germany

RE: Picado - MUST it really be stric... (in reply to odinz) 
if you repeat a finger that is where you'll lose it again and again and again.
You must always use alternate picado.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 26 2012 15:03:26
 
rogeliocan

Posts: 811
Joined: Nov. 23 2009
From: Canada

RE: Picado - MUST it really be stric... (in reply to silddx) 
I am no expert but just thinking about why something is right or wrong, you need to be able to determine if it has a negative effect other than 'pure' technique.

On the same string, for sure alternating is faster, you don't want to have to move the finger you just plucked with back to the string and use it again... lose a lot of time and energy.

But through a rake, you play a string apoyando, it falls on the next string, and it is already set for playing that string. I don't think you lose any speed since that is where it landed. Does it cause a sound difference reusing it? You me the judge of that...

In the end if it works for you, doesn't slow you down or result in poor sound, does it matter? I would not learn to play that way but if you already do this and it works...
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 26 2012 15:27:51
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14852
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Picado - MUST it really be stric... (in reply to silddx) 
It's ok to work some of these things into decending runs. But it is IMPOSSIBLE to for ascending runs or patterns. So do you want to have a speed limit on the direction of a meldy? Probably it is better to be equal control of speed in any direction....hence the need to focus on alternation and control over awkward string crossing which will be inevitable at some point.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 26 2012 16:29:25
 
NormanKliman

Posts: 1143
Joined: Sep. 1 2007
 

RE: Picado - MUST it really be stric... (in reply to silddx) 
I think as a general rule you shouldn't repeat but it will depend on the phrase. As an exception, sometimes it's okay to repeat when there's a brief pause (could be very brief, like an eighth note or even a sixteenth) and alternating would be awkward. But that's something that emerges after years of practicing the alternating pattern.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 26 2012 18:26:45
 
silddx

Posts: 570
Joined: May 8 2012
From: London

RE: Picado - MUST it really be stric... (in reply to silddx) 
Thanks all, I will continue to practice alternating. I'm actually much faster with rakes, but they seem less precise than on the bass, and tone and timing accuracy seems to suffer. I like the idea of alternate, it feels 'safer' if you know what I mean :)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 26 2012 20:25:05
 
Ramon Amira

 

Posts: 1025
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
From: New York City

RE: Picado - MUST it really be stric... (in reply to silddx) 
I use and recommend and teach strict alternation, because you really want to be consistent and have control in any direction, and as Ricardo points out you can't do it ascending. Nor can you do it on the same string at any reasonable tempo.

But at a slow tempo, there is nothing really wrong with it, even on the same string. Rafael Cortes repeats a finger on the same string in this video.



Manitas de Plata also did something interesting with a repeated finger, that is not done very often. He plays a descending arpeggio on the first, second, and third strings, that is usually played with A-M-I, and plays it all with a repeated finger.

Ramon

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 26 2012 20:43:05

ToddK

 

Posts: 2961
Joined: Dec. 6 2004
 

RE: Picado - MUST it really be stric... (in reply to Ramon Amira) 
quote:

But at a slow tempo, there is nothing really wrong with it, even on the same string. Rafael Cortes repeats a finger on the same string in this video.


Huh? I think you're confused. Playing one string twice with the same
finger is not "raking" or "sweeping". You have to move the finger in
the opposite direction to hit the string again. Totally defeats the purpose.
The point of raking or sweeping is to move the finger in only one direction.

its exactly like sweep picking for electric guitar. If you have to lift the pick
at any point, its not a sweep.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 26 2012 21:51:17
 
Ramon Amira

 

Posts: 1025
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
From: New York City

RE: Picado - MUST it really be stric... (in reply to ToddK) 
quote:



quote:

But at a slow tempo, there is nothing really wrong with it, even on the same string. Rafael Cortes repeats a finger on the same string in this video.



Huh? I think you're confused. Playing one string twice with the same
finger is not "raking" or "sweeping". You have to move the finger in
the opposite direction to hit the string again. Totally defeats the purpose.
The point of raking or sweeping is to move the finger in only one direction.

its exactly like sweep picking for electric guitar. If you have to lift the pick
at any point, its not a sweep.



Todd –

No, I'm not confused at all. You're confusing "raking" with "repeating a finger." Read my posts. I never used the term "raking." I said "repeating a finger." "Raking" is repeating a finger by using the same finger descending on different strings. "Repeating a finger" is just what it says, using the same finger twice or more in succession, which can be on different strings or on the same string.

Ramon

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 26 2012 23:07:12
 
aloysius

Posts: 233
Joined: Apr. 7 2005
From: Adelaide, Australia

RE: Picado - MUST it really be stric... (in reply to silddx) 
The way I see it - strict alternation sets up a rhythm in the fingers. so if you are doing a semiquaver run in alegrias, if the first beat is with i then every beat is played with i. Or with a triplet run in bulerias, the beat will alternate between an i stroke and an m stroke, still an even pattern though. It's like you're playing drums and i is one hand, m is the other - you want to internalise the rhythm and set up an even pattern of neural firing which has a relationship to the rhythm of the music you're making.

It's maybe somewhat analogous to alternate picking vs what's sometimes called economy picking that jazz guitarists like Jimmy Bruno do - although many of those guys are possibly aiming for a horn-like, talky, meandering line rather than a rhythmically charged one suitable in flamenco music.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 27 2012 6:03:55
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: Picado - MUST it really be stric... (in reply to Ramon Amira) 
quote:

I use and recommend and teach strict alternation, because you really want to be consistent and have control in any direction, and as Ricardo points out you can't do it ascending.


that's what everyone says, and that's what i practise....

but when i watch people play, nearly everyone repeats and/or drags a finger from a higher to lower string sometimes, and sometimes quite often - just go through the Encuentro videos for examples, Tomatito, Pepe Habichuela, Enrique de Melchor, Chicuelo (tangos, alegrias, solea por bulerias, etc.), Gerardo Nuñez tangos (por medio) picado falseta is a good example
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 30 2012 10:56:24
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