'Free stroke'rasguedo

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'Free stroke' rasguedo

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Pawo

Posts: 104
Joined: Mar. 15 2010

'Free stroke' rasguedo

Been practicing flamenco technique for about a couple hours a day regular now for two years. Still finding the free (not flicked) rasguedo quite difficult....where you kind of push your fingers without any contact with palm or thumb...(perhaps the index still flicks a bit of thumb)

It is getting easier I might add... but still a bit frustrating because the flicked rasquedo which I can manage better doesn't always sound right for the compass ...it can be too bass heavy.

Any thoughts on different ways of practising this 'free stroke' rasguedo....I suppose it's just a matter of time and efficient practice. Also interested in how long it took any one else to become proficient in this particular technique.

Welcome your responses

Cheers
Dave S

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 14 2012 12:10:30

rombsix

Posts: 7898
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: 'Free stroke' rasguedo (in reply to Pawo)

Pawo - I love you! You described EXACTLY what I wanted to post and thus saved me the time.

I am however going to take it to the next level and post a video showing how each one sounds when I play it (flicking versus NOT).

Cheers!

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Ramzi

http://www.youtube.com/rombsix

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 14 2012 12:28:14

Pawo

Posts: 104
Joined: Mar. 15 2010

RE: 'Free stroke' rasguedo (in reply to rombsix)

By your response Ramzi do I take it you have similar difficulty with this?...or will your video show a brilliantly executed free stroke rasguedo

Anyway I look forward to your video Ramzi....you're a brave soul.....I kind of shy away from posting video but that is the best way of getting feedback I'm sure...I think I'm going to have to do the same one day soon

Cheers

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 14 2012 12:42:47

Rmn

Posts: 308
Joined: May 14 2011

RE: 'Free stroke' rasguedo (in reply to Pawo)

do an exercise daily on this rasgueao. simple chord prog and metronome. it doesn't come after a bit though. but a regular exercise helps a lot. and don't do this exercise too long. might be harmfull

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 14 2012 12:56:25

Pawo

Posts: 104
Joined: Mar. 15 2010

RE: 'Free stroke' rasguedo (in reply to Rmn)

quote:

don't do this exercise too long. might be harmfull

Thanks for this helpful reminder....my tendency is to want to 'get' something so of course that brings the danger of trying too hard.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 14 2012 13:22:21

BarkellWH

Posts: 3464
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: 'Free stroke' rasguedo (in reply to Pawo)

Pawo,

I learned the "free-style" rasgeuado from the beginning and continue to use it almost exclusively. It really is just a matter of continuous practice, over and over. It will eventually come to seem second nature. I actually like it better than the "flicked" version.

Cheers,

Bill

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 14 2012 14:13:13

Ricardo

Posts: 15151
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: 'Free stroke' rasguedo (in reply to Pawo)

You will also eventually realize that you can do this technique much much faster then the one where you flick from thumb. Just keep in mind BOTH have their purpose.

I recommend using the ami or eami in short bursts at first, rather then jumping in to long continuous rolls. Something like alegrias is good, just the first 2 beats then beat 7, that's all, do abanico on 10. See saw on 2 chords for a while with that pattern untill you notice it smoothing out. Later try to add it on over beats 4 and 5, and even 9. Then try to fill 7,8 and 9 stop on 10. At that point you are getting it to where you need for continuous rolls.

When doing bulerias speed with this, try starting i up. So like beats 7,8,9, stop i up on 10. again start with i up and go iami,iami,iami,i. At that point you will be like "damn, I never thought I could go that fast" but you can. But you can't really do that flicking off the thumb.

Ricardo

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 14 2012 14:17:33

Pawo

Posts: 104
Joined: Mar. 15 2010

RE: 'Free stroke' rasguedo (in reply to BarkellWH)

Thanks Bill....I shall continue with my effort

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 14 2012 14:46:39

Pawo

Posts: 104
Joined: Mar. 15 2010

RE: 'Free stroke' rasguedo (in reply to Ricardo)

Ricardo...much appreciated....this reminds me of my last skype lesson with you...then I was using the flicked ras with alegrias and it never really sounded good.

With the Bulerias over beats 7 to 10...at the moment I can do abanico or PAI triplet reasonably fast but it'll be great to be able use iami as you suggest...more 'ammo' the better.

Back to it now....

Cheers

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 14 2012 15:14:33

vigrond

Posts: 161
Joined: Nov. 30 2010

RE: 'Free stroke' rasguedo (in reply to Pawo)

when I was learning I liked to imagine my fingers cut off at the knuckles, and trying to play guitar with the nubs.

this actually let me relax and let go of the unimportant muscles

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 14 2012 15:45:07

Pawo

Posts: 104
Joined: Mar. 15 2010

RE: 'Free stroke' rasguedo (in reply to vigrond)

quote:

imagine my fingers cut off at the knuckles, and trying to play guitar with the nubs.

What ????!!!

Please explain more....it actually sounds interesting.....

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 14 2012 15:51:21

vigrond

Posts: 161
Joined: Nov. 30 2010

RE: 'Free stroke' rasguedo (in reply to Pawo)

quote:

Please explain more....it actually sounds interesting.....

Sorry, I meant the "2nd knuckles" or more technically the "Proximal interphalangeal joints"

Basically the 2nd set of knuckles leading from your real ones towards the end of your fingers.

So if I imagine that someone took an axe and cut all my fingers through at that point, leaving me with no fingertips, I could only wiggle the nubs of my half-fingers around.

This redirects my focus to less 'fine motor control' of the finger and more of the 'entire finger' movement from the bases of the fingers...giving you a more percussive control by relaxing the finger and letting its weight fall through the rasguedo.

Well, that's what helped me anyway.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 14 2012 21:34:53

Pawo

Posts: 104
Joined: Mar. 15 2010

RE: 'Free stroke' rasguedo (in reply to vigrond)

Thanks for the explanation....I like these kind of mental 'tricks' which can help with relaxation etc....

Cheers

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 15 2012 8:52:03

Argaith

Posts: 481
Joined: May 6 2009
From: Iran (living in London)

RE: 'Free stroke' rasguedo (in reply to Pawo)

I can't picture the problem, so I am still waiting to see Rombsix's video.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 15 2012 8:58:38

Munin

Posts: 595
Joined: Sep. 30 2008
From: Hong Kong

RE: 'Free stroke' rasguedo (in reply to Pawo)

My free stroke rasgueados are much better than my rest stroke rasgueados at this point...just came naturally for me, maybe due to playing a lot of bulerias. I think what helps is to flick the fingers off "each other" at first, later on when you have more power, that becomes less necessary.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 15 2012 9:28:10

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: 'Free stroke' rasguedo (in reply to Pawo)

Pawo
Try starting the free stroke rasg. with the fingers on the strings. Very relaxed, and just kind of flick them from the strings instead of the thumb or palm. You can also lye your hand flat on your leg, bend the fingers so that they are ready for a free stroker and away you go. Its a simple tecnique. Dont think to much

Play some palos where free stroke is used a lot. Tientos are very good for and most players incl. myself, play Tientos rasgueados as free stroke. Free strokes are also used a lot in bulerias especially as fill ins between melody stuff.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 15 2012 10:28:05

jman

Posts: 2
Joined: Feb. 15 2012

RE: 'Free stroke' rasguedo (in reply to Pawo)

This short and simple lesson shows a pretty neat technique for a 3 finger rasgueado. It's also very entertaining!!!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 15 2012 10:49:12

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: 'Free stroke' rasguedo (in reply to jman)

quote:

This short and simple lesson shows a pretty neat technique for a 3 finger rasgueado.

Nope jman,

This technique (of drawing the fingers back) is utterly useless for Flamenco.

The video is funny, but you'll just sound crap and break your nails.

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 15 2012 11:42:59

Argaith

Posts: 481
Joined: May 6 2009
From: Iran (living in London)

RE: 'Free stroke' rasguedo (in reply to Ron.M)

Dam'it Ron, you beat me to it

jman - What's wrong with the good old usual a↓m↓i↓i↑ one?
Were you pulling our legs!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 15 2012 12:00:37

Pawo

Posts: 104
Joined: Mar. 15 2010

RE: 'Free stroke' rasguedo (in reply to jman)

Thanks for the video jman....nice one

Anders....helpful pointers....that's actually how I started practising it....resting the fingers on the string to get some resistance ...but now my fingers are a little stronger I find I can play the rasguedo at slow speeds without having to use so much resistance from the strings.

Tientos is one palo I haven't looked at much....it's a kind of a slow tango I take it?

quote:

Dont think to much

I like to analyse playing technique....but I agree things sometimes just need to be practised more.
One of these days I'll post a video of my playing....although I have posted audio in a couple of beginners challenges...

Cheers

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 15 2012 13:12:46

elbabilonio

Posts: 27
Joined: Jul. 26 2011
From: Doha, Qatar

RE: 'Free stroke' rasguedo (in reply to Pawo)

Dave:

Since I'm not an expert, I feel compelled to give you advise

You must not use the same posture when you're using the two different rasgueos (what you called "free" and "flicked"). The "free" one is easier to start when the fingers are not curled as far as they tend to be in the "flicked" one! Instead, the fingers are closer to the strings when they start the strum. See how Pepe does it in his Bulerias (min 1:17):
http://youtu.be/YAvFKHqa2oo

For some physiological reason, when you start like that, you will better utilize the tension in the knuckles to a much better control/strength/speed results, I've found. My evidence is experiential, so take my advice with a grain of salt if you like.

El Babilonio

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 16 2012 6:24:18

Pawo

Posts: 104
Joined: Mar. 15 2010

RE: 'Free stroke' rasguedo (in reply to elbabilonio)

All advice is welcome....helpful point about the curled fingers....or rather uncurled when not flicking....

Cheers

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 16 2012 10:37:46

rombsix

Posts: 7898
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: 'Free stroke' rasguedo (in reply to Pawo)

I haven't read all this thread, so maybe my video presents points that have already been tackled. However I felt having a video might be of some help. I actually feel that the free stroke rajeos sounded better than I expected on this video, and that maybe with more usage and practice, I will get used to their sound and they will get sounding better.

Please comment and discuss nonetheless.

PS: I forgot to edit the video before uploading it, so bare with me (some fluffs here and there).

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Ramzi

http://www.youtube.com/rombsix

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 16 2012 11:11:03

Argaith

Posts: 481
Joined: May 6 2009
From: Iran (living in London)

RE: 'Free stroke' rasguedo (in reply to rombsix)

I can't see the video.
Is it just me or there's a problem?!

A

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 16 2012 11:21:09

rombsix

Posts: 7898
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: 'Free stroke' rasguedo (in reply to Argaith)

quote:

I can't see the video.
Is it just me or there's a problem?!

Seems like it is taking far too long to process for some reason. Piece of crap good for nothing YouTube seems to be having problems. If it doesn't work by tomorrow, I'm going to delete it and re-upload it.

Please check again later!

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Ramzi

http://www.youtube.com/rombsix

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 16 2012 11:41:03

Argaith

Posts: 481
Joined: May 6 2009
From: Iran (living in London)

RE: 'Free stroke' rasguedo (in reply to rombsix)

Cheers Ramzi

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 16 2012 11:42:30

rombsix

Posts: 7898
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: 'Free stroke' rasguedo (in reply to Argaith)

Alright - it's working now.

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Ramzi

http://www.youtube.com/rombsix

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 16 2012 12:23:03

Argaith

Posts: 481
Joined: May 6 2009
From: Iran (living in London)

RE: 'Free stroke' rasguedo (in reply to rombsix)

Ramzi,

Thanks for the video.

First of all your flicking one seems to be perfect in my opinion. I think I might need some advice from you on that

As for your free stroke one, I think I can see where the problem is.
When I started learning this, my hand was aching like hell. I spoke to my teacher who told me not to overdo it to start with. Then, to do one round, take a rest and let your hand relax and then do another. The trick is to bring your 'a' finger (assuming that you’re doing a 3-finger one) down with a downward movement of your wrist and land your pulgar on the 6th string as your ‘a’ is striking the string(s) below. You will then need to lift your P as you’re doing the upstroke with the ‘i’.
I noticed that your P is already resting on the bass string when you start the round. The movement of the wrist helps to make a stronger strike with your 'a' as this finger naturally has limited movement compared to the rest.

Like any other technique, it has to be done slowly to begin with. It might be a bit painful as a result of tension built in the hand but little by little the pain goes away as you get the hang of the technique. You will also be able to rest your P to begin like a lot of players do, if you choose to (Juan Serrano for example).

I hope this makes sense.
Good luck,
A

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 16 2012 13:12:13

rombsix

Posts: 7898
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: 'Free stroke' rasguedo (in reply to Argaith)

Thanks Argaith. About the flick one - I do it exactly like Oscar Herrero explains it in his Paso a Paso Volume I DVD. I can make a video explaining it if you like, but I am sure Oscar does a better job than I do.

About your tips regarding the free stroke one - I'll try that out where you involve the wrist in the motion by starting with the pulgar off the bass string, and then ending with lifting it off the bass string. I will eventually aim at being able to do it like most maestros I see doing it - with having the pulgar flat on the bass string all throughout (unless I am mistaken).

Thanks again!

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Ramzi

http://www.youtube.com/rombsix

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 16 2012 13:44:57

Argaith

Posts: 481
Joined: May 6 2009
From: Iran (living in London)

RE: 'Free stroke' rasguedo (in reply to rombsix)

Ramzi,

You're welcome my friend. I hope I have been helpful!

Due to my restricted time, I have never recorded anything, therefore I even don't know how. Otherwise, I would make a video showing what I tried to explain in words.

Believe me or not, it doesn't take long to get the hang of it and be able to do it without lifting your P off the bass strings. Mind you, I did a lot of practice on my knee at work

As for the Oscar Herrero video explaining the flicking one, would I be able to find it on the Youtube?

All the best,
A

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 16 2012 14:04:46