Picado - MUST it really be strictly alternate? (Full Version)

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silddx -> Picado - MUST it really be strictly alternate? (May 26 2012 10:12:58)

n00b alert again :)

I play bass and rakes are perfectly acceptable, and I use the technique constantly.

I've been practising strict alternate and it's getting a little better, and I can see some advantages in it, power, consistent tone etc. But I'm finding it quite unnatural after 20 odd years of rake style.

But I remember reading that PdL said do what's right for you, can using rakes in fast picado ever be right in flamenco?

Thanks.



Elie -> RE: Picado - MUST it really be strictly alternate? (May 26 2012 11:19:31)

rake as in this example :
---------------------------------------------------------------
----------8------------------8--------------------------------
----------9----Rake=>---9---------------------------------
----------9--------------- 9----------------------------------
----------7---------------7-----------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------------
?



xirdneH_imiJ -> RE: Picado - MUST it really be strictly alternate? (May 26 2012 12:42:02)

i do it sometimes, but it's quite impossible to use it if you want to go really fast...practicing alternate is a good idea in this case i think...



Ramon Amira -> RE: Picado - MUST it really be strictly alternate? (May 26 2012 13:06:06)

quote:

it's quite impossible to use it if you want to go really fast...


Not true. I have seen many players use a repeated finger at high tempos. Manitas de Plata played a plenty fast picado repeating fingers. Juanjo Dominguez does it also.

Ramon



kudo -> RE: Picado - MUST it really be strictly alternate? (May 26 2012 13:09:14)

quote:

rakes are perfectly acceptable,

whats that?



odinz -> RE: Picado - MUST it really be strictly alternate? (May 26 2012 13:28:34)

I have a couple, they are nice for collecting leaf in the garden[;)]

Though I suspect this is not the kind of rake people refer to here...


Ayayay[:(]



bursche -> RE: Picado - MUST it really be strictly alternate? (May 26 2012 15:03:26)

if you repeat a finger that is where you'll lose it again and again and again.
You must always use alternate picado.



rogeliocan -> RE: Picado - MUST it really be strictly alternate? (May 26 2012 15:27:51)

I am no expert but just thinking about why something is right or wrong, you need to be able to determine if it has a negative effect other than 'pure' technique.

On the same string, for sure alternating is faster, you don't want to have to move the finger you just plucked with back to the string and use it again... lose a lot of time and energy.

But through a rake, you play a string apoyando, it falls on the next string, and it is already set for playing that string. I don't think you lose any speed since that is where it landed. Does it cause a sound difference reusing it? You me the judge of that...

In the end if it works for you, doesn't slow you down or result in poor sound, does it matter? I would not learn to play that way but if you already do this and it works...



Ricardo -> RE: Picado - MUST it really be strictly alternate? (May 26 2012 16:29:25)

It's ok to work some of these things into decending runs. But it is IMPOSSIBLE to for ascending runs or patterns. So do you want to have a speed limit on the direction of a meldy? Probably it is better to be equal control of speed in any direction....hence the need to focus on alternation and control over awkward string crossing which will be inevitable at some point.



NormanKliman -> RE: Picado - MUST it really be strictly alternate? (May 26 2012 18:26:45)

I think as a general rule you shouldn't repeat but it will depend on the phrase. As an exception, sometimes it's okay to repeat when there's a brief pause (could be very brief, like an eighth note or even a sixteenth) and alternating would be awkward. But that's something that emerges after years of practicing the alternating pattern.



silddx -> RE: Picado - MUST it really be strictly alternate? (May 26 2012 20:25:05)

Thanks all, I will continue to practice alternating. I'm actually much faster with rakes, but they seem less precise than on the bass, and tone and timing accuracy seems to suffer. I like the idea of alternate, it feels 'safer' if you know what I mean :)



Ramon Amira -> RE: Picado - MUST it really be strictly alternate? (May 26 2012 20:43:05)

I use and recommend and teach strict alternation, because you really want to be consistent and have control in any direction, and as Ricardo points out you can't do it ascending. Nor can you do it on the same string at any reasonable tempo.

But at a slow tempo, there is nothing really wrong with it, even on the same string. Rafael Cortes repeats a finger on the same string in this video.



Manitas de Plata also did something interesting with a repeated finger, that is not done very often. He plays a descending arpeggio on the first, second, and third strings, that is usually played with A-M-I, and plays it all with a repeated finger.

Ramon



ToddK -> RE: Picado - MUST it really be strictly alternate? (May 26 2012 21:51:17)

quote:

But at a slow tempo, there is nothing really wrong with it, even on the same string. Rafael Cortes repeats a finger on the same string in this video.


Huh? I think you're confused. Playing one string twice with the same
finger is not "raking" or "sweeping". You have to move the finger in
the opposite direction to hit the string again. Totally defeats the purpose.
The point of raking or sweeping is to move the finger in only one direction.

its exactly like sweep picking for electric guitar. If you have to lift the pick
at any point, its not a sweep.



Ramon Amira -> RE: Picado - MUST it really be strictly alternate? (May 26 2012 23:07:12)

quote:



quote:

But at a slow tempo, there is nothing really wrong with it, even on the same string. Rafael Cortes repeats a finger on the same string in this video.



Huh? I think you're confused. Playing one string twice with the same
finger is not "raking" or "sweeping". You have to move the finger in
the opposite direction to hit the string again. Totally defeats the purpose.
The point of raking or sweeping is to move the finger in only one direction.

its exactly like sweep picking for electric guitar. If you have to lift the pick
at any point, its not a sweep.



Todd –

No, I'm not confused at all. You're confusing "raking" with "repeating a finger." Read my posts. I never used the term "raking." I said "repeating a finger." "Raking" is repeating a finger by using the same finger descending on different strings. "Repeating a finger" is just what it says, using the same finger twice or more in succession, which can be on different strings or on the same string.

Ramon



aloysius -> RE: Picado - MUST it really be strictly alternate? (May 27 2012 6:03:55)

The way I see it - strict alternation sets up a rhythm in the fingers. so if you are doing a semiquaver run in alegrias, if the first beat is with i then every beat is played with i. Or with a triplet run in bulerias, the beat will alternate between an i stroke and an m stroke, still an even pattern though. It's like you're playing drums and i is one hand, m is the other - you want to internalise the rhythm and set up an even pattern of neural firing which has a relationship to the rhythm of the music you're making.

It's maybe somewhat analogous to alternate picking vs what's sometimes called economy picking that jazz guitarists like Jimmy Bruno do - although many of those guys are possibly aiming for a horn-like, talky, meandering line rather than a rhythmically charged one suitable in flamenco music.



mark indigo -> RE: Picado - MUST it really be strictly alternate? (May 30 2012 10:56:24)

quote:

I use and recommend and teach strict alternation, because you really want to be consistent and have control in any direction, and as Ricardo points out you can't do it ascending.


that's what everyone says, and that's what i practise....

but when i watch people play, nearly everyone repeats and/or drags a finger from a higher to lower string sometimes, and sometimes quite often - just go through the Encuentro videos for examples, Tomatito, Pepe Habichuela, Enrique de Melchor, Chicuelo (tangos, alegrias, solea por bulerias, etc.), Gerardo Nuñez tangos (por medio) picado falseta is a good example



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