Flamenco is Refreshing!

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tateharmann

Posts: 95
Joined: Mar. 12 2012
From: Minnesota, USA

Flamenco is Refreshing!

I have played Classical Guitar for a number of years now and I had hit a slump. I was feeling so tense while playing that I couldn't play for more than an hour at a time and after I would experience bad right hand pains. This also caused me to make a lot of mistakes in my playing. I had a breakthrough when I went to a friends house and picked up a cheap yamaha classical guitar that he had and barely played. It had a low action like a flamenco guitar and I played through many pieces of classical music with pure joy and no pain. I went out and bought a CG172SF and have been loving it. I started learning the rasgueado again that I tried a long time ago (ixam ala Juan Serrano) and find the crispness of the flamenco guitar amazing.

I also like the general laid-back attitude/playing of flamenco guitarists. For example I was listening to Amir John Haddad and at first I heard a lot of "mistakes" like uneven tremolo, string buzz, missed notes etc. But behind all of that is this amazing driving rhythmic pulse that doesn't exist in a lot of classical pieces. What an amazing guitarist he is. I'm going to take a break from classical study and work on some flamenco.

Is that Juan Serrano rasgueado a good one to start with? At this point I kind of find them all awkward but that's really the only one I can do cleanly. I'm going to start to practice the amii one too. Any suggestions are appreciated.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 12 2012 18:00:53

rombsix

Posts: 7805
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: Flamenco is Refreshing! (in reply to tateharmann)

quote:

Any suggestions are appreciated.

First, welcome to the world of flamenco.

Second, I would suggest you work on TWO ways of playing rasgueados: free stroke ones and rest stroke ones. The "free stroke" ones can also be referred to as "non-flicking" and the "rest stroke" ones can be referred to as "flicking" ones. Check out this thread to understand what I am talking about:

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=190985&p=1&tmode=1&smode=1

I posted a video somewhere in that thread which should illustrate things somehow better.

The reason why you want to practice both is because each is used to achieve a certain effect. Also, practicing the free-stroke ones builds great independence and strength of the fingers. The Juan Serrano one you are doing is great, but also try doing some flicking ones like what you suggested (amii) where you are firing each finger off of the anchor which is the thumb.

Cheers!

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Ramzi

http://www.youtube.com/rombsix

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 12 2012 18:18:27

El_Tortuga

Posts: 258
Joined: Aug. 11 2011
From: Canada

RE: Flamenco is Refreshing! (in reply to tateharmann)

Hello tateharmann,

As Ram said, welcome to the world of flamenco.

If I may be bold and offer a suggestion, my site http://liveguitartutor.com is built for helping students. I have been building my flamenco pages, so I think you'll find some useful material there.

Of course, there's lots happening here at the Foro too!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 12 2012 18:24:28

tateharmann

Posts: 95
Joined: Mar. 12 2012
From: Minnesota, USA

RE: Flamenco is Refreshing! (in reply to tateharmann)

Thanks guys for the suggestions! I checked out that thread Ramzi...this will be a great resource. I looked at your site too El_Tortuga and it looks great. I love soleá. I'll try some of those.

Thanks again,

Tate

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 12 2012 19:10:13

manicfingers

Posts: 47
Joined: Nov. 19 2011

RE: Flamenco is Refreshing! (in reply to tateharmann)

Flamenco. Welcome to the Dark Side. What have you done ?

You do realise that Flamenco is the 'Hotel California' of guitar music - you can check out any time, but you can never leave ?

That rhythmic pulsation is called 'Compas' with a funny squiggly thing over the 'a'. Practice with a metronome, always. Find the centre of every beat, and accent, feel what it's like to drift a fraction away from it, before or after. Feel how the groove dies when you don't dominate, ride over the top and control it. There's no parallel in classical music.

My advice would be to just sell your classicals right now. It's only a question of time

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 12 2012 22:04:52

tateharmann

Posts: 95
Joined: Mar. 12 2012
From: Minnesota, USA

RE: Flamenco is Refreshing! (in reply to tateharmann)

quote:

My advice would be to just sell your classicals right now. It's only a question of time

LOL...that though has actually already crossed my mind. I have to hang on a little longer though...in case I'm able to get this infectious rhythm out of my head...

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 13 2012 3:02:53

Ricardo

Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Flamenco is Refreshing! (in reply to tateharmann)

quote:

I also like the general laid-back attitude/playing of flamenco guitarists.

well, on the surface in terms of technique and solo playing yeah there is lot of freedom. But as you get deeper involved there is a lot going on with accompaniment that gets very serious about what is "right or wrong" way to play.

Ricardo

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 13 2012 3:49:39

Munin

Posts: 595
Joined: Sep. 30 2008
From: Hong Kong

RE: Flamenco is Refreshing! (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

quote:

I also like the general laid-back attitude/playing of flamenco guitarists.

well, on the surface in terms of technique and solo playing yeah there is lot of freedom. But as you get deeper involved there is a lot going on with accompaniment that gets very serious about what is "right or wrong" way to play.

Ricardo

I agree. This (especially by classical guitarists) somehow romanticized idea of flamenco being so "free" and much more based on "emotion" and all that can quickly lead to assuming that compás doesn't really matter much anyway, and doesn't need to practiced, and that you can just improvise whatever crap you can come up with in any given palo, and then you're going down a very dangerous road...

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 13 2012 9:32:42

El_Tortuga

Posts: 258
Joined: Aug. 11 2011
From: Canada

RE: Flamenco is Refreshing! (in reply to tateharmann)

In some ways, I was lucky that my very first dealings with flamenco were for accompanying dance. I learned from the very beginning that compás is all-important. If you have bad compás, no real flamencos will take you seriously. All they will say is "learn the compás".

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 13 2012 16:46:00

chester

Posts: 891
Joined: Oct. 29 2010

RE: Flamenco is Refreshing! (in reply to Munin)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Munin
and then you're going down a very dangerous road...

God forbid someone comes up with anything that's original and non-regurgitative. What will the flamenco police think?

Marking rhythm is always important, no matter what genre of music you're playing. Saying that rhythmic intensity or groove doesn't exist in classical music is evidence of ignorance.

The fact that someone plays without balls has nothing to do with the genre of music that he or she are playing. I've seen enough videos here (some of which are hailed as great by the hive mind) of 'flamenco' players that have no fire in their playing. The fact that you're playing for a dancer and someone is yelling in spanish in the background doesn't give you an advantage over any other crappy guitarist out there.

Anyway, as someone with some background in classical guitar - I agree with OP that flamenco is refreshing and it definitely gave me an outlet that classical music couldn't. But there is something in every genre that is missing from the others. That's what makes music so great. Don't throw out your classicals, don't worry too much about the 'rules', just take what you can from wherever you can and try to sound like yourself - not what someone else is telling you you're supposed to sound like

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 13 2012 22:48:14

Munin

Posts: 595
Joined: Sep. 30 2008
From: Hong Kong

RE: Flamenco is Refreshing! (in reply to chester)

quote:

ORIGINAL: chester

Saying that rhythmic intensity or groove doesn't exist in classical music is evidence of ignorance.

I wasn't saying that all. The opposite in fact. But feel free to twist my words to your liking.

quote:

ORIGINAL: chester

God forbid someone comes up with anything that's original and non-regurgitative. What will the flamenco police think?

This really isn't what I was trying to say either. But rather, the old "you should know the rules before you break them". But whenever someone says stuff like "flamenco is about freedom and expression" it reminds me of that Charles Sedlak guy. And the related types on Youtube.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 14 2012 0:19:09

chester

Posts: 891
Joined: Oct. 29 2010

RE: Flamenco is Refreshing! (in reply to manicfingers)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Munin
I wasn't saying that all. The opposite in fact.

quote:

ORIGINAL: manicfingers
There's no parallel in classical music.

No worries Munin, I never said you said that. But where did you say anything that is the 'opposite' of the above statement?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 14 2012 0:26:30

Munin

Posts: 595
Joined: Sep. 30 2008
From: Hong Kong

RE: Flamenco is Refreshing! (in reply to tateharmann)

I edited my previous post. Maybe I didn't say it clearly, but my point was that a lot of classical players seem to become interested in flamenco precisely because they assume it does not adhere to rules as much as classical music. The original poster had some of that in his first post, so that is why I said it.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 14 2012 0:31:19

chester

Posts: 891
Joined: Oct. 29 2010

RE: Flamenco is Refreshing! (in reply to Munin)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Munin
"flamenco is about freedom and expression" it reminds me of that Charles Sedlak guy. And the related types on Youtube.

I might be idealizing, but isn't all art about freedom and expression? Of course once you start collaborating with other people there need to be some ground rules so everyone is on the same page.

I understand your point about hacks misrepresenting themselves, their qualifications, and their knowledge but I wouldn't go about scaring beginners off by telling them they can't do whatever they want. Leave the harsh rules for the intermediates.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 14 2012 2:20:00

kudo

Posts: 2064
Joined: Sep. 3 2009

RE: Flamenco is Refreshing! (in reply to chester)

quote:

God forbid someone comes up with anything that's original and non-regurgitative. What will the flamenco police think?

Esteban!

(with pun intended

Este-ban)

quote:

but isn't all art about freedom and expression?

I agree !

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 14 2012 2:39:10

tateharmann

Posts: 95
Joined: Mar. 12 2012
From: Minnesota, USA

RE: Flamenco is Refreshing! (in reply to tateharmann)

Hey guys,
Thanks for your input. I guess what I meant was that it seems like flamenco guitarists put more emphasis on rhythm (compás) than anything else and it's a new refreshing way to approach the guitar to me. At the end of the day I'm just a lover of guitar music and flamenco really seems to extract a lot of beauty from this wonderful instrument called the guitar. My observations could be completely wrong given that I still don't know flamenco. But I hope to learn something here with you all :)

Thanks,
Tate

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 14 2012 12:27:46

El_Tortuga

Posts: 258
Joined: Aug. 11 2011
From: Canada

RE: Flamenco is Refreshing! (in reply to tateharmann)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tateharmann

Hey guys,
Thanks for your input. I guess what I meant was that it seems like flamenco guitarists put more emphasis on rhythm (compás) than anything else and it's a new refreshing way to approach the guitar to me. At the end of the day I'm just a lover of guitar music and flamenco really seems to extract a lot of beauty from this wonderful instrument called the guitar. My observations could be completely wrong given that I still don't know flamenco. But I hope to learn something here with you all :)

Thanks,
Tate

Follow your instincts, don't listen to gossip and speculation, just let your musical navigator tell where to go next.

_____________________________

http://liveguitartutor.com
http://www.youtube.com/user/Duendito

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 14 2012 17:11:19

tateharmann

Posts: 95
Joined: Mar. 12 2012
From: Minnesota, USA

RE: Flamenco is Refreshing! (in reply to tateharmann)

Thanks Tortuga!

Hey, by the way...what do you suggest I start with out of those falsetas on your site? I love soleá...maybe one of those?

Thanks,
Tate

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Querer es poder.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 14 2012 18:08:30