Flamenco is Refreshing! (Full Version)

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tateharmann -> Flamenco is Refreshing! (Mar. 12 2012 18:00:53)

I have played Classical Guitar for a number of years now and I had hit a slump. I was feeling so tense while playing that I couldn't play for more than an hour at a time and after I would experience bad right hand pains. This also caused me to make a lot of mistakes in my playing. I had a breakthrough when I went to a friends house and picked up a cheap yamaha classical guitar that he had and barely played. It had a low action like a flamenco guitar and I played through many pieces of classical music with pure joy and no pain. I went out and bought a CG172SF and have been loving it. I started learning the rasgueado again that I tried a long time ago (ixam ala Juan Serrano) and find the crispness of the flamenco guitar amazing.

I also like the general laid-back attitude/playing of flamenco guitarists. For example I was listening to Amir John Haddad and at first I heard a lot of "mistakes" like uneven tremolo, string buzz, missed notes etc. But behind all of that is this amazing driving rhythmic pulse that doesn't exist in a lot of classical pieces. What an amazing guitarist he is. I'm going to take a break from classical study and work on some flamenco.

Is that Juan Serrano rasgueado a good one to start with? At this point I kind of find them all awkward but that's really the only one I can do cleanly. I'm going to start to practice the amii one too. Any suggestions are appreciated.



rombsix -> RE: Flamenco is Refreshing! (Mar. 12 2012 18:18:27)

quote:

Any suggestions are appreciated.


First, welcome to the world of flamenco. [:D]

Second, I would suggest you work on TWO ways of playing rasgueados: free stroke ones and rest stroke ones. The "free stroke" ones can also be referred to as "non-flicking" and the "rest stroke" ones can be referred to as "flicking" ones. Check out this thread to understand what I am talking about:

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=190985&p=1&tmode=1&smode=1

I posted a video somewhere in that thread which should illustrate things somehow better.

The reason why you want to practice both is because each is used to achieve a certain effect. Also, practicing the free-stroke ones builds great independence and strength of the fingers. The Juan Serrano one you are doing is great, but also try doing some flicking ones like what you suggested (amii) where you are firing each finger off of the anchor which is the thumb.

Cheers!



El_Tortuga -> RE: Flamenco is Refreshing! (Mar. 12 2012 18:24:28)

Hello tateharmann,

As Ram said, welcome to the world of flamenco. [;)]

If I may be bold and offer a suggestion, my site http://liveguitartutor.com is built for helping students. I have been building my flamenco pages, so I think you'll find some useful material there.

Of course, there's lots happening here at the Foro too!



tateharmann -> RE: Flamenco is Refreshing! (Mar. 12 2012 19:10:13)

Thanks guys for the suggestions! I checked out that thread Ramzi...this will be a great resource. I looked at your site too El_Tortuga and it looks great. I love soleá. I'll try some of those.

Thanks again,

Tate



manicfingers -> RE: Flamenco is Refreshing! (Mar. 12 2012 22:04:52)

Flamenco. Welcome to the Dark Side. What have you done ?

You do realise that Flamenco is the 'Hotel California' of guitar music - you can check out any time, but you can never leave ?

That rhythmic pulsation is called 'Compas' with a funny squiggly thing over the 'a'. Practice with a metronome, always. Find the centre of every beat, and accent, feel what it's like to drift a fraction away from it, before or after. Feel how the groove dies when you don't dominate, ride over the top and control it. There's no parallel in classical music.

My advice would be to just sell your classicals right now. It's only a question of time [:D]



tateharmann -> RE: Flamenco is Refreshing! (Mar. 13 2012 3:02:53)

quote:

My advice would be to just sell your classicals right now. It's only a question of time


LOL...that though has actually already crossed my mind. I have to hang on a little longer though...in case I'm able to get this infectious rhythm out of my head...



Ricardo -> RE: Flamenco is Refreshing! (Mar. 13 2012 3:49:39)

quote:

I also like the general laid-back attitude/playing of flamenco guitarists.


well, on the surface in terms of technique and solo playing yeah there is lot of freedom. But as you get deeper involved there is a lot going on with accompaniment that gets very serious about what is "right or wrong" way to play.

Ricardo



Munin -> RE: Flamenco is Refreshing! (Mar. 13 2012 9:32:42)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

quote:

I also like the general laid-back attitude/playing of flamenco guitarists.


well, on the surface in terms of technique and solo playing yeah there is lot of freedom. But as you get deeper involved there is a lot going on with accompaniment that gets very serious about what is "right or wrong" way to play.

Ricardo


I agree. This (especially by classical guitarists) somehow romanticized idea of flamenco being so "free" and much more based on "emotion" and all that can quickly lead to assuming that compás doesn't really matter much anyway, and doesn't need to practiced, and that you can just improvise whatever crap you can come up with in any given palo, and then you're going down a very dangerous road...



El_Tortuga -> RE: Flamenco is Refreshing! (Mar. 13 2012 16:46:00)

In some ways, I was lucky that my very first dealings with flamenco were for accompanying dance. I learned from the very beginning that compás is all-important. If you have bad compás, no real flamencos will take you seriously. All they will say is "learn the compás". [;)]



chester -> RE: Flamenco is Refreshing! (Mar. 13 2012 22:48:14)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Munin
and then you're going down a very dangerous road...

God forbid someone comes up with anything that's original and non-regurgitative. What will the flamenco police think? [8|]

Marking rhythm is always important, no matter what genre of music you're playing. Saying that rhythmic intensity or groove doesn't exist in classical music is evidence of ignorance.

The fact that someone plays without balls has nothing to do with the genre of music that he or she are playing. I've seen enough videos here (some of which are hailed as great by the hive mind) of 'flamenco' players that have no fire in their playing. The fact that you're playing for a dancer and someone is yelling in spanish in the background doesn't give you an advantage over any other crappy guitarist out there.

Anyway, as someone with some background in classical guitar - I agree with OP that flamenco is refreshing and it definitely gave me an outlet that classical music couldn't. But there is something in every genre that is missing from the others. That's what makes music so great. Don't throw out your classicals, don't worry too much about the 'rules', just take what you can from wherever you can and try to sound like yourself - not what someone else is telling you you're supposed to sound like



Munin -> RE: Flamenco is Refreshing! (Mar. 14 2012 0:19:09)

quote:

ORIGINAL: chester

Saying that rhythmic intensity or groove doesn't exist in classical music is evidence of ignorance.


I wasn't saying that all. The opposite in fact. But feel free to twist my words to your liking. [8|]

quote:

ORIGINAL: chester

God forbid someone comes up with anything that's original and non-regurgitative. What will the flamenco police think?




This really isn't what I was trying to say either. But rather, the old "you should know the rules before you break them". But whenever someone says stuff like "flamenco is about freedom and expression" it reminds me of that Charles Sedlak guy. And the related types on Youtube.



chester -> RE: Flamenco is Refreshing! (Mar. 14 2012 0:26:30)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Munin
I wasn't saying that all. The opposite in fact.
quote:

ORIGINAL: manicfingers
There's no parallel in classical music.

No worries Munin, I never said you said that. But where did you say anything that is the 'opposite' of the above statement?



Munin -> RE: Flamenco is Refreshing! (Mar. 14 2012 0:31:19)

I edited my previous post. Maybe I didn't say it clearly, but my point was that a lot of classical players seem to become interested in flamenco precisely because they assume it does not adhere to rules as much as classical music. The original poster had some of that in his first post, so that is why I said it.



chester -> RE: Flamenco is Refreshing! (Mar. 14 2012 2:20:00)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Munin
"flamenco is about freedom and expression" it reminds me of that Charles Sedlak guy. And the related types on Youtube.

I might be idealizing, but isn't all art about freedom and expression? Of course once you start collaborating with other people there need to be some ground rules so everyone is on the same page.

I understand your point about hacks misrepresenting themselves, their qualifications, and their knowledge but I wouldn't go about scaring beginners off by telling them they can't do whatever they want. Leave the harsh rules for the intermediates.



kudo -> RE: Flamenco is Refreshing! (Mar. 14 2012 2:39:10)

quote:

God forbid someone comes up with anything that's original and non-regurgitative. What will the flamenco police think?

Esteban! [:D][:D](with pun intended [:D] Este-ban)

quote:

but isn't all art about freedom and expression?

I agree !



tateharmann -> RE: Flamenco is Refreshing! (Mar. 14 2012 12:27:46)

Hey guys,
Thanks for your input. I guess what I meant was that it seems like flamenco guitarists put more emphasis on rhythm (compás) than anything else and it's a new refreshing way to approach the guitar to me. At the end of the day I'm just a lover of guitar music and flamenco really seems to extract a lot of beauty from this wonderful instrument called the guitar. My observations could be completely wrong given that I still don't know flamenco. But I hope to learn something here with you all :)

Thanks,
Tate



El_Tortuga -> RE: Flamenco is Refreshing! (Mar. 14 2012 17:11:19)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tateharmann

Hey guys,
Thanks for your input. I guess what I meant was that it seems like flamenco guitarists put more emphasis on rhythm (compás) than anything else and it's a new refreshing way to approach the guitar to me. At the end of the day I'm just a lover of guitar music and flamenco really seems to extract a lot of beauty from this wonderful instrument called the guitar. My observations could be completely wrong given that I still don't know flamenco. But I hope to learn something here with you all :)

Thanks,
Tate


Follow your instincts, don't listen to gossip and speculation, just let your musical navigator tell where to go next.



tateharmann -> RE: Flamenco is Refreshing! (Mar. 14 2012 18:08:30)

Thanks Tortuga!

Hey, by the way...what do you suggest I start with out of those falsetas on your site? I love soleá...maybe one of those?

Thanks,
Tate



El_Tortuga -> RE: Flamenco is Refreshing! (Mar. 14 2012 20:30:55)

Check out ALL of them lol [:D]



tateharmann -> RE: Flamenco is Refreshing! (Mar. 15 2012 13:10:50)

Will do :)

Thanks!



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